Are competitive Sport Martial Artists superior?

[Wing Woo Gar]

You come over like a bit of a guy who is full of himself and probably has very little to bring to the table.
Tell us all your skills...we are all ears

Perhaps you are projecting. You already have all the answers, I realize there are questions I’m not even aware of. Those are two very different states.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You think if you're in a school that has "martial arts school" on the shingle outside, folks don't think they're learning something related to fighting? It's very relevant.

Or maybe more to the point, they don't have to learn to fight, but they really ought to be told they aren't learning to fight. There is a very real difference between being told you're learning to cook and actually learning to cook, or being told you're learning to cook, but really you're just playacting. There is nothing inherently wrong with learning zen through the act of pretending to cook, provided you aren't being fooled into thinking real food is in your future.

Okay, I'm good with that. If folks aren't learning fighting skill, and the school is using the term "martial art", it probably is a good idea to make it clear that they are using martial tradition for other purposes. I'm not sure I've said anything counter to that idea.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Outside the gym? Maybe. If someone trains in BJJ, they will definitely gain useful skills that translate to practical skill INSIDE the gym. The better they are at those skills, the more likely they might be useful outside. The difference is what they're definitely learning INSIDE the art, not whether it will be useful outside the art.

Some folks aren't learning anything inside the art, either. That's the problem. Or more accurately, not learning what they think they're learning.

You seem determined to argue with me on this, but most of your posts in response to me seem like slightly angry agreements. I'm confused.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Except we're talking about a topic I know a great deal about, since I've been doing martial arts for the majority of my life.

In addition, the POINT is that everything you do in a martial art should improve your fighting ability.

How long have you been alive? I too have spent the majority of my life training. The years are inconsequential. I have seen lots of old bulls that produce the same amount of manure as the young ones. Take Steven seagull for example.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So, if you agree that aikido isn't for learning any practical fighting skills, we're all in agreement.

Is this the first time you've actually noticed me saying that? Because I've made essentially this same statement probably a dozen times in threads you were in.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Exercise.

Even if it's not being used for fitness?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Taking part of my quote out of context to make your point?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

without starting a new thread i will just say too... how much respect should you show a Master or so called Grand Master?
I have never been into this *** kissing you see in some Dojos.
Master has always right and knows everything. A lot of Japanese now train in MMA type training. I think all this mystic Master BS is dying out. It´s about what you can really do.
Also physical fitness is just as important as skill. magical dreaming from the dark ages won´t cut it now. Look at Bruce Lee he was all about staminia and a high degree of fitness.

Yeah, that's one of the things that became problematic in JMA, in my experience. Not always (my Judo instructor never gave me that vibe, but then I knew him as a family friend long before), but too often. I've even had to correct students (mostly those with prior MA experience) for apologizing for asking what they think is an awkward question. I like questions, even the ones I can't answer. It means they are thinking for themselves, and not just taking what I give them at face value.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It still might be relevant. Competition martial artists might still be superior in developing this non fighting skill.


So this

"I believe a lot of what's in Aikido was really not intended for direct use. It teaches control and movement that can be applied to almost any technique (which works best, IMO, with a base of some functional techniques under it). Problem is I don't think that's how a lot of practitioners - even instructors - see it."

Might be developed better through competition.

Might, yeah. But I covered that already in a previous response to you.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

The issue is this line of reasoning is a marketing scam. I know nothing really of running so how could I possibly tell if Usain Bolt knows more about running than say, Stephen Segal?

I mean I could look at both runners achiements or see how fast they run. But that would take at least five minutes and the ability to write words in to a search engine.

I am far better off giving the same credibility to both those guys just in case there is a secret that is not discernible by basically all methods of research in to the topic.

And this is on the presumption that runners like Stephen Segal are actually using better systems than ursain bolt to make sure their methods are only used by a select few who have proven themselves worthy enough.

And the presumption that ursain bolt literally won't give this information away.

I mean come on. How far do people expect me to suspend disbelief?

I see your point on the marketing scam, I also agree that the majority of what we find out there is bs scams. Sad state of affairs, but all too true. The thing is, there really are a few legitimate folks that have rare skills. Don’t discount that fact. Just like any treasure, you might not find it, but it does exist. ( I am not in any way saying that I am a treasure).

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Except we're talking about a topic I know a great deal about, since I've been doing martial arts for the majority of my life.

In addition, the POINT is that everything you do in a martial art should improve your fighting ability.

Did you see where I said I liked it? Do you guys read the whole thread?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Except we're talking about a topic I know a great deal about, since I've been doing martial arts for the majority of my life.

In addition, the POINT is that everything you do in a martial art should improve your fighting ability.

A great deal is not everything. Certainly there is at least one thing you may have missed?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Except we're talking about a topic I know a great deal about, since I've been doing martial arts for the majority of my life.

