American Martial Arts: Issue of rank

[kroh]

Might want to check out the book: "How to win friends and influence people"
It's a good'n......

:asian:

Regards,
Walt

 

[Dark]

I think Brad is on to something, in a way, and both sides have their merits to their arguements. I have belief that rank is a delusion, as any status sybol is in any society and that comes from a purely sociology based point of view.

I would love to see a world of rankless/beltless MAs, imagine all the gradious claims to this and that that would have little or no proof? More so, people would have to go back to the put up or shut style of prooving themselves. The sad reality a world without rank would be just as abusive but in very different ways.

The only difference between the village idiot and the enlightened wanderer is the appearance of understanding...

 

[Rich Parsons]

As we take a look at American martial arts, with the focus being on rank, it is hard to see how we can call our systems American, Practically when most all systems take on the model or structure of karate when forming their levels of rank. Most so called traditional martial arts had their arts originally come from another country, Later changing style names and using terminology from its own land not that of it’s origin, yet most Americans persist in calling themselves a new system but continue to use old terms from other country’s when referring to their own art or as we are focusing on here rank.
Terms like Kup, Kyu and others are used when describing under belt ranks, as Dan is prominent when referring to black belts. However, there are those arts that are traditional at its core that have modernized to an American system but still use these term, rank structure and levels from it’s passed. Some new systems have no terms, rank or levels other than being described as teacher and student, but most new arts still use the old terms.
Black belt degrees have most people going insane trying to figure out there meaning. With some arts having 5 degrees while others 8 and several having 10 degrees.
Many arts today have a 10 Dan system so their art or their instructors have some sense of superiority over others. But truth be know a 10th Dan is only equal to some systems 5th Dan if that is the highest rank of that art.
Taking a look back, a 10th Dan is usually a founder of an art and the rank is usually self-proclaimed or awarded. There are those who have founded associations, that have review board that will many times awards these levels of high rank, most of the time the person receiving the rank is the person that selected or appointed the board members themselves.
There is no set standard as to who may become a tenth Dan. Some arts founders had many years of study before creating their systems while others did so with only months of formal training.
Martial art systems that use the belt and degree or Dan ranks need to remember from where it came. It was Judo founder Jigoro Kano that was the creator of the belt scheme. Not only was he a founder of an art as well as the creator of the belt structure, but he himself never reached his highest level for rank.
His system was 1st to 4th Dan with 5th or above being honorary Dan titles only. His wish was also that when one achieved the highest level of rank they would revert back to wearing a white belt.
As to karate, When Shotokan’s founder Gichin Funakoshi decided to use Kano’s model of black belt ranks (color belts didn’t come till later for both judo and then karate) I do not think he was speaking or acting on behalf of or for all karate systems when in 1924 he awarded the first karate black belts to some of his students. I would also like to say he or they (Kano and Funakoshi) where probably seen as very pompous by most of the martial art world at that time for taking such a strange approach. Either way, like myself I think these two men probable never felt the need to justify their actions to any others in the martial arts.
As the people of the arts world later fall in line with these Dan ranks 1st thru 4th with all higher Dans being honorary or administrative ranks, and with the later added under belt ranks, it was understood that these ranks were for dividing people up based on a general skill level for the sole purpose of administration use and for competition only.
Somewhere along the way we got so tied up (forgive the pun) in belts and rank we have forgotten the true meaning of the belt structure. We must remember that rank is only good with in your school or system. Has this all become a one ups man ship? Or is it something that is being used for marketing while trying to recruit new students? Or maybe it is so association can charge astronomical fees for the higher Dan ranks.
I think today most of us can see the failures of the old Asian rank structure. So were Kano & Funakoshi people of great vision when it came to the belt system? Or were they two of the most destructive people to the arts in history? That in it’s self is a topic of much debate when it comes to their rolls in the incorporation of belts, we will not weigh in on that here but instead let you come to your own conclusion.
The old 12 Dan in Judo (if memory serves) or the 10 Dan systems has allowed egos to run rank rampant. Again the old system was to have these higher ranks for administrators / founders. The problem is to many people think this must mean a person is so much better than a third, forth or fifth Dan being a tenth Dan. These higher ranks for years have been held like a carrot in front of the lower Dan’s noses as a way of keeping them loyal or in line by associations.
Today If using a belt degree structure, the 5 Dan system does not allow for as much abuse as the ten, and is somewhat a break from the old Japanese / Okinawan systems. Another option would be the original menkyo (teachers certificate). Yes I know that I just used an old term here but it is to make some out there aware that this was a term and method used to distinguished ones place in a school or art long before anyone ever thought about those nice looking belts that we wrap around our waists before tying it into that cute little square knot.
So why do we still have rank and the old belt system? You would have thought that when the Korean people wished to kick all the Japanese things out of their arts they would have gotten rid of this rank structure. So it appears to this writer that familiarity, fear and a need of self-importance would be the reasons that many have kept the old way of doing things.

