Are competitive Sport Martial Artists superior?

[Wing Woo Gar]

We weren’t talking about you though. We weren’t talking about Steven “Seagull” either.

He was mentioned earlier.

 

[Hanzou]

just curious, how could you see my comment as anything but friendly chat? This perplexes and vexes me. Text never conveys the feeling behind it. Most posters here have probably trained for some time, but it’s difficult to discern where people are coming from, experience, skill, and goal wise. My intent is provoke, but not offend. Please accept my apology if you feel I have accomplished the latter rather than the former.

Where do you get the notion that I didn’t view your response as “friendly”?

 

[isshinryuronin]

the POINT is that everything you do in a martial art should improve your fighting ability.

I think this depends on several things. This is true if you're training only to be a professional or top amateur sport fighter, a mob enforcer, a bully, an assassin, and the like. All these skills come under the martial art definition.

Also, MA training can have activities that indirectly aid in one's fighting ability such as awareness, coordination, physical training, tactical thinking, and so on. But these things can also be applied to areas outside of fighting, so are useful to people who do not practice MA for the sole reason of being a fighting machine.

Then, there are things that TMA can develop that have nothing to do with fighting, but aid in the development of one's character such as respect, a view of life, harmony, peace of mind, responsibility, self-control and a code of morality. This is why the old masters were selective on who they taught. One's character was considered, not just their fighting ability.

The beauty of properly taught MA is that its value goes beyond fighting, to paraphrase Bruce Lee. Martial arts is a great vehicle to develop these other benefits and virtues that can be applied in all life's endeavors and last a lifetime, even when too old to fight. By your view, such a senior citizen or handicapped person would be wasting their time training in MA.

So, to sum up, in my view of MA, your quoted statement is 90% true. But by dismissing that other quantitative 10%, the qualitative loss is much more.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

We weren’t talking about you though. We weren’t talking about Steven “Seagull” either.

If you’re talking about verbal skills to diffuse conflict, that is part of someone’s fighting ability as well. Imposing your will onto someone isn’t always physical, oftentimes it is mental. In Bjj it’s considered an aspect of “invisible Jiujitsu”, along the same lines of temperament, awareness, and confidence. Obviously other MAs call it something else entirely, but it is still an aspect of your ability to resolve conflict. It is training to make you a more calm and collective fighter/warrior/whatever.

is that what you are practicing here? Your calm and collected verbal skills to resolve conflict? Temperment?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Where do you get the notion that I didn’t view your response as “friendly”?

The general tone sounds somewhat hostile, so I thought I would ask rather than assume.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I think this depends on several things. This is true if you're training only to be a professional or top amateur sport fighter, a mob enforcer, a bully, an assassin, and the like. All these skills come under the martial art definition.

Also, MA training can have activities that indirectly aid in one's fighting ability such as awareness, coordination, physical training, tactical thinking, and so on. But these things can also be applied to areas outside of fighting, so are useful to people who do not practice MA for the sole reason of being a fighting machine.

Then, there are things that TMA can develop that have nothing to do with fighting, but aid in the development of one's character such as respect, a view of life, harmony, peace of mind, responsibility, self-control and a code of morality. This is why the old masters were selective on who they taught. One's character was considered, not just their fighting ability.

The beauty of properly taught MA is that its value goes beyond fighting, to paraphrase Bruce Lee. Martial arts is a great vehicle to develop these other benefits and virtues that can be applied in all life's endeavors and last a lifetime, even when too old to fight. By your view, such a senior citizen or handicapped person would be wasting their time training in MA.

So, to sum up, in my view of MA, your quoted statement is 90% true. But by dismissing that other quantitative 10%, the qualitative loss is much more.

Well said.

 

[Alan0354]

@ Alan do you know this guy? some radical ideas but might be useful as we get older. he is also of the opinion humans never needed overhead presses, which of course have blown out a few shoulders in pros like Frank zane. I now just do side,rear laterals with Dumbbells. Rear delts trained also with band face pulls. Some things he says i agree with some things not so much but always good to look at the big picture. He was actually trained by Bill pearl(in the beginning) who i spoke to in 2005, 3 times on the phone. Great guy. Ex US Navy man.

