How does a martial artist fight a boxer without kicking?

[Cthulhu]

If possible, stay in largo range and destroy, destroy, destroy.

Guntings are your friends!

Cthulhu

PS - and kick the boxer anyway...if you're not cheating, you ain't trying hard enough!

 

[Ty K. Doe]

You know, I'm so glad everybody in this MB (not this thread but the whole MB) is an expert at EVERYTHING. If a martial artist can't beat a street fighter, boxer, or anybody, why am I even throwing my money down the drain taking lessons? Apparently every school but a couple in the whole world is a McDojo. Nobody but a couple of people know how to teach. Every other art is ineffective against street fighting or the latest fighting craze.

Whatever.

 

[tonbo]

How would I fight a boxer without kicking? Easy.

I would hire another boxer to tie him up and then start pounding on him from another angle. Everyone knows that boxers don't train to fight groups. <eg>

Seriously, this kind of speculation is fairly ridiculous. How would a martial artist fight a (real) wrestler? Please. Unless you are a circuit NHB type fighter, who is used to training hours a day, and that is all you do, don't bother. Don't plan on getting in fights with boxers, either. The fact that you may study martial arts does not make you the best fighter in the world.

As has been pointed out, boxers (and I assume we mean people who *seriously* train as boxers, not just "weekenders") *train* for fighting, and they train by doing. Most martial artists don't. They spar, yes, but not with the same intensity (in most cases). All of this has been gone over already, and I gotta say I agree.

Plain and simple: If I don't *have* to fight a boxer, I won't. If I *have* to, it's more than likely going to be on the "street", and I will have my tools available--so will he.

Tell ya how I'd fight a *professional* boxer, tho.....I'd hook up with an agent to get me a multi-million dollar deal, I'd go in the ring, look the boxer in the eye and call him a wimp. After he took his first shot, I'd go down and stay down. When the fight was over, I'd collect my money, go home, and smile a lot.

All said with tongue planted firmly in cheek, of course. I wouldn't want to risk more brain death than I already have....

Peace--

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Ty K. Doe

If a martial artist can't beat a street fighter, boxer, or anybody, why am I even throwing my money down the drain taking lessons?

This is too negative! Remember, this was about a martial artists fighting with both feet tied bbehind his/her back. I prefer the martial arts because they teach one how to deal with weapons and with multiple attackers and how to respond with various levels of force, and because the long-term effects of training in boxing are bad for your health. It is effective, but the question was about a martial artist being restricted in their tools and thrown in a boxing environment.

 

[Bystander]

Thanks for all the input... and keep it coming. I'll tell you why I asked this question. I came from a TKD background, for the most part. I've learned to spar with my right foot forward (I'm right-handed), and I depend on kicks a lot.

Recently, I've joined this boxing/kickboxing/BJJ gym where they do train their fighters (successfully) for competitive mixed martial arts events. For the most part, I feel that this is a much better way for me to go than any of my past TKD training, but that's just my humble opinion, of course. The main instructor also has some relationship with the Inosanto academy as well, and so we learn some Jun Fan trapping techniques. The whole thing is very practical and very much in the vein of the Jeet Kune Do philosophy. And yes, conditioning is a big part of the class routine. I am slowly adding class days to the week as my body is slowly adjusting to this new conditioning. Right now, I'm at 3 days a week, 2.5 hours per day.

Sparring is light contact to the head and full body contact, no elbows, no knees... if you do kickboxing sparring. You can also do boxing sparring which is light head contact and full body contact.

I sparred under kickboxing rules, recently. I have a lot to learn. For one thing, I had a hard time naturally standing the boxer's stance of left foot forward so that you can capitalize on those left jabs. I depended on my right foot for fast kicks to maintain distance and my right cross to enter a single punch whenever I saw an opening. Combinations were easy to do in drills, but I couldn't set my mind to do anything more than a two punch combination... I was too worried about my defense to let the punches go that long. I felt that my defense was excellent, but my offnse left much to be desired. Part of the reason for that was that I didn't want to throw a punch unless I was sure it would make contact. I also had a bad tendency to turn around a lot... either for those spinning backfists or for a straight-line back kick into the gut. I was told that was bad.

