The hatred of boot scooting

[Hanzou]

Well since we’ve discussed butt scooting and guard pulling in Bjj comps, we can discuss how much it’s despised in MMA fights;

https://www.reddit.com/r/MMA/comments/b6fypy

It’s far less common in MMA, but a few fighters like Shinya Aoiki, Kron Gracie, and Masakazu Imanari specialize in it.

 

[drop bear]

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think you have it turned around. If you're suggesting that BJJ competitors shouldn't pull guard in competition because it's a bad idea outside of competition, as Kung Fu Wang did and you seemed to agree, you have to first establish that it's true and not just something you're making up. I.e., you have to establish that it actually happens and that there is a real (and not theoretical) adverse effect.

Who's John?

I didn't suggest they shouldn't ever pull guard, nor that doing so was likely to cause issues outside competition. I don't like the pulling guard and insisting on remaining seated and nearly passive when pulling guard fails to bring the opponent.

 

[elder999]

 

[Steve]

I didn't suggest they shouldn't ever pull guard, nor that doing so was likely to cause issues outside competition.

Who's John? You said you agreed with John. I don't know who that is, but when you agreed with him, I presumed you were agreeing with Kung Fu Wang (is that John?). If so, he was talking about sitting to guard outside of competition.

If I misunderstood you because I misconstrued with whom you were agreeing, my bad. That said, I have no idea what your opinions actually are. You seem to agree with everyone, including me, at this point.

I don't like the pulling guard and insisting on remaining seated and nearly passive when pulling guard fails to bring the opponent.

Sure, I don't like a lack of action, either. I just blame the guy who's standing up and stalling in clear violation of the rules, and not the guy who's patiently waiting for his opponent to decide he wants to grapple.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Who's John? You said you agreed with John. I don't know who that is, but when you agreed with him, I presumed you were agreeing with Kung Fu Wang (is that John?). If so, he was talking about sitting to guard outside of competition.

If I misunderstood you because I misconstrued with whom you were agreeing, my bad. That said, I have no idea what your opinions actually are. You seem to agree with everyone, including me, at this point.


Sure, I don't like a lack of action, either. I just blame the guy who's standing up and stalling in clear violation of the rules, and not the guy who's patiently waiting for his opponent to decide he wants to grapple.

For clarification, Kung fu wang's first name is John.

 

[Hanzou]

To be fair, the rules of that “bout” were dumb.

Dumb rules breed dumb results.

 

[MetalBoar]

Since it's within the rules I think it's valid and sensible to butt scoot in competition if you can make it work to your advantage.

That being said, it's not a problem I have any interest in solving. If I were doing BJJ competitions and butt scooting was something I had to spend a lot of time training against I'd quickly lose interest in competing. Sure, it might teach me some things about grappling in general but it seems like an utter waste (for my interests) to devote much time to it. I'm never going to scoot across the floor on my butt as a means of self defense and in the unlikely event that someone comes butt rutching after me like a dog with impacted anal glands I'm going to just run away, or maybe hit them with a bar stool or something if running isn't an option. In a SD situation I'm never going to get down on the floor and try to grapple with them.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Who's John? You said you agreed with John. I don't know who that is, but when you agreed with him, I presumed you were agreeing with Kung Fu Wang (is that John?). If so, he was talking about sitting to guard outside of competition.

If I misunderstood you because I misconstrued with whom you were agreeing, my bad. That said, I have no idea what your opinions actually are. You seem to agree with everyone, including me, at this point.


Sure, I don't like a lack of action, either. I just blame the guy who's standing up and stalling in clear violation of the rules, and not the guy who's patiently waiting for his opponent to decide he wants to grapple.

I was pretty sure If made my opinion clear. And that it was that: opinion. If someone has a different opinion, I’m quite okay with that. I’m just not all that into seeking conflict where it isn’t productive.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Who's John?

@Kung Fu Wang - sorry, I should have been clearer when I referred to him.

 

[Ivan]

https://www.reddit.com/r/martialarts/comments/qbtiw0

This video has been making the rounds on the internet. It shows a sport BJJ match where one of the competitors enters seated guard and his opponent refuses to engage and even mocks his opponent. Eventually he engages and is EASILY submitted by the BJJ exponent via seated guard.