I don't know this guy, but that's good information, I should know that, but never think this deep. When I said I put my feet on the chair to do weighted pushups, It's really not like incline press. I use my dumbbell to put space between my body and the ground because I need space for the weighted jackets. The jacket will rest on the ground if I don't have the dumbbells when I lower my body in every pushup. This is a video I did a long time ago with only one jacket of about 45lbs.

Notice the chair mostly compensate for the extra height of the dumbbell I hold onto.

I since add a second jacket and split 40lbs on the big jacket and 20lbs in the smaller thinner jacket and I wear the thinner first and the thick one on top. The video was make almost 2 years ago at the very beginning of the shutdown.

At home, I don't have a way to do decline press. I do body weight dip. I am 175lbs, so it's not exactly light weight. I could wear the 20lbs jacket, but I have to watch out my elbow. I can feel my elbow is at the limit. I used to be able to hang a 45lbs plate 10 years ago to do the dip. I just do 3 sets of 15 body weight dip now a days.

There are definitely limits on working out at home, It's not about buying equipment, it's about not making the family room looking like a gym. The looks for the house is important too. I am thinking about adding a third car garage and use it as a gym. Then I can get a cage with a bench. Now, if I want to exercise the lower pecks, I have to use this kind of twist bars:
https://www.amazon.com/GETUPP-Practical-Shoulder-Exercise-Exerciser/dp/B087F2JBN2/ref=sr_1_6?keywords=chest+exercise+bar&qid=1636176456&qsid=144-4670265-6726520&sr=8-6&sres=B01M1B5QGD,B087F2JBN2,B075NXJR4P,B07MT36F46,B086ZDVVG4,B0065RBOWK,B087G723SR,B08L3JTVHR,B087YKM6KS,B092W21N51,B0895PVDT1,B08FFKRVRY,B08SC64K6N,B093D1C1QX,B00VI8W5FQ,B01L7791PY,B08JTWB39S,B09G9SSF5Q,B08ZN4XNNF,B08QN1FL7N

I have 30lbs, 40lbs and 50lbs bars already. I stopped doing this a few months ago as I got lazy. But after watching your video, That's about the only way to work the lower pecks.

I do pulldown with a lot of elastic bands, those elastic bands are very good, it gets very strong towards the end of the stretch. I just loop them around the chinup bar and pull down sitting on a low stepping stool. That seems to work the pecks also.

As I get older, my left shoulder started to make popping sound when I push the shoulder/deltoid. I used to do 10reps 25lbs dumbbell lateral raise, but I have to lower the weight as it pops on every move and discomfort later on. I have to lower to 17.5lbs each hand and just do 15 to 20 reps sets. This is part of the reason to use two weight jacket, I have to lift the jacket overhead to wear and I have to lift the jacket with one hand and use the other hand to move everything in place. My best military press is 50lbs each hand for 10 reps, I cannot lift and hold 60lbs jacket with one hand over my head. So I have to split into 40:20.

I use elastic bands to do incline press, but again, the left shoulder start popping so I have to keep the resistance down.

Since I added the stick fight, my weekly exercise is getting very long, a little over 7 hours a week, which is almost like 1 1/2hrs a day 5 days a week. It takes too much time to drive to the gym for weights and MA at home. Not only that, I talk a lot in the gym also. I went to a gym that was formerly Gold's Gym which is a heavy duty gym, people are serious people, lots of muscles and push heavy weights. Like you almost can count on people pushing 225lbs bench as starter. I want to go to those gym to keep myself humble, not going to those yuppie gym where benching 135lbs is good already. But you'd be surprised those musclemen also exercise their jaw muscle a lot too. We talk, we laugh!!! I usually spent 1hr working out, then 1/2hr doing jaw exercise!!! I cannot afford this after adding the stick fight regiment. I am stuck at home doing everything for now.