Well some will give up rank when forming a new art and some may cut down on the number of belts and others will teach the true value of rank to their students. Some people still seem to need approval or respect for their new system and feel they must please others by using the old failed 10 Dan system. But as new arts formed in this land I guess they can do as they wish.
Any American art can have any rank or no rank structure if it wishes, and in no way does it (founded/students) have to pay homage to any country if they do not wish.

I guess the whole thing is, in American arts when forming, blending or creating them, and then looking to its classification, maybe they should think long and hard before just falling back on the old ways.


There are no martial law or rules that cannot or if need be can’t be broken. As Americans we are not one to be dictated to. We have paid our martial dues and only have peers but not superiors. We do not have some little need to seek approval of our systems. We need not have some other country sanctioning it. We should now no longer have the need to appease everyone or go by these Asian rules or taboos that hold nothing that is truly significant of value to the arts. Again speaking about American arts/systems we do not need or do we ask permission to do as we wish with our American arts.
It is common curtsy to recognize a persons rank level of another art, although in truth if a person does not have rank in the other person’s art, then to each other they have NO RANK.
Now with all that great stuff said. After 80+ years of belt systems (for karate) it will be hard to extract them all at once. American martial arts are still evolving, and we should take care when deciding the direction we are going to take. Remember we should be about knowledge and abilities not what hangs off our waist.
Not all will agree with what has been written even when being faced with the facts, many will see it as an attack on their rank, art or status....But more accurately it will be a blow to their ego.

B. Reynolds

What does one do who studies a traditional art that has no rank. No titles. And only Play or fighting or skill level determines order, and that might change on different techniques to a much longer period over time?

What does one do when others use a title and say no, but they still do it any ways?

What is your opinion on these points?

Thanks

 

[mjd]

GM Jae C. Shinn of the WTDSA came to the US in 1978 under GM Hwang Kee, things went south and he left, started the WTDSA in 1982, here's the impressive part, he was 8th dan Master when he came to the US in 78 and he still is.

He has been asked to move up many times by several prominent 10th dan Master in other orgs, but refuses because he feels it would be not be honorable while Hwang was still alive, Hwang Kee passed on several years back and Master Shinn still won't take a higher rank.

I have a lot of respect for Master Shinn and his view of rank.

 

[delicate Flower]

Rank is just that a rank, i forgot along time ago about my rank, I carry every belt that I have earned, white, yellow, green, brown and black, not because I want to show off but because of where i came from, not of what i know but what i have learned and shared over the years, the ranking system in america is just like any other business in america i am better then you, gotta tell ya that is not it, many times my Sensei and I would be at the fire, I would tell him i dont care about the belt or the rank just the knowledge and the fact that you think I am worthy enough to share your knowledge with me. When belts and ranks get thrown into it we forget where we came from, not me i started with nothing and I will finish with nothing that my friends is the essentials of Martial Arts. "Humbleness"

 

[EmperorOfKentukki]

This isn't the orient. This is America. We take things in that originate in other countries and make it our own. We keep what works well for our standards and our ideals, and change what we want too.

Sidartha Gitama, the Buddha, was born, lived and died in India. Buddhism is Indian by origin, but the Chinese have embraced it and made it their own.

The pugilistic arts of Asian were born in those countries, but Americans have learned them and made them their own.

I am a Teacher. I have earned a meager rank. I recently promoted myself to 'White Belt'.

Who has authority to tell me not to do this? Am I not the Emperor?!

 

[green meanie]

Who has authority to tell me not to do this? Am I not the Emperor?!

It's good to be king.

