Are competitive Sport Martial Artists superior?

[Steve]

Really cool stuff.

Interestingly, Judo is a good example of a MA where competition rules heavily limits its methodology and actually begins to make it less effective over time.

More effective at what they apply and less effective at what they don't, for sure. Easiest way to avoid that is to compete in other rule sets. Judoka would be welcome to compete at BJJ competitions. Some do, and they are more well rounded as a result.

I know this is probably obvious to some of us, but I think it needs to be said occasionally in threads like this. My concern is that some folks will misunderstand, and think that the answer to overly focused rulesets that may lead to bad habits outside of the ruleset is less application. Rather, it's more application.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

maybe take your own advice this has nothing to do with black or white people. It was never mentioned by me at any time. Just to be clear on this and that you understand, blindness is a condition that can affect any race or creed.
Hope this helps

He never said it had anything to do with race. He used reference to skin color as analogy. I'm not sure how anything in his comment is all that controversial. He states it stronger than I might, but that's just personality. And nothing in his post seems triggered, so the "take your own advice" line seems a bit strong.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

More effective at what they apply and less effective at what they don't, for sure. Easiest way to avoid that is to compete in other rule sets. Judoka would be welcome to compete at BJJ competitions. Some do, and they are more well rounded as a result.

I know this is probably obvious to some of us, but I think it needs to be said occasionally in threads like this. My concern is that some folks will misunderstand, and think that the answer to overly focused rulesets that may lead to bad habits outside of the ruleset is less application. Rather, it's more application.

I think the issue is that sometimes it sounds like folks are saying any competition is bound to make people better in general. And that's only true in the area the competition supports. An overly-obvious extreme is that participating regularly in, and training for, TKD competition is unilkely to help (and might actually hurt) grappling skills. So finding a ruleset or rulesets that support what you want to develop is important - whether it's an official competition or sparring/rolling/randori in the dojo.

 

[caped crusader]

He never said it had anything to do with race. He used reference to skin color as analogy. I'm not sure how anything in his comment is all that controversial. He states it stronger than I might, but that's just personality. And nothing in his post seems triggered, so the "take your own advice" line seems a bit strong.

sorry but i disagree. he talks about using common sense. so why use skin colour am i missing something here? the man who the joke was about is Black so he just used the black & white thing randomly ..get real will ya !

 

[caped crusader]

Maybe you Mods on here should stop cherry picking. mention the word BI and you get banned for "Homophobic" remarks. when it wasn´t and a ban ! The same guy who whined about it openly makes a clearly sick joke about a blind man and nothing is said...LOL

 

[Steve]

He never said it had anything to do with race. He used reference to skin color as analogy. I'm not sure how anything in his comment is all that controversial. He states it stronger than I might, but that's just personality. And nothing in his post seems triggered, so the "take your own advice" line seems a bit strong.

Well, we were talking about competition and now we're talking about race and disability. Not because @caped crusader brought it up....

I think the issue is that sometimes it sounds like folks are saying any competition is bound to make people better in general. And that's only true in the area the competition supports. An overly-obvious extreme is that participating regularly in, and training for, TKD competition is unilkely to help (and might actually hurt) grappling skills. So finding a ruleset or rulesets that support what you want to develop is important - whether it's an official competition or sparring/rolling/randori in the dojo.

We can safely say that competing in TKD isn't going to improve your grappling. But I don't think this is even a hard thing to figure out. It's not a mystery. Will TKD competition improve my grappling? No. Will it improve the skills I train and then apply in TKD competition? For sure.

The problem isn't the ruleset, no matter how restrictive. The problem is people trying to sell a product by exaggerating that product's benefits. Come train in my TKD school. We compete in WTF competitions regularly... AND, we have rediscovered lost grappling techniques that I incorporate to make you an expert in grappling. Come train at my Aikido school, where you will learn really cool, high amplitude throws and falls, and by the time your hair grows long enough to put it up in a man-bun, you'll be totally chill and at peace with the universe.... oh, and it's really effective in a fight, too. Come train at my BJJ school, where I will also teach you the lost art of grapple-kicking.

These are obviously extreme examples, but it works all the way down to complimentary skillsets. A judoka who regularly competes in BJJ will see his newaza improve, which will improve his overall competency as a grappler and make him more effective within the judo ruleset as well as outside of it. A BJJ jiu-jitiero who regularly competes in Judo or in Wrestling will see his stand-up grappling improve, which will lead him to be more effective in BJJ comps, as well as outside of them.