Too bad we all have to get old. Just less than 10 years ago, I could do 5 to 6reps 225lbs bench, before I quit last year, I could only do 185lbs.

You ever try close hands pushups? That is the index fingers and thumbs of both hands touching each other and do pushups. This concentrates the stress on triceps, not the chest. That's part of my triceps exercise. I do 3 sets of 20 every Friday. then I do 30lbs dumbbell kick back also. ( sad I used to do 35lbs easily, but too much stress on the elbows now).

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I've never actually noticed you saying that aikido doesn't teach people any practical fighting skills. I recall you saying you teach people things you think will help them in a fight, and you use the phrase "self defense focus", which honestly, I don't get. At best, you seem to have no trouble reconciling mutually exclusive statements. Maybe someday, you'll be able to explain that to me in a way that makes sense.

I'll be honest in that I've been skimming this thread, and this part stuck out to me for some reason. Gpseymour has said a bunch of times that he doesn't think aikido is a good art for self-defense alone, or for fighting alone. What he's said is that people should start with other arts, and then add aikido once they're capable of self-defense/fighting as it then adds something extra, and that's what he believes its purpose is.

That might be why this stuck out to me actually-it's such a unique position for a teacher of any art to have, that their art only really works after you've learned another. Hopefully, I A) got his position correct, and B) explained it right.

 

[_Simon_]

Just as martial arts intrinsically involves fighting.

See, I think we've strayed onto something that's more an issue of definition. Is it that a martial art is called a martial art because it "involves techniques" that could be used in fighting? Is it because it literally involves fighting? Is it because it will lead to an OUTCOME of being a better fighter?

In the same way, a person who studies in a martial art should, even if they have no interest in fighting, be gaining functional skill as a fighter. And I would say that, if they are not gaining skill as a fighter, they aren't ACTUALLY doing a martial art

And again this ol semantics thing I reckon is the trickiest haha... functional skill as a fighter outside the dojo in a real fight or within their club? These may be very, very different criteria. I actually agree, but I don't really even know what we're talking about anymore haha...

Because in that case, if I was training in a dojo that trained pretty much purely to enhance one's ability in point-sparring tournaments, is this still a martial art? They're improving their functional skill as a fighter within this context, but can we truly say that none of that would ever, ever work in a real fight? Yeah, straying into "self-defence" claim territory...

Also not expecting any answer to any questions posed haha, just saying that I think it's a definition thing that keeps coming up...

Anyway, I guess my point is that ultimately of course martial arts involves improving fighting skill. But I personally don't feel like that has to be the sole PURPOSE (as in, moreso outcome-based intention) of the martial art, but that the "improving fighting" acts as a holistic vehicle, and the fighting isn't the end in itself (but can be), but of course is utilised and progressed. It's a change from linear more literal and pragmatic definition to a different paradigm altogether. But dunno if I'm making any sense. All in all haha, I personally don't do martial arts to become a better fighter, but the process INVOLVES becoming a better fighter (or things that improve fighting ability. Ugh.. again hazy XD).

Where I start to get really irritated isn't with people just doing what they want. Even if you're a little misguided, I don't care about that. It's when people start selling that bunk to others. I think that's sneaky and deceitful at best, and dangerous at worst.

Oh for sure, 100% agree.

 

[_Simon_]

That improved stamina allows me to grapple longer, which in turn allows me more time to perform a lock or a strangle on my opponent. What's more, my improved stamina would help

Sorry. If improving stamina is in your martial art then you're not doing a martial art because it's not fighting. It's basically kata.

(I am 100% being facetious here, but maybe not )

 

[Oily Dragon]

Any devotion to a physical discipline can bleed into other aspects of your life. Professional Basketball players are highly disciplined, incredible athletes, and have to conduct themselves in a certain manner in order to be better members of a team. Heck, Phil Jackson even incorporated Zen meditation and philosophy into his basketball coaching.

However, it still all revolved around putting a ball through a hoop.

I have no doubt that a 60 year old woman starting Aikido isn't looking to run the streets and snap the wrists of thugs and criminals, or walk into a ring and take down a MMA fighter. However, we would be fooling ourselves to believe that Aikido teaching her how to snap someone's wrist isn't a major reason why she's on that mat.