 

[Last Fearner]

Many good points have been made. I find it difficult to keep up, and read so much, but I feel it is worth understanding other people's points of views. I try to make my comments "intelligent" contributions as others do (sometimes with a little humor - very little...)

I believe that most agree that rank, or belts, or stripes are not the "item of value," but merely a representation of what is of value ~ knowledge, ability, experience, understanding, enlightenment, etc.

So, what's wrong with using a material object to represent those items of real value, or communicate to others who is at what level of their particular system/organizational structure? In my opinion, there is nothing intrinsically wrong with it. Are there abuses? Yes. Should we abandon the use of ranks, and belts, or even reduce their numbers because of the abuses? I don't believe so. In fact, I believe this would exasperate, or increase the problem.

The military has many ranks, and rightfully so. When I was in the Army, it seemed to be an appropriate method of testing criteria, leadership training, and implementation of duties and missions. I did not know everyone in the Army, and certainly did not know every soldier and officer in the other branches, but when I saw the insignia of rank, I knew whether or not to salute them, follow their leadership, or drop them for push-ups!

Like anything of value, there will be those charlatans who will imitate, and impersonate the "real deal." Start up a successful dog-walking business, and next week you will have a dozen or so people advertising the same thing, even though they have no qualifications with animals. Martial Art business can be a successful enterprise, and those without qualifications will always attempt to take short cuts, and claim to be experts. The public is already being duped by many, and at risk to be scammed by yet another generation of, "the latest craze of Martial Art - My Way!"

If no belts (or better yet, certification) of rank and skill, for both students and instructors, ever existed, I believe we would need to invent it to help indicate to the public who is legit. When the charlatans claim to have equal rank in "their own system," the public needs to be educated as to what that means (or doesn't mean).

Those who have worked their way up through the ranks of the military, fighting wars, losing the buddies in combat, becoming amputees, and being rightfully decorated for heroism, and promoted in rank, are often dishonored by impostors who claim to have fought in battles they never witnessed, in counties they never visited, and to have been awarded purple hearts and congressional medals of honor for deeds that never occurred. There are watch-dog groups that ferret out these liars, fakes and phonies. Should we abandon the military ranks, and medals of honor because of the abuse? I don't think so! Expose the frauds, and honor the genuine heros.

Those who have put in their time in the Martial Art (whatever legitimately established system) with blood, sweat, and tears, to properly earn the respect of their peers, deserve every patch and stripe on their uniform sleeve, and belt. Let these genuine accolades stand as a rule of measure for which others can strive, respect, and hold as significant only because of what they represent. If we take away the belts and ranks, the value of the accomplishments still exists, but it just makes it easier for someone who has done nothing to claim "my school of the latest Martial Art invention is just as good as theirs."

If someone tries to falsely claim to be a high rank to "match appearances" with a legitimate Master, then let them go under the scrutiny of the magnifying glass, and prove they are not just making it up. Those who do not want to be called as liars, avoid the rank issue by saying, "rank, and belts do not matter, so we do not use them" (I, too, know the philosophy of not holding the rank itself as the true value of training, but I know the value rank can serve as a tool).

Now, those who have never used belts, or choose not to for legitimate reasons are not the fakes, however, in my opinion, they give credibility to the fakes who take the same argument against belts, just so they don't have to prove any rank, background authenticity, or any degree of verifiable knowledge on the subject before they open their doors to "Billy-Bob's Academy of Realistic Fighting Martial Arts" and scam the public. (My apologies if there really is a school under this name, no connection was intended).

Legitimate ranks, certificates, and lineage to the previous generations of Masters has its purpose and value. Those who abuse it, imitate it, or falsify it, or allow it to feed their ego, are the problem - - not the rank system itself. In my personal opinion, those relatively inexperienced newbies who would read a bunch of criticism about the so-called "faults" with rank, and begin to reduce, or completely abandon their previously established rank system had little understanding of the meaning and value of rank, and little convictions to their beliefs in the first place. If there is such a vast movement toward this alleged reduction of belts, then I would venture that these "instructors" where flying by the seat of their pants to begin with, and would go with whatever strong wind prevails - without insights as to the bigger picture (past, present, and future).