 

[Hanzou]

More effective at what they apply and less effective at what they don't, for sure. Easiest way to avoid that is to compete in other rule sets. Judoka would be welcome to compete at BJJ competitions. Some do, and they are more well rounded as a result.

Agreed, but the IJF has even forbidden Judoka from competing in MMA and BJJ competitions unless they get permission. This really has a chilling effect on the individual dojo level, forcing some dojos that rely on competition to stick doggedly to the rules even when doing free sparring.

While it sucks for Judo, it benefits BJJ because we're starting to see a small flood of former Judoka migrating over to BJJ as Judo instructors, which does nothing but enrich BJJ and make it a better martial art. For former Judoka, it allows them to practice Kano's art without all the crap stacked on top of it by an oppressive governing body. I'm all for it, and I hope the IJF continues to be complete morons going forward.

I know this is probably obvious to some of us, but I think it needs to be said occasionally in threads like this. My concern is that some folks will misunderstand, and think that the answer to overly focused rulesets that may lead to bad habits outside of the ruleset is less application. Rather, it's more application.

Agreed.

 

[Hanzou]

I think the issue is that sometimes it sounds like folks are saying any competition is bound to make people better in general. And that's only true in the area the competition supports. An overly-obvious extreme is that participating regularly in, and training for, TKD competition is unilkely to help (and might actually hurt) grappling skills. So finding a ruleset or rulesets that support what you want to develop is important - whether it's an official competition or sparring/rolling/randori in the dojo.

For me, it's simply the results. Even competitive TKD practitioners have some amazing kicks, and I would argue that their kicking ability would be superior to a non-competitive TKD practitioner. If that competitive TKD practitioner went to MMA and competed even on the amateur level, I'd put them above your typical black belt martial artist who never competed.

The thing is, we can see this in practice. In BJJ we have an elite level of practitioner, and they visit gyms, give seminars, and proceed to tap out the entire gym, including the instructors with relative ease. The top MMA fighters would literally kill local karate and kung fu instructors easily.

Even below that, the competition teams in Bjj gyms tend to be the best practitioners overall. They also tend to be younger, faster, stronger, and have more free time to train, so obviously they're going to get better more quickly. Competitive purple belts can give non-competitive black belts a run for their money, if not submit them outright.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Maybe you Mods on here should stop cherry picking. mention the word BI and you get banned for "Homophobic" remarks. when it wasn´t and a ban ! The same guy who whined about it openly makes a clearly sick joke about a blind man and nothing is said...LOL
View attachment 27606

Keep in mind that there are different levels of warnings we give based on points; if you get above a certain number of points, it can result in a suspension/ban. We give them based off the infraction in question, so if one person get 10 points and someone else gets 9 (or both get 9, but one already had a few points from a previous infraction that haven't expired yet), one person may be suspended while another is not.

Depending on how busy the mods are, this can take a tiny bit from when we're alerted to a remark (I happened to see this because we were alerted to a post, not specifying which one, in this thread and was reviewing the thread), as not all of us are on all the time, and we want to make sure enough of us are in agreement/discuss it before we respond. That means that depending on our schedules, we may make a decision on a report in the same day, or it may take a couple days/a week.

Lastly, we don't share results of reports except in very rare occasions. So unless you notice someone is gone, or someone directly tells others about a warning they received, other members will not know if you/someone else got a warning. Even if someone is gone, oftentimes people do disappear from the site for a few weeks/months/years/forever without warning before coming back, so you don't know for sure why unless they state it to you.

Lastly, if you see something that bothers you, report it. Most of us are not reading every thread (though some are), and those that do read the thread in question probably aren't looking at it with their mod hats on.

 

[Steve]

Agreed, but the IJF has even forbidden Judoka from competing in MMA and BJJ competitions unless they get permission. This really has a chilling effect on the individual dojo level, forcing some dojos that rely on competition to stick doggedly to the rules even when doing free sparring.

While it sucks for Judo, it benefits BJJ because we're starting to see a small flood of former Judoka migrating over to BJJ as Judo instructors, which does nothing but enrich BJJ and make it a better martial art. For former Judoka, it allows them to practice Kano's art without all the crap stacked on top of it by an oppressive governing body. I'm all for it, and I hope the IJF continues to be complete morons going forward.