Now, I've seen plenty of grapplers complain about this tactic, saying that it's "cheating" or "cowardly". However, within the rules of sport BJJ, it's completely legal, and frankly effective. In addition, the rules state that a grappler must engage or they will lose the match, which makes sense. You can't simply run away from your opponent because you don't want to engage their guard.

I don't know, the general attitude of disgust towards how sport BJJ operates is just funny to me. If you want to compete in a sport BJJ competition, you need to learn how to deal with sport BJJ rules. There is an argument that such tactics can water down the self defense portion, but many people who compete aren't doing it for SD purposes. They're doing it for sport. Anyway, I just wanted to bring this up for possible discussion, because I think it beings up the typical sport vs. traditional MA debate, and a style vs style debate because plenty of wrestlers and Judoka absolutely despise these tactics, but due to the lack of other forms of grappling competitions, active compete in BJJ competitions because they're more widespread.

I've never understood it myself. I keep seeing memes making fun of people who pull guard and butt scoot. I've been doing BJJ for about 6 months now, and due to experience in other martial arts, I have made steady progress and avoided some of the more common beginner mistakes. As of now, the one thing that I am remotely alright at since I am still a beginner is sweeps from guards when the other person is standing up. My personal favourite is the tripod sweep.

As a result of this, I prefer to butt scoot and pull guard, rather than pass guard, because I can easily gain a more favourable position after a sweep. Since I am still a beginner, I am no good at submissions, so naturally, I'm better at defence than offence. No one in my gym has had an issue with this. I feel as if the reason people dislike butt scooting is that it avoids the need to fight for a takedown. I might have the tiniest experience in Japanese Jiujitsu and some Judo, but by no means am I a takedown expert. So if I can avoid fighting an opponent in a field in which he is stronger at I will, and I don't see why I shouldn't; no reason to take a fight I can't win.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

econd, we could discuss "outside the sport" if that's what you'd like to do. But step one in that would be to provide some kind of evidence that the thing happening in the sport is also happening outside of the sport. So, for example, if you have concerns that a TKD'ist is getting smashed in the face because he keeps his hands down in fights outside of the sport, and can provide some evidence that it happens, that's an interesting conversation to have. In this case, though, I've not seen a lot of evidence that Jiu Jitiero are pulling guard in street fights. I'm not saying it isn't happening... only that I have neither seen nor heard about it happening.

I've never understood it myself. I keep seeing memes making fun of people who pull guard and butt scoot. I've been doing BJJ for about 6 months now, and due to experience in other martial arts, I have made steady progress and avoided some of the more common beginner mistakes. As of now, the one thing that I am remotely alright at since I am still a beginner is sweeps from guards when the other person is standing up. My personal favourite is the tripod sweep.

As a result of this, I prefer to butt scoot and pull guard, rather than pass guard, because I can easily gain a more favourable position after a sweep. Since I am still a beginner, I am no good at submissions, so naturally, I'm better at defence than offence. No one in my gym has had an issue with this. I feel as if the reason people dislike butt scooting is that it avoids the need to fight for a takedown. I might have the tiniest experience in Japanese Jiujitsu and some Judo, but by no means am I a takedown expert. So if I can avoid fighting an opponent in a field in which he is stronger at I will, and I don't see why I shouldn't; no reason to take a fight I can't win.

I have no issue with competitors pulling guard and butt-scooting in competition if that's what the rules reward. I have no particular knowledge about whether there's a significant number of BJJ practitioners attempting to pull guard in street fights. (Although I do think that in most cases that would be a poor idea.)

What I am concerned about is the situation where a noticeable percentage of BJJ students don't learn effective takedowns because they don't need them for competition and thus they don't have that tool available to them if they ever need it for self-defense. I have seen that happen and I think it presents a danger of schools which teach only BJJ the sport and not BJJ the martial art becoming more and more prevalent. I think that would be a shame.