There is my, so-called, "intelligent" input on the subject.:ultracool
Chief Master Darwin J. Eisenhart
6th Degree Black Belt - Taekwondo, U.S. Chung Do Kwan Association
(and I'm not holding on to that belt tight - I wear it lightly, with pride, but if you think you can take it from me, give it you best shot!) lol

 

[Last Fearner]

One more quick point:

Some are heralding this internet as a tool by which the public can learn to identify who is legitimate, and who is fake in the Martial Art industry.

I see it also as a source of information for the imposters to learn the language, technical answers, and methodology of genuine Martial Artists, then pass it off as their own, genuinely learned knowlege, thereby able to fool the public better.

This is why I am always cautious as to how much information I post on these threads.

Just a thought! :asian:
___________________
Last Fearner

 

[pstarr]

Last Fearner- you hit it right on the head! :asian:

 

[Kreth]

I would love to see a world of rankless/beltless MAs, imagine all the gradious claims to this and that that would have little or no proof?

You mean like a "5th dan Shihan of ninjitsu" [sic]?

 

[Bigshadow]

One more quick point:

Some are heralding this internet as a tool by which the public can learn to identify who is legitimate, and who is fake in the Martial Art industry.

I see it also as a source of information for the imposters to learn the language, technical answers, and methodology of genuine Martial Artists, then pass it off as their own, genuinely learned knowlege, thereby able to fool the public better.

This is why I am always cautious as to how much information I post on these threads.

Just a thought! :asian:
___________________
Last Fearner

Absolutely! Many details of training are very inappropriate for the internet for many reasons, those included.

 

[Kasho]

I have returned refreshed from vacation, and now have come to check on you good people.

Some of the people here have stuck to the subject and made some good points on both sides, while others are still trying to take shoots at me personally, Sad! To me this just shows that you are poor martial arties because of the lack of self-control, aggressive nature that shows no discipline when it comes to self-restraint. It also is disrespectful to your instructor because it makes them look as a poor instructor when you show no respect to others (no matter what the rank).

We all claim to be able to learn from anyone, but the people here fist wish to know your “RANK” as some sign (standardized form) of knowledge before speaking to you.

Rank is being reduced in this country (like it or not) at a fast pace. Many of you good people may just be hearing of this but it’s true. Some people will and have dropped rank all together, while other are reducing all in an effort to reduce abuse.

Now for those good ma people that have earned those high Dan rank, they if they chose to keep them will be scrutinized harshly for that decision.

People this is not about me! And your little attacks on me mean very little, I doubt most of the way people bill themselves and I too also question the truth of most people’s training. However in truth if I wish too (and at this time done) NO ONE here can be as nasty or cool hearted as me if need be. If you are one of those traditional bad butts that think you need to physically come and shut someone down that you don’t agree with, I would more than welcome you! (Good luck).

Okay hopefully you get the point that I have no fear of anyone here on this board or in person. As to traditional arts I do have a respect for them, but Mr. Fearner TKD is at the bottom of the list (I once trained in Chung Do Kwan).

Again this tread was about AMERICAN MARTIAL ARTS! If it applies to you fine, if not what are you worried about????

Goodnight people.

Brad

 

[Brother John]

I have returned refreshed from vacation, and now have come to check on you good people.

Good deal. Glad you had a good time. I sure could use a vacation too.
Sooner or later, I'll get one.

Some of the people here have stuck to the subject and made some good points on both sides, while others are still trying to take shoots at me personally, Sad! To me this just shows that you are poor martial arties because of the lack of self-control, aggressive nature that shows no discipline when it comes to self-restraint. It also is disrespectful to your instructor because it makes them look as a poor instructor when you show no respect to others (no matter what the rank).

Sir, you're being a tad too reactionary. Honestly man, maybe some have gotten heated, but they didn't get there alone.....there's really not been THAT many shots at you; but there's been some...true.
But you've been very easily provoked.
Might think about that...

