The hatred of boot scooting

[Steve]

That's just one of the reasons I believe top position is superior combatively. It's also better for striking and for being able to potentially disengage if necessary. However if you are only concerned with competition under certain restrictive rulesets, then the bottom of guard can be equal or even advantageous.

I tell my students that for competition they can develop whatever game works for them under the rules. But for fighting, if the fight goes to the ground you want to be on top. The guard is just our backup plan to try equalizing the situation if we do end up on the bottom.

Hold on. We seem to be getting back into the realm of debating unicorns and faeries. Aren't we?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Hold on. We seem to be getting back into the realm of debating unicorns and faeries. Aren't we?

But even if we just talk about sport, we still need to consider the combat reality. The person on top will have advantages such as mobility and weight/gravity.

From the sport point of view, this wrestling posture is OK. But from the combat point of view, it's NO NO.

 

[Steve]

But even if we just talk about sport, we still need to consider the combat reality. The person on top will have advantages such as mobility and weight/gravity.

From the sport point of view, this wrestling posture is OK. But from the combat point of view, it's NO NO.

View attachment 27512

It may seem that way, and yet, as I've pointed out before, this thread exists because a guy who is standing up is unwilling to engage with a guy who is not standing up. If the guy who is standing up in the OP were to simply use his advantages to grapple with the guy on the ground, the guy on the ground would not need to butt scoot.

So, simply put, while what you say seems reasonable in theory, it does not play out in fact. The actual combat reality is that the guy who is sitting appears to have the advantages that matter, in spite of the other guy's mobility and weight/gravity. Given a different ruleset, perhaps the situation would play out differently.

If you're talking about combat outside of the sport, once again, I think I'd want to see some evidence that butt scooting is a bad habit that exists in the real world, outside of intellectual debate.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It may seem that way, and yet, as I've pointed out before, this thread exists because a guy who is standing up is unwilling to engage with a guy who is not standing up. If the guy who is standing up in the OP were to simply use his advantages to grapple with the guy on the ground, the guy on the ground would not need to butt scoot.

So, simply put, while what you say seems reasonable in theory, it does not play out in fact. The actual combat reality is that the guy who is sitting appears to have the advantages that matter, in spite of the other guy's mobility and weight/gravity. Given a different ruleset, perhaps the situation would play out differently.

If you're talking about combat outside of the sport, once again, I think I'd want to see some evidence that butt scooting is a bad habit that exists in the real world, outside of intellectual debate.

From the sport point of view, you are 100% correct. Refuse to fight is bad spirit.

There was a SC tournament in Taiwan. During the final championship fight, both fighters tried not to get into clinch. Both persons got disqualified. The 3rd place became the 1st place, and the 4th place became the 2nd place. That judgement caused a lot of disagreement. But according to the sport rule, that judgement was correct.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

https://www.reddit.com/r/martialarts/comments/qbtiw0

This video has been making the rounds on the internet. It shows a sport BJJ match where one of the competitors enters seated guard and his opponent refuses to engage and even mocks his opponent. Eventually he engages and is EASILY submitted by the BJJ exponent via seated guard.

Now, I've seen plenty of grapplers complain about this tactic, saying that it's "cheating" or "cowardly". However, within the rules of sport BJJ, it's completely legal, and frankly effective. In addition, the rules state that a grappler must engage or they will lose the match, which makes sense. You can't simply run away from your opponent because you don't want to engage their guard.

I don't know, the general attitude of disgust towards how sport BJJ operates is just funny to me. If you want to compete in a sport BJJ competition, you need to learn how to deal with sport BJJ rules. There is an argument that such tactics can water down the self defense portion, but many people who compete aren't doing it for SD purposes. They're doing it for sport. Anyway, I just wanted to bring this up for possible discussion, because I think it beings up the typical sport vs. traditional MA debate, and a style vs style debate because plenty of wrestlers and Judoka absolutely despise these tactics, but due to the lack of other forms of grappling competitions, active compete in BJJ competitions because they're more widespread.

I almost forgot this classic. "Crawl on top of me, and meet your doom!"

 

[Sub Zero]

That was the first thing that popped in my head when I saw the OP, LOL.

 

[Hanzou]

Could you please share the other reasons that come to your mind? I don't know how successful butt scooters are in MMA but I thought about multiple attackers and force multipliers. If my attacker had access to a chair, I wouldn't want to be caught butt scooting.