I'm going to spar boxing style until I become a better puncher... not depend on my kicks. I want to understand the mentality of punching better, especially when you have fat 12 ounce gloves on your hands.

I didn't post this message to ask a "what if" question in any sense. I was posting this to see if anyone might have had the same experience as me where you want to see if anything you have learned about the martial arts would apply to boxing... or would it simply be inapplicable in that situation.

 

[Damian Mavis]

Ty K Doe, it's not that your wasting your time. People feel that a boxer would dominate a MA because of the amount of training going on. Most MA train 2 hours a week... boxers are training 20 hours a week if not more. Theres a huge discrepency there and it makes a huge difference. You can't train just a few hours a week and then feel confident you could take on someone that lives, breathes and sleeps training. I think that is the main point that make people feel that way.

I train at least 3 hours a day, everyday, and I would not want to go up against a boxer and fight by his rules...it would be like fighting with a blindfold on.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[Ty K. Doe]

O.K. - Given the situation we were presented with, I would assume that it would be a match, not a street fight. Otherwise, I don't believe a MA would throw out his kicks. With that in mind, if you knew you had this match, wouldn't you train just as hard as the boxer, study a boxers moves, techniques, and mentallity. I would definitley hope that at least a background in MA would be enough to make a transition to train like a boxer without using your feet.

Come on, you guys act as if all boxers are like Mike Tyson. No ametuer would be put in a ring with a boxer even close to that level. If we, as MA artists were put in a ring with someone on our same level, I would hope that MA would at least have a fighting chance.

In college we had an anual boxing match that I would box in. Now I'm not a boxer but before this drunken fest I would go to a gym and train for 6 weeks with this guy I knew who was a golden gloves boxer. There not all Lennox Lewis.

Now, I'm not a boxer, I only did that twice, and I know some of you do have boxing experience, but a MA does have a chance. Then again maybe I don't have a clue.

 

[tonbo]

Ty K, I'll agree with you on the "assuming it is a match" and the "wouldn't you train...?" parts.

Yeah, if I knew that I had to fight a boxer, I would train like one. I've seen enough "Rocky" movies to know that you have to train like your opponent does, only more so (also seen all those "deathmatch/bloodsport" type movies....eeesh.).

But seriously, I would do that against *any* match I knew was coming--against *anyone* of *any* style. Try to get into their head, see what to anticipate as their attacks, etc. Very good point.

As far as not all boxers being Lennox Lewis, that is also true. I had to think for a minute about what blocks a boxer might use, and I came up with the forearms covering the face and the bob & weave. I don't think that most boxers use anything like outward blocks or parries.....they just try to get out of the way, if possible.
A good boxer, with good footwork and a good bob & weave could frustrate the hell out of a martial artist. However, on the flip side, a martial artist with good footwork could do the same to the boxer. The MA's blocks might also come in handy, as MAs are more used to the block and counter, if they are trained right.

I would assume that could even things out a bit.

If it all has to be distilled into one single point, I would say that the fight would be a matter of mental and physical training. Who trained harder, who wants it more, and who can go the furthest.

Beyond skill, it's all luck. One lucky punch makes everything else irrelevant.

*shrug*

Peace--

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson

I came onto this thread late. Get as close as safely possible, leave an opening to your head, as the boxer goes for the target go for a double leg takedown. OR you fake a strike upstairs and go for a double leg takedown. OR better yet, you pick up some sort of percussion instrument (stick, hammer or the like) and use that.
I wouldn't go trapping on a boxer as they have tto much experience with hands coming at them. Put them in the no-experience zone...or get the hell away.
Dan Anderson

Good call. I used to hate it when people would shoot in on me so i went to learn how to shoot myself. before that i would sprawl and drop hands or elbows as I went down or go to the guard and work, or even knee to the face as they came in.

Good call on your part. Take them to an area that they are not used to. Then it's up to them to learn to deal with it.

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Ty K. Doe
You know, I'm so glad everybody in this MB (not this thread but the whole MB) is an expert at EVERYTHING. If a martial artist can't beat a street fighter, boxer, or anybody, why am I even throwing my money down the drain taking lessons? Apparently every school but a couple in the whole world is a McDojo. Nobody but a couple of people know how to teach. Every other art is ineffective against street fighting or the latest fighting craze.Whatever.