We all claim to be able to learn from anyone, but the people here fist wish to know your “RANK” as some sign (standardized form) of knowledge before speaking to you.

whoa there Brad. It's not been quite that heated for you here. Mole hills to MOUNTAINS man! Why are you talking more about others getting off track and being rude than staying on your own track?? You've used more time/space/words to defend than anyones used to attack...by far. I think you'll find that many here on Martial Talk are ready and eager to learn, but only from those who:
A: Have something worthy of study.
B: Want to teach in the attitude of 'sharing with ones peers'.
By asking you about your background (only ONE element of which is your rank, and if rank ISn't worthy of being questioned....then how could it ever be abused???) we've tried to discern for ourselves if this NEW guy (you) who's not Ever posted in ANY other thread than this one that he started has something worth our attention....or is he just spouting a pre-fab agenda.
I've gotta say, maybe you have some good points....but your actions support the latter, not the former of those two options.
..and you've HARDLY come here with the attitude of sharing ideas with your peers.
I'd bet that in your school(s) and perhaps your town you are regarded as "THE" authority in regards to martial arts. ..and good on ya...
But here at Martial Talk, you're just another guy who's been in the martial arts for a good while..............and you're one amongst many.
We tend to target "Soap-Boxes" pretty accurately, and most complain when their box gets kicked...

Rank is being reduced in this country (like it or not) at a fast pace. Many of you good people may just be hearing of this but it’s true. Some people will and have dropped rank all together, while other are reducing all in an effort to reduce abuse.

Reduced?
Are you talking about people devaluing rank because of their greedy trend of abuse?
OR
Are you talking about legit martial artists who are removing stripes from their belt or removing the belt all-together?? Not real clear on which you are implying here.
IF the latter, I'm not seeing it...
and I'm nowhere NEAR as "Out of the Loop" as you'd like to paint me Brad.
The last couple of lines make it sound like THIS has been your choice, to reduce or devalue rank.....and you are painting it like it's "Sweeping the Nation"...in an effort to validate your decision.
It's YOUR rank
It's YOUR decision....
and I've seen NO such trend. I'm not saying I've never heard of it happening, but it's not even close to being that Common of an occurance.
(((Don't take MY word for it Brad, TEST it out....Martial Talk is one of ...if not THE....BIGGEST martial arts discussion forums in the World...period...
so put of a POLL in the "General" section.....ask who's all reduced their rank or dropped belts...or however you want to put it...
if there's a trend at all out there, it WILL show! No kiddin.
I double Dog dare ya... )))

Now for those good ma people that have earned those high Dan rank, they if they chose to keep them will be scrutinized harshly for that decision.

Wow....
so......join NOW, drink the cool-aid....or FACE THE CONSEQUENCES huh?
:xtrmshock :soapbox: :drinkbeer



Listen Brad, if a person puts on a Shodan they SHOULD be scrutinized harshly (Harshly might be too.......harsh...of a word, how about closely or stringently)...because they've got a lot to live up too.
IF you feel that your rank doesn't fit you, you have the Obligation (as I see it) to lay it down. THat's your decision.
What OTHERS do with their rank (inflate it beyond reason so that it has more degrees than a thermometer OR lay it down and never wrap a belt about their waist again) It Doesn't Affect Me or My rank ONE OUNCE.
...and why should it.
Those who abuse rank, abuse THEIR OWN rank, not that of others.
So....if Gichin Funakoshi was a 10th Dan (just say so, for an example) and now a century later (ok....more..........I know) HUNDREDS of guys don 10th Dan's.....does it Devalue the rank that Funakoshi wore?
OR
Does it just make those hundreds of inflated belt wearers seem egotistical and silly??

Belts or "Rank" are a measuring device. Don't measure yourself by someone elses yard stick.
Let it be known that YOUR yard stick is chocked FULL of IMMOVEABLE standards of excellence......and hard to live up too.
IF my rank (and I've Never said if it's high or what) and the fact that I'm not going to change what my instructor entrusted to me and honored me with... means that I'm going to be "Harshly Scrutinized"....
Bring it on!
:ultracool

People this is not about me! And your little attacks on me mean very little, I doubt most of the way people bill themselves and I too also question the truth of most people’s training. However in truth if I wish too (and at this time done) NO ONE here can be as nasty or cool hearted as meif need be. If you are one of those traditional bad butts that think you need to physically come and shut someone down that you don’t agree with, I would more than welcome you! (Good luck).

...:uhyeah:
Ok...what was that first line there??

People this is not about me!

Riiiiiiight....
ok
For NOT being about you, you sure do take up most of your post with talk about You.