Agreed.

I hadn't heard that. Man, that's a short sighted policy, for sure.

 

[dvcochran]

maybe take your own advice this has nothing to do with black or white people. It was never mentioned by me at any time. Just to be clear on this and that you understand, blindness is a condition that can affect any race or creed.
Hope this helps

Totally get this. Just used it as an example, as said.
Pretty sure everyone knows blindness is no respecter of person.

 

[caped crusader]

Keep in mind that there are different levels of warnings we give based on points; if you get above a certain number of points, it can result in a suspension/ban. We give them based off the infraction in question, so if one person get 10 points and someone else gets 9 (or both get 9, but one already had a few points from a previous infraction that haven't expired yet), one person may be suspended while another is not.

Depending on how busy the mods are, this can take a tiny bit from when we're alerted to a remark (I happened to see this because we were alerted to a post, not specifying which one, in this thread and was reviewing the thread), as not all of us are on all the time, and we want to make sure enough of us are in agreement/discuss it before we respond. That means that depending on our schedules, we may make a decision on a report in the same day, or it may take a couple days/a week.

Lastly, we don't share results of reports except in very rare occasions. So unless you notice someone is gone, or someone directly tells others about a warning they received, other members will not know if you/someone else got a warning. Even if someone is gone, oftentimes people do disappear from the site for a few weeks/months/years/forever without warning before coming back, so you don't know for sure why unless they state it to you.

Lastly, if you see something that bothers you, report it. Most of us are not reading every thread (though some are), and those that do read the thread in question probably aren't looking at it with their mod hats on.

Make me a Mod.. i will be the Sheriff

 

[Hyoho]

This was a question asked in my other thread and I thought it warranted its own thread. There is a slight disdain for sports and competition among traditionalists within the martial arts. It even pops up in my style Brazilian Jiujitsu, despite the fact that what brought Bjj to prominence was sport and competition. There is a group of people within Bjj who dislike what competition has done to the art, and like to hammer in the idea that sport dilutes the self defense aspect of the art.

While there is some merit to that point, there is another inescapable fact; Competition and sport (particularly MMA) have kept Bjj "honest" in that it forces the style to never drift too far into having its own head up its ****. For example, after Bjj exploded on the scene via the early UFCs, numerous other grappling systems emerged to try to supplant it as the main grappling art of the emerging sport. At first, Bjj exponents (mainly the Gracies) pushed a sort of purity message and refused to embrace other grappling styles, saying that their system of grappling was superior to all others. However, after the Gracies got beat by grapplers who had cross-trained in Bjj, other Bjj schools embraced other grappling forms. Over two decades later, it would be hard to argue that Bjj isn't an overall better martial art than it was when it first exploded on the scene in the 1990s.

Beyond general MA improvement, it would be a bit silly to believe that your average MA hobbyist is a better martial artist than a professional fighter. Again, when I look into my own martial art, I look at guys like Ryan Gordon, Keenan Cornelius, JT Torres, Marcelo Garcia, Ryan Hall, etc. and recognize that they would absolutely destroy me. There are videos of competitive Bjj players who roll against entire schools and submit students in that school within a matter of minutes if not seconds. Even the black belt instructors are easily dealt with, and considering that I would struggle with the average Bjj black belt, the fact that these people are several magnitudes better than them is something to think about.

Which brings us back to the general question; Are competitive sport martial artists superior to non competitive martial artists? I simply can't see how they aren't. Beyond grappling, look at the various showcases of traditional Chinese martial artists going up against MMA and sport fighters. Universally, the traditional martial artists lose, and many of the people they lose to aren't even professional fighters. Pushing this up a notch, if Jon Jones or Khabib walked into your dojo, could your instructor beat them in a fight? Bringing this down a notch would your traditional karate instructor be able to stand toe to toe against an amateur boxer? These are questions to consider because we continue to run across people who say that since their style includes wrist locks, throws, kicks, and kata, they have an advantage over a boxer because "the boxer only has punches".

I would argue that the boxer has more than punches. They have conditioning, durability, endurance, and fighting experience.

Anyway, I'm interested in your thoughts.

Well yes if you consider that in my dojo of around 55 members practicing twice weekday and all weekend would "fight off" just before competition to see who would represent on a squad. And that all members had been watched by teachers as they started out as elementary kids. and that the cream of those got into the best dojo with a possible scholarship to go with it. All are natural born fighters and many go on to win nationals as adults. It does mean that we all cant practice to varying degrees. First and foremost we all love what we do

 

[Gerry Seymour]

We can safely say that competing in TKD isn't going to improve your grappling. But I don't think this is even a hard thing to figure out. It's not a mystery. Will TKD competition improve my grappling? No. Will it improve the skills I train and then apply in TKD competition? For sure.

The problem isn't the ruleset, no matter how restrictive. The problem is people trying to sell a product by exaggerating that product's benefits. Come train in my TKD school. We compete in WTF competitions regularly... AND, we have rediscovered lost grappling techniques that I incorporate to make you an expert in grappling. Come train at my Aikido school, where you will learn really cool, high amplitude throws and falls, and by the time your hair grows long enough to put it up in a man-bun, you'll be totally chill and at peace with the universe.... oh, and it's really effective in a fight, too. Come train at my BJJ school, where I will also teach you the lost art of grapple-kicking.

These are obviously extreme examples, but it works all the way down to complimentary skillsets. A judoka who regularly competes in BJJ will see his newaza improve, which will improve his overall competency as a grappler and make him more effective within the judo ruleset as well as outside of it. A BJJ jiu-jitiero who regularly competes in Judo or in Wrestling will see his stand-up grappling improve, which will lead him to be more effective in BJJ comps, as well as outside of them.

Yeah, not really anything in that post that contradicts anything I said.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Agreed, but the IJF has even forbidden Judoka from competing in MMA and BJJ competitions unless they get permission. This really has a chilling effect on the individual dojo level, forcing some dojos that rely on competition to stick doggedly to the rules even when doing free sparring.

If that's a real thing, it's a horrid decision, IMO.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

For me, it's simply the results. Even competitive TKD practitioners have some amazing kicks, and I would argue that their kicking ability would be superior to a non-competitive TKD practitioner. If that competitive TKD practitioner went to MMA and competed even on the amateur level, I'd put them above your typical black belt martial artist who never competed.

The thing is, we can see this in practice. In BJJ we have an elite level of practitioner, and they visit gyms, give seminars, and proceed to tap out the entire gym, including the instructors with relative ease. The top MMA fighters would literally kill local karate and kung fu instructors easily.

Even below that, the competition teams in Bjj gyms tend to be the best practitioners overall. They also tend to be younger, faster, stronger, and have more free time to train, so obviously they're going to get better more quickly. Competitive purple belts can give non-competitive black belts a run for their money, if not submit them outright.

Yes. That's pretty much what I was trying to get at. Competition generally pushes people to improve in the areas they are competing in. And competitors are a good place to find difficult partners (those you can provide you problems, not those who are problems) for the reasons you mention.

 

[Steve]

Yeah, not really anything in that post that contradicts anything I said.

That's true.

 

[Hanzou]

If that's a real thing, it's a horrid decision, IMO.

It's been happening for awhile;

International Judo Federation Prohibits Judo Athletes To Compete in BJJ & other Grappling Competitions

The IJF International Judo Federation has just sent an email to all its official schools worldwide with a warning: ranked Judo athletes may not participate in other grappling competitions. The email comes from the Federation president with the attachment coming from the International Judo...

www.bjjee.com

French Judo Federation: Immediate Ban for all Judokas Teaching MMA

This week it was announced that the European Judo Championships , scheduled for April in Glasgow, would not take place in the Scottish city. This occurred only eight weeks before the event is due to take place following a row over a sponsorship agreement with the Ultimate Fighting Championship...

www.bjjee.com

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I'm all for it, and I hope the IJF continues to be complete morons going forward.

I'm not. The IJF sucks in general; part of the reason my old judo school stopped competing. But it leads ultimately to less competition, and their antiquated rules harm judo as a whole, even if they help BJJ.

 

[Hanzou]

I'm not. The IJF sucks in general; part of the reason my old judo school stopped competing. But it leads ultimately to less competition, and their antiquated rules harm judo as a whole, even if they help BJJ.

I thoroughly enjoyed my free Judo classes at my old BJJ gym.