I do, because there's inherent hypocrisy involved. Take Aikido for example; I've seen people claim on one hand that it isn't about fighting ability or violence. However at the same time they like to wax nostalgic about their founders supposed fighting prowess. I also remember several posters telling me that Aikido schools don't advertise themselves as self defense schools. I then proceeded to post multiple links to Aikido schools doing exactly that.

Obviously Aikido isn't the only culprit in this, it's rampant throughout nearly all martial arts, including BJJ. Only cults and religion breed that level of illogic and cognitive dissonance. I would say though that BJJ as a whole doesn't hide what it actually is with unnecessary layers of fluff and silliness.

For now......

 

[drop bear]

Sorry. If improving stamina is in your martial art then you're not doing a martial art because it's not fighting. It's basically kata.

(I am 100% being facetious here, but maybe not )

Yeah. But this becomes one of those weird logic games that don't really work.

So generally we have the argument that if hill sprints isn't fighting but makes fighters more effective then kata because it isn't fighting makes fighters more effective. Same as catching fish because it isn't fighting makes fighters more effective.

And it is generally bunkai where people go wrong anyway.

 

[drop bear]

View attachment 27541

Yeah. Concentrate on all the steps that lead to that finger being there at that specific time and place.

 

[Hanzou]

I think this depends on several things. This is true if you're training only to be a professional or top amateur sport fighter, a mob enforcer, a bully, an assassin, and the like. All these skills come under the martial art definition.

Also, MA training can have activities that indirectly aid in one's fighting ability such as awareness, coordination, physical training, tactical thinking, and so on. But these things can also be applied to areas outside of fighting, so are useful to people who do not practice MA for the sole reason of being a fighting machine.

Then, there are things that TMA can develop that have nothing to do with fighting, but aid in the development of one's character such as respect, a view of life, harmony, peace of mind, responsibility, self-control and a code of morality. This is why the old masters were selective on who they taught. One's character was considered, not just their fighting ability.

Why do you think that old masters were selective in who they taught? Why do you think the teaching of harmony, peace of mind, self control, etc. is drilled into people’s heads? I agree with you that these things are taught in martial arts, but I think you’re missing the purpose behind their teachings in that those teachings are there to make you a more effective fighter.

If you observe advanced warrior cultures throughout the world, creating the perfect fighter often involved being selective, educating them, giving them a code of conduct, and then teaching them how to brutally murder other human beings. It’s all part of the total package, However, just because we put them in fancy clothes, primp their hair, and give them a huge vocabulary, it doesn’t change the fact that we’re talking about a corp of professional killers. That is the history of our martial arts systems, and why things are done the way they are.

By your view, such a senior citizen or handicapped person would be wasting their time training in MA.

Nah;

So, to sum up, in my view of MA, your quoted statement is 90% true. But by dismissing that other quantitative 10%, the qualitative loss is much more.

Well, I’ll take 90% agreement anytime.

 

[Hanzou]

Sorry. If improving stamina is in your martial art then you're not doing a martial art because it's not fighting. It's basically kata.

(I am 100% being facetious here, but maybe not )

You ever do rolling in Bjj? It’s like running with a heavy gi while someone is on your back trying to strangle you. I almost had a heart attack the first time I did it, and I used to compete in kata comps in my karate days.

 

[_Simon_]

You ever do rolling in Bjj? It’s like running with a heavy gi while someone is on your back trying to strangle you. I almost had a heart attack the first time I did it, and I used to compete in kata comps in my karate days.

Yeah I was more joking and making an extremist point about the definitions discussion of what makes a martial art a martial art, with a touch of cheekiness

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Ok. But let's also discuss this in terms of understanding. There is no way you will understand the nuance of technique by drilling alone. You don't understand how to flow properly or get proper timing or even how to cope with loss or failure, how to deal with things like ego. Even how to make a technique that is someone else's, a technique that is yours. You may not even understand that these elements are vital to create a depth of understanding as to what you are doing.