Yeah, no one is going to drop to their *** and scoot around the floor if someone comes at them with a chair, or if 5 dudes are coming in to attack them.

The issue in BJJ is that we have competitive players who are simply incredible grapplers, and honestly they can dismantle pretty much anyone else in pure grappling competitions. The problem is that BJJ is a grappling art, so you get one of these sport guys visiting your school, and they tear through everyone, even the instructors with relative ease. So if you're into the old school, Gracie self defense stuff, and you see your GJJ professor get torn apart by the Berimbolo or the Worm Guard on the mat, you're going to want to ignore all the old school stuff and run to the nearest sport BJJ school and learn the cool stuff.

Unfortunately, that old school Gracie stuff has lots of useful techniques and training that is quite useful in a SD situation. Tony's point of using the Guard to get back to the top is one such example. Another is striking while in Guard like Royce did in the original UFC. That heel kick to the ribs and back while in Closed Guard, or headbutting when their head is in close is nasty stuff, and I have no idea why people aren't being taught that.

 

[MadMartigan]

On the OP.

From my point of view, the guy did not pull guard. In my mind, pulling guard requires you to end up with the opponent actually in your guard. What he did was sit down with no contact or control of the opponent.
Assuming that the rule set they were fighting under rewards points for takedowns, I would say he should be stood back up as he's refusing to engage in that phase of the match (maybe he's as scarred of the other guys takedowns as the other was of his leglocks).

Obviously he didn't break any rules... but when these things happen, it can have a negative effect on the perception of the art as a whole (Olympic karate anyone?)
When a rule set starts resulting in negative outcomes, a course correction is needed (like Karate Combat league rules to bring excitement and realism back into things).

 

[Hanzou]

On the OP.

From my point of view, the guy did not pull guard. In my mind, pulling guard requires you to end up with the opponent actually in your guard. What he did was sit down with no contact or control of the opponent.
Assuming that the rule set they were fighting under rewards points for takedowns, I would say he should be stood back up as he's refusing to engage in that phase of the match (maybe he's as scarred of the other guys takedowns as the other was of his leglocks).

Obviously he didn't break any rules... but when these things happen, it can have a negative effect on the perception of the art as a whole (Olympic karate anyone?)
When a rule set starts resulting in negative outcomes, a course correction is needed (like Karate Combat league rules to bring excitement and realism back into things).

While I agree that it creates a negative perception of the sport, the problem is that seated guard is effective in multiple arenas, including MMA. The only way seated guard fades away is if it becomes easily countered. I don’t see that happening any time soon.

 

[drop bear]

Hold on. We seem to be getting back into the realm of debating unicorns and faeries. Aren't we?

It was explained to me like this.

Forget chi balls and no touch knockouts if you want to lean a secret mystical ability for fighting.

There is only one option.

Gravity is one of the fundamental forces of the universe. And so the ability to bnd that to your will and use it to your advantage in a fight. Is basically a superpower.

So make them take your weight.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

While I agree that it creates a negative perception of the sport, the problem is that seated guard is effective in multiple arenas, including MMA. The only way seated guard fades away is if it becomes easily countered. I don’t see that happening any time soon.

Your opponent won't drop to death when you are in seated guard.

This is exactly what I don't like about the Taiji principle that if you don't move, I won't move. You have to give before you can take. When you are in seat guard position, you are not giving anything. At least the one who is standing, he can give. The person in seated guard cannot even give.

There is a good reason that in Chinese wrestling sport, people respect those who attacks and fails, and not those who plays defense and wins.

 

[elder999]

Get in my guard!!

 

[elder999]

 

[Hanzou]

Your opponent won't drop to death when you are in seated guard.

This is exactly what I don't like about the Taiji principle that if you don't move, I won't move. You have to give before you can take. When you are in seat guard position, you are not giving anything. At least the one who is standing, he can give. The person in seated guard cannot even give.

There is a good reason that in Chinese wrestling sport, people respect those who attacks and fails, and not those who plays defense and wins.

How many knuckleheads are going rush in full speed into someone sitting down? I'd wager a lot of people.

They don't need to drop to death, there's plenty of sweeps against standing opponents from that position. Typically the sweeps lead directly into leglocks.