BTW, I do like the rulesets which treat guard pulling by one competitor as a takedown for the other guy. The way I see it, the point scoring rules are supposed to reward positional advantage. Therefore the points should be the same regardless of how you get there. Suppose we start one match and I immediately pull guard so you are standing over me. Suppose we start another match and you pull guard, then sweep me and end up standing over me in my guard. We end up in the same position either way. Why should one path to the position get you points and the other doesn't?

 

[Steve]

I have no issue with competitors pulling guard and butt-scooting in competition if that's what the rules reward. I have no particular knowledge about whether there's a significant number of BJJ practitioners attempting to pull guard in street fights. (Although I do think that in most cases that would be a poor idea.)

I think the idea is that the ruleset (at least in IBJJF) is agnostic. It neither rewards nor discourages it. Because sitting guard is still just guard, which is theoretically a neutral position, equivalent to both competitors standing, or on the mat in any other version of full guard (e.g., closed guard).

What I am concerned about is the situation where a noticeable percentage of BJJ students don't learn effective takedowns because they don't need them for competition and thus they don't have that tool available to them if they ever need it for self-defense. I have seen that happen and I think it presents a danger of schools which teach only BJJ the sport and not BJJ the martial art becoming more and more prevalent. I think that would be a shame.

As others are fond of saying around here, not everyone trains for the same reasons. If being as well rounded as possible is the goal, folks will naturally appreciate being pushed to address any gaps in their training. Though, as was brought up earlier, neglecting standing grappling may pay off early, but will eventually be limiting even to pure BJJ competitors, as at a high level they will be forced to excel in all areas of grappling. Or said another way, you won't be competitive as a black belt in the Pan Ams or Mundials, if you aren't comfortable on your feet. A crazy good guard game will only get you so far.

BTW, I do like the rulesets which treat guard pulling by one competitor as a takedown for the other guy. The way I see it, the point scoring rules are supposed to reward positional advantage. Therefore the points should be the same regardless of how you get there. Suppose we start one match and I immediately pull guard so you are standing over me. Suppose we start another match and you pull guard, then sweep me and end up standing over me in my guard. We end up in the same position either way. Why should one path to the position get you points and the other doesn't?

I think that sounds like an interesting ruleset. I'm always for more rulesets, and don't think one is better than another. That said, if the point rules are to reward positional advantage, logically that would eliminate takedown points completely. If we consider that being in guard is not a positional advantage for either person, logically, points/advantage points should only be awarded to reward actual positional advantage.

So, if I took you down and end up in your halfguard, I should get an advantage. And I would receive points equivalent to a guard pass if take you down and land in side control. I'm actually warming up to that idea... and would take this overemphasis on takedowns out of play entirely.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I think the idea is that the ruleset (at least in IBJJF) is agnostic. It neither rewards nor discourages it. Because sitting guard is still just guard, which is theoretically a neutral position, equivalent to both competitors standing, or on the mat in any other version of full guard (e.g., closed guard).


As others are fond of saying around here, not everyone trains for the same reasons. If being as well rounded as possible is the goal, folks will naturally appreciate being pushed to address any gaps in their training. Though, as was brought up earlier, neglecting standing grappling may pay off early, but will eventually be limiting even to pure BJJ competitors, as at a high level they will be forced to excel in all areas of grappling. Or said another way, you won't be competitive as a black belt in the Pan Ams or Mundials, if you aren't comfortable on your feet. A crazy good guard game will only get you so far.


I think that sounds like an interesting ruleset. I'm always for more rulesets, and don't think one is better than another. That said, if the point rules are to reward positional advantage, logically that would eliminate takedown points completely. If we consider that being in guard is not a positional advantage for either person, logically, points/advantage points should only be awarded to reward actual positional advantage.

So, if I took you down and end up in your halfguard, I should get an advantage. And I would receive points equivalent to a guard pass if take you down and land in side control. I'm actually warming up to that idea... and would take this overemphasis on takedowns out of play entirely.