In addition, the POINT is that everything you do in a martial art should improve your fighting ability.

Okay, if we're going to go on experience, I've been doing martial arts nearly my entire life. And I argue that it's not necessary that everything in MA training improve fighting ability. Leaving aside the concept of what I'd allow to be called MA that aren't focus on fighting, I have zero problem with MA curriculum including things that don't really do anything noticeable for fighting skill. Some folks want different things from a program. For instance, I often help students develop their communication and questioning skills, neither of which are tied to the ability to impose your will on someone in a physical manner.

In fact, I doubt I'd have stuck around long-term at a place that was wholly focused on fighting skill. I've dabbled in programs that did that, but they never held my focus.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

the POINT is that everything you do in a martial art should improve your fighting ability.

Agree! Almost in every MA forums, you will see comment such as, "MA is more than just for fighting. If you truly care about fight, go get yourself a gun."

Some forum even go much deeper such as, "Use mind, don't use muscle."

It's very easy to get lost in those kind of discussion.

Many years ago, someone said, "MA training has 3 stages, physical stage, mental stage, and spiritual stage". I believe I'm still in the physical stage and I have no intention to move into next stage.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Okay, if we're going to go on experience, I've been doing martial arts nearly my entire life. And I argue that it's not necessary that everything in MA training improve fighting ability. Leaving aside the concept of what I'd allow to be called MA that aren't focus on fighting, I have zero problem with MA curriculum including things that don't really do anything noticeable for fighting skill. Some folks want different things from a program. For instance, I often help students develop their communication and questioning skills, neither of which are tied to the ability to impose your will on someone in a physical manner.

In fact, I doubt I'd have stuck around long-term at a place that was wholly focused on fighting skill. I've dabbled in programs that did that, but they never held my focus.

Thank you for the pleasant discourse. I must be inarticulate, my commentary tends to inflame certain temperments, though that is not my intent.

 

[Steve]

You seem determined to argue with me on this, but most of your posts in response to me seem like slightly angry agreements. I'm confused.

It's a discussion forum. I'm not angry in the least, but I don't always have the time to fluff up my responses to you in a vain effort to avoid hurting your feelings. But hey, I'll take slightly angry now. It's a little better than when you get huffy and start calling me patronizing.

Is this the first time you've actually noticed me saying that? Because I've made essentially this same statement probably a dozen times in threads you were in.

I've never actually noticed you saying that aikido doesn't teach people any practical fighting skills. I recall you saying you teach people things you think will help them in a fight, and you use the phrase "self defense focus", which honestly, I don't get. At best, you seem to have no trouble reconciling mutually exclusive statements. Maybe someday, you'll be able to explain that to me in a way that makes sense.

Even if it's not being used for fitness?

Well, I mean exercise is just exercise. Fitness is an unavoidable byproduct of exercising, if you do it enough. So... I guess, yes.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Except we're talking about a topic I know a great deal about, since I've been doing martial arts for the majority of my life.

In addition, the POINT is that everything you do in a martial art should improve your fighting ability.

just curious, how could you see my comment as anything but friendly chat? This perplexes and vexes me. Text never conveys the feeling behind it. Most posters here have probably trained for some time, but it’s difficult to discern where people are coming from, experience, skill, and goal wise. My intent is provoke, but not offend. Please accept my apology if you feel I have accomplished the latter rather than the former.

 

[Hanzou]

How long have you been alive? I too have spent the majority of my life training. The years are inconsequential. I have seen lots of old bulls that produce the same amount of manure as the young ones. Take Steven seagull for example.

We weren’t talking about you though. We weren’t talking about Steven “Seagull” either.

 

[Hanzou]

Okay, if we're going to go on experience, I've been doing martial arts nearly my entire life. And I argue that it's not necessary that everything in MA training improve fighting ability. Leaving aside the concept of what I'd allow to be called MA that aren't focus on fighting, I have zero problem with MA curriculum including things that don't really do anything noticeable for fighting skill. Some folks want different things from a program. For instance, I often help students develop their communication and questioning skills, neither of which are tied to the ability to impose your will on someone in a physical manner.

In fact, I doubt I'd have stuck around long-term at a place that was wholly focused on fighting skill. I've dabbled in programs that did that, but they never held my focus.

If you’re talking about verbal skills to diffuse conflict, that is part of someone’s fighting ability as well. Imposing your will onto someone isn’t always physical, oftentimes it is mental. In Bjj it’s considered an aspect of “invisible Jiujitsu”, along the same lines of temperament, awareness, and confidence. Obviously other MAs call it something else entirely, but it is still an aspect of your ability to resolve conflict. It is training to make you a more calm and collective fighter/warrior/whatever.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

really ? why ?

Because the context of your comment is bigoted. The fact that you do not recognize that informs our earlier discourse.