Don't be so angry. The reason i know is because I was in that situation. That's why from boxing i started to learn Kenpo/Systema/Judo/Arnis etc because there is always a range that someone can take you into that if you don't grasp it, he'll eat you alive.

TKD has great kicks. Man, some of the guys I see even in Olympic stuff have kicks that when put together with other things rock. Any time anyone gets off the couch and gets involved in something that's great anyway!

My point is that many Boxers and Judoka and BJJ guys are over all better conditioned and better at what they do because they apply it in real life for the most part and you can't bluff your way through those arts. (Not many mcdojo's in those arts)

I think that what people are saying is that when you remove the kicks you disadvatage yourself as TKD guy because that's one of your main weapons. If you look at it this way. If two armless guys go at it then the boxer will lose and the TKD would whoop his @ss!

 

[Damian Mavis]

"If two armless guys go at it then the boxer will lose and the TKD would whoop his @ss!"

hahahahahahaha!

Somehow I don't think that makes many TKD artists feel any better omg I spit my juice out all over the floor. Damn you Gou!

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Damian Mavis
Damn you Gou!

You have no idea how often I hear that...:wavey:

 

[Baoquan]

IMHO, this thread is concerned with the question, can one fight to an opponents strength, if forced to?

The answer is yes, but its bloody hard. It's not that boxing is better then any other art, but its very good at what it does. What it does is create very highly conditioned upper-body martial artists. Boxing has serious weaknesses when examined as a complete self defense system - which it is not, and has never claimed to be. If thats what you want, look somewhere else.

There's saying my dad, who is a long time trainer of many successful boxers, is very fond of saying. "Everyone has a plan until they get hit. Its what you do after that that matters."

You take what you got, no matter where it comes from, and you do what you can with it.

my 0.02c.

 

[Shadowdean]

No, I think you have more than a boxer still (though anybody seriously studying combative martial arts should take up boxing for a bit). We have open hand strikes, ridge hands, elbows, etc. We also have a wider range of targets (the entire body if taking martial arts and boxing rules stricktly).

 

[Ty K. Doe]

According to this site Jhoon Rhee taught Muhammed Ali Tae Kwon Do. I guess Ali found it usefull.

http://www3.bc.sympatico.ca/KelseyWall/jhoon.htm

 

[IFAJKD]

Great thread:

I haven't read all of it but I would say if you can't kick or go to the ground then you trap and clinch from standing. using elbows, knees and headbutts. It shouldn't last long if you don't get tagged going in

 

[Carbon]

I still think that a Muay Thai fighter would rock a TKD practioners world.

I don't know since I've seen it, that Muay Thai fighters are just crazy with relentless attacks.

I was reading in black belt magaize how this white guy went to Thai Land to train at a very prestigous gym.

He looked so goofy, and the guy would of whooped his @**.

Has anyone seen the movie with billy blanks where they make real fight videos, and this guy goes up to the american and beats him up and then tells him how he isn't even considered a good fighter.

And that Billy Blanks would own him.

 

[sweeper]

If I recall correctly Thai boxing rules don't alow for direct kicks (side kicks, thrust kicks, etc) to the legs, only oblique kicks like the round kick.. Don't know for sure but I thought I read that somewhere any thai boxer wana correct me?

Anyway if that is the case a fighter might have a chance if you were to fight with diffrent rules.. (allowing for stop kicks) also I think I read that sweeps are illegal? Hmm.. might have just read one organisations rules though..

 

[Damian Mavis]

This thread was about boxers right?

Anyway, if were talking about Muay thai now.... did you say you didnt think sweeps were allowed in Muay Thai sweeper?

The rule your thinking about is no direct kicks to the knee joint...meaning side kick the knee trying to hyper extend it backwards and causing permanent damage. I often see direct kicks to the upper thigh and torso of course.

Other than that anything goes for kicks.... in the ring I'm allowed to throw side kick, axe kick, hook kick, turning side kick, flying 360 freakazoid kick...whatever I want! All targets are available except straight attacks to the knee.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[sweeper]

I stand corrected than.

As to sweeps I read somewhere that a sweep (like with the ball of the foot) was illegal, however round kicks to the lower leg wee used for the same purpose.

Out of curiosity can you throw stops and side kicks to the shin and foot? and can you stopkick someone's attack below the knee?