Almost whatever they are trying to accomplish a good competitive guy will understand it better.

You have to experiment with the process to understand it better than the guy who taught it to you.

So we look at ippon seonagi.

And this does not show a great understanding of the move or the concept.

Here we see a completely different animal.

The guy demonstrating the fundamentals of ippon seoi nage in the first clip is Mike Swain, a Judo world champion and 5 time Olympian. I guarantee he has a great understanding of both the move and the concept.

The thing about Judo throws is that you have to learn the basic body mechanics first before you get into the complex, sometimes messy looking variations that come out against resisting opponents at the highest level of competition. In that first clip, Swain is just teaching those fundamental body mechanics. He definitely knows and has executed those crazy looking tournament variations. (I’m also willing to bet that against someone like you or me he could probably pull off the throw in a manner that looks like the textbook fundamental version. )

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I'll be honest in that I've been skimming this thread, and this part stuck out to me for some reason. Gpseymour has said a bunch of times that he doesn't think aikido is a good art for self-defense alone, or for fighting alone. What he's said is that people should start with other arts, and then add aikido once they're capable of self-defense/fighting as it then adds something extra, and that's what he believes its purpose is.

That might be why this stuck out to me actually-it's such a unique position for a teacher of any art to have, that their art only really works after you've learned another. Hopefully, I A) got his position correct, and B) explained it right.

Well, the other thing that you missed (and so have Steve and drop bear despite it being explained multiple times), is that Gerry doesn’t teach or practice Aikido. He does Nikon Goshin Aikido, which despite the name is not directly related to Ueshiba’s art. It’s a modern eclectic art of the sort which normally gets named some form of jujutsu - a blend of Daito-ryu, Judo, and Karate. It’s the same sort of beast as Danzan Ryu Jujutsu or Shingitai Jujutsu except that the founder chose ”aikido” as part of the name instead of “jujutsu”. He’s also explained that his art includes sparring and that the Judo/Karate components of the arts are what tend to come out functionally in sparring more so than the Daito-Ryu elements.

When Gerry comments on “Aikido”, he’s talking about Ueshiba’s art from an outsider’s perspective, just like most people in this thread. When he refers to his own training, he’s talking about NGA (which in my opinion would be less confusing if it was NGJJ).

I have no particular opinion regarding the quality of NGA as an art. The video clips I’ve seen are on a par with the average modern hybrid jujutsu systems. The one time I met Gerry in person we were in a time crunch and he ended up picking my brain without my having the opportunity to pick his in return. However I do find it a bit irritating when discussions of Aikido (the art founded by Morihei Ueshiba) come up and both Steve and drop bear talk to Gerry as if he were a practitioner of that art and essentially call him a liar when he clarifies that his training is different.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Having an unbiased view of new techniques doesn't mean you have to give credence to all techniques.

If you applied just basic Critical thinking to martial arts then you are open to being swayed by evidence.

It is not a case where you just accept any old thing.

Except I wasn’t talking about techniques at all.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I've never actually noticed you saying that aikido doesn't teach people any practical fighting skills. I recall you saying you teach people things you think will help them in a fight, and you use the phrase "self defense focus", which honestly, I don't get. At best, you seem to have no trouble reconciling mutually exclusive statements. Maybe someday, you'll be able to explain that to me in a way that makes sense.

You seem to be confused by the names of the arts. Nihon Goshin Aikido is not the same art as Aikido. Aikido actually manages to be an ambiguous term, because it is also the proper term for the group of arts which Ueshiba's Aikido belongs to. It'd be a lot like if one of the earliest forms of Karate (and the most well-known) was formally named "Karate", while all others have a modifier (e.g. Shotokan Karate).

What I know of Aikido (the art, not the group of arts) suggests it (as commonly taught) lacks a foundation. Folks with experience in other grappling arts have that foundation and are better able to leverage the principles. So what's taught in Aikido can be useful for fighting, if you have a foundation to use it with.

There are folks who disagree with me on this view, in both directions.