However in truth if I wish too (and at this time done) NO ONE here can be as nasty or cool hearted as meif need be. If you are one of those traditional bad butts that think you need to physically come and shut someone down that you don’t agree with, I would more than welcome you! (Good luck)

Speaking of making ones instructor proud Brad...wow.....
You just REEK of maturity and self restraint there!
.....I have NO idea why you're not having more success from up there on your soap box Brad.
hmmmm
((might want to check the Matial Talk rules there Brad, I think that posting an open invitation to a fight is, not only in bad taste, but against some sort of rule or something. Wouldn't want your soap box taken away or anything; you're getting to be just too fun))

Okay hopefully you get the point that I have no fear of anyone here on this board or in person.

Yes...yes....
You're big, bad...we Don't scare you (not sure who's tried....) and we've been invited...
:bow:
....I'll try to keep in mind, Brad, that this is NOT about you...
It's about the new Belt Dropping craze that's sweeping the nation......

As to traditional arts I do have a respect for them, but Mr. Fearner TKD is at the bottom of the list (I once trained in Chung Do Kwan).

Is that a back handed compliment // AKA: sly little put-down about TKD and or it's practitioners....like Fast Learner? (Haven't gotten used to the name change man)
So you've now told us that YOU respect traditional arts, but TKD gets the least of YOUR respect...
..but of course, this isn't about YOU...
right

Again this tread was about AMERICAN MARTIAL ARTS! If it applies to you fine, if not what are you worried about????

huh?
This is Martial Talk Brad, if a Traditional Tai Chi practitioner wants to comment and express herself on this thread......so what...
either deal with the points made
or don't.

You really should be more self observant Brad.
You're behavior here is Aweful. I honestly Don't want you to get banned by the powers that be for the horribly rude way you've acted on this ONE and only thread you've visited...

Goodnight people.

condescend much?






good night Brad
Your Brother
John












​

 

[Last Fearner]

As to traditional arts I do have a respect for them, but Mr. Fearner TKD is at the bottom of the list (I once trained in Chung Do Kwan).

Interesting reply. Not that it really matters to me, but I am curious as to what reason you would place TKD at the "bottom" of your list. I am also not sure what this comment about you having "once trained in Chung Do Kwan" means, since you did not follow through with any statements about your experience (not that I'm prying, but it seems relevant to your comment). The obvious questions related to your bringing up this topic of your involvement in Chung Do Kwan would be, "For how long," "With what organization," "Under what instructor," "At what age were you," and "What was your experience (good, bad, and why)?


Whatever your reasons are for placing Taekwondo at the bottom of your list, I have hundreds of very sound reasons for placing it at the top of mine - - but then, I have devoted my entire adult lifetime to studying, teaching, and understanding Taekwondo, and the various Korean Martial Art origins.

Again this tread was about AMERICAN MARTIAL ARTS! If it applies to you fine, if not what are you worried about????

If this comment, and question is addressed specifically to me, then my answer is that I am not "worried" about anything. I am simply contributing to a "discussion thread" on my favorite forum "Martial Talk." As to your indication that this thread is about "AMERICAN MARTIAL ARTS," I see it more as being about the subject of rank. In any event, I am an American (born and raised). I study the "Martial Art" in America, and I believe that any discussion about the "Martial Art" is related to each person's experience, including the ancient roots (already brought up in your original post), and any Martial Art organization operating within this country.

I'm not too particularly keen on the notion of separating so-called "American Martial Art" from its Asian counter-part since this country has only been here for a couple of centuries, and what I consider "Martial Art in America" is a product of what Americans have learned about the concept from Asian Cultures. People can try and change it into something strictly American (attempting to break all ties with the Asian people and their culture), but this sounds more like a personal vendetta because of bad experiences. I understand this! I have been around in the Martial Art for a long time myself. I have seen the abuses, and the problems between American and Asian culture, and how Americans perceive Martial Art knowledge, and how they prefer to study it.

I respectfully disagree with the idea that we should abandon connections, terminology, or rank systems to Asian origins. I equate this with putting a tourniquet around the neck when there is a head injury. It does no good to stop the bleeding, if you end the life in the process. I believe that those who wish to re-design the Martial Art without fully understanding it, are unwittingly squeezing the life out of it.

