American Martial Arts: Issue of rank

[Brother John]

WOW.
LOVE that Google!


I thought you'd created a HUGE post with a touchy subject for your first post on Martial Talk.
Really, you wrote this about Two years ago didn't you? Found it on usadojo.com
and here's another!

also: if you are excaping the propagation of anything steming from the orient, then why continue the use of the term "Master"?
On the page showing your certificates and plaques it shows you have the title "Sifu" given to you by
were you awarded this by the "Masters Council"?

Here's why I'm wondering these thigns.

I think you bring up things concerning the martial arts trends of rank abuse. I really do. But then whenever someone brings up issues of "Rank" I tend to wonder why.
People in our martial arts culture tend to be "rank hungry" and like to throw around terms and stripes like crazy...they'll go to certificate mills and churn things out....as though credentials were something that one could buy. The bonefides of "Master", "Sensei" or "Sifu" are, I think, earned by the hearts and minds and development of ones students; not associations or organizations.
People who Don't take that route often look at rank as "Sour Grapes", and talk about how it didn't used to be there......what'd people do BEFORE the black belt was invented?? That sort of thing. Instead of chasing down rank (or earning it through legit means, which would be best of course) they talk it down and bring up other systems and practices. (deserved or not) I often find this to be the case with your average MMA or "American" systems. They often speak of throwing out anything "asian" or not "American".
Common.
You spoke of this, yet on your arts home page....apparently your crest is represented with some oriental characters.
See, you came in with what looked to me to be a prefab chip on your shoulder about rank: THROWS up a red flag in my mind. (as it did with others of my martial arts family here who instantly started asking about YOU and your background....leading you to tell them they were getting off track) So then you wrote a great deal. Apparently now, it seems