Whether you reward takedowns or not would depend one whether you view being on top of guard as an superior position. If you regard it as totally neutral, then no points for a takedown, no penalty for a guard pull, and no points for a sweep that just lands you in top of guard. If you do regard top of guard as positionally superior, then the points should be the same for a takedown or sweep that doesn't get you past guard and should match the penalty for a guard pull.

Now whether you regard being on top of guard as positionally superior depends on the question, superior for what? In a context where striking is allowed, then top is better. The spirit of the original scoring rules for BJJ was meant to reward positional advantages which could be used for striking in a real fight, which is why full mount and knee ride are rewarded more than side control, even though side control is arguably superior for controlling an opponent. If I were designing the rules, I would regard top of guard as superior and award points accordingly. However if you are designing a submission grappling sport with no concern for such considerations, then maybe you could eliminate such points entirely.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Now whether you regard being on top of guard as positionally superior depends on the question, superior for what?

The person on top can lift up the person on the bottom and slam him. The person on the bottom can't do that.

 

[Steve]

The person on top can lift up the person on the bottom and slam him. The person on the bottom can't do that.

Yeah and yet the guy on top is the one stalling. If we consider the behavior of the competitors, I think the guy sitting to guard is in a superior position because the other guy doesn’t want anything to do with it. Maybe a guy who successfully sits to guard should get two points.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

The person on top can slam the person on the bottom.

That's just one of the reasons I believe top position is superior combatively. It's also better for striking and for being able to potentially disengage if necessary. However if you are only concerned with competition under certain restrictive rulesets, then the bottom of guard can be equal or even advantageous.

I tell my students that for competition they can develop whatever game works for them under the rules. But for fighting, if the fight goes to the ground you want to be on top. The guard is just our backup plan to try equalizing the situation if we do end up on the bottom.

 

[Ironbear24]

https://www.reddit.com/r/martialarts/comments/qbtiw0

This video has been making the rounds on the internet. It shows a sport BJJ match where one of the competitors enters seated guard and his opponent refuses to engage and even mocks his opponent. Eventually he engages and is EASILY submitted by the BJJ exponent via seated guard.

Now, I've seen plenty of grapplers complain about this tactic, saying that it's "cheating" or "cowardly". However, within the rules of sport BJJ, it's completely legal, and frankly effective. In addition, the rules state that a grappler must engage or they will lose the match, which makes sense. You can't simply run away from your opponent because you don't want to engage their guard.

I don't know, the general attitude of disgust towards how sport BJJ operates is just funny to me. If you want to compete in a sport BJJ competition, you need to learn how to deal with sport BJJ rules. There is an argument that such tactics can water down the self defense portion, but many people who compete aren't doing it for SD purposes. They're doing it for sport. Anyway, I just wanted to bring this up for possible discussion, because I think it beings up the typical sport vs. traditional MA debate, and a style vs style debate because plenty of wrestlers and Judoka absolutely despise these tactics, but due to the lack of other forms of grappling competitions, active compete in BJJ competitions because they're more widespread.

Turning your back is common in point fighting because it's illegal to hit the back, just because it's legal doesn't mean it's not cheesy. This is why people say sport karate and sport bjj aren't actual karate or bjj.

 

[O'Malley]

That's just one of the reasons I believe top position is superior combatively. It's also better for striking and for being able to potentially disengage if necessary. However if you are only concerned with competition under certain restrictive rulesets, then the bottom of guard can be equal or even advantageous.

I tell my students that for competition they can develop whatever game works for them under the rules. But for fighting, if the fight goes to the ground you want to be on top. The guard is just our backup plan to try equalizing the situation if we do end up on the bottom.

Could you please share the other reasons that come to your mind? I don't know how successful butt scooters are in MMA but I thought about multiple attackers and force multipliers. If my attacker had access to a chair, I wouldn't want to be caught butt scooting.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I remember when UFC and no holds barred
I remember when the other leagues joined in with a variation of rules,
most made illegal the small joint locks and dangerous vital area attacks.

I also remember lots of people laughing at other sports where the only valid target was the chest and the basically walked backwards to you to cover up the point area.

The sport has gone down the slope and is at the bottom wallowing in the mud with the other sports it made fun of a couple of decades ago.

This is why I dislike it.