It is my opinion that individuals with sour experiences, who go off trying to re-invent the wheel, and make the Martial Art into something it is not just to suit their own interests, are acting upon emotion, and their own insecurities. I believe we should strive to expand our understanding of what the Martial Art truly is (instead of changing it to fit our picture frame), and fix whatever problems arise.

Note: I am not attacking any person in my reply, and I am not asserting my rank, or title over anyone else's. These are my opinions on the topic which has been presented here on this "General Martial Art" forum at MT.

Thank You,
Last Fearner

 

[terryl965]

Kasho I persanaly find your lack of knowledge of TKD and Last Fearner who has done nothing but show respect to you a bit distrubing to say the least.

Originally Posted by Kasho
As to traditional arts I do have a respect for them, but Mr. Fearner TKD is at the bottom of the list (I once trained in Chung Do Kwan).

Posted by Kasho
People this is not about me! And your little attacks on me mean very little, I doubt most of the way people bill themselves and I too also question the truth of most people’s training. However in truth if I wish too (and at this time done) NO ONE here can be as nasty or cool hearted as meif need be. If you are one of those traditional bad butts that think you need to physically come and shut someone down that you don’t agree with, I would more than welcome you! (Good luck).

1st thing wrong with the above statement if you are betting on luck then you have lost al ready. Secondly you calling and picking on a member here on MT just shows how immature you really are.

Please show all of us TKD'ers how great you are and give up your rank and go back and devote your life to a traditional MA, On your website you are the high and mighty but not here. here my good man you are just a person who look as though they where never ever able to finish the race with one Art, so instead of training harder you decided to start your own?

So how about it can you go back to a empty cup and train to be more of a whole person with compassion tor his fellow MA'ers that gave devoted themself to one Art.

I know I know I'm one of those bottom people that you have no respect for, for my style is TKD, but wait how about Okinawa Karate because I also hold a 5th in that Art as well?

Sincerly your brother in the Art whether you like it or not
Master Stoker

 

[chinto01]

Kasho let me be one of the first to say that I think you may have gone a little to far with your most recent post. The attack on TKD I believe was uncalled for. Who cares what art people study as long as they are out there doing something they are enjoying and bettering themselves with. Every art has some merit and I believe an apology on your behalf may be in order to our friends in the TKD community.

As far as you cool head and lack of anyone on this board I congratulate you. Some of your training has paid off. There is no need to fear anyone here because as far as I know nobody here is challenging anyone to a physical confrontation. We are all here sharing our thoughts and ideas and if a few of them have rubbed you the wrong way then I am sorry. I think the old sticks and stones lesson may apply here. After all at the end of the day does this message board really have an affect on any of us? Other than the fun conversations I have, once I shut my computer off this board is the furthest thing from my mind. Sorry all!

This thread started with the one thing we all know is the most contreversial in the martial arts. RANK. Look what it has done. It has upset people, lead to people having shots taken at their given art of choice and people personally no matter how small, and just overall put another dividing line between some of us. How unfortunate that a piece of paper and a cotton belt has done this. Maybe Mr. Miyagi from the karate kid had it right when he said " belt does nothing more than hold up pants." There is a lot to be said for that movie as I get older.

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

 

[kroh]

" belt does nothing more than hold up pants."

Sing it on the mountain, Brother!

I think since it has been around twenty years since that movie was made, they should do a remake. I would volunteer to be Daniel San but I am too old and grey to measure up.

Regards,
Walt

 

[terryl965]

Here is an Ideal for all involved in MA and are school owners we drop are rank and see how many student come running in for classes, you see rank is an issue when people are looking for instructors and I agree legit rank is most important to all of us.

So the delima is always going to be here no matter what all of us do, we have to have structure in our systems, for people are tought that from elementary school that structure and a rank system is in place.

I see no ends to a means here except leave as status and let the chips fall as they may and for those instructors that have done away with a rank system I would love to hear how there school is going without one?
Terry

 

[chinto01]

I understand that we cannot just drop rank now. It has come to far and "customers" / future students are looking for that. Wether it is legit or not they will never know. I guess the phrase "it is what it is" comes to mind here. People think we will be able to change what is going on with the ranks and phony certificates. That will never happen. There are to many dojos and styles to clean this up. I have said this in another thread but I do not look at my belt as rank. I look at it more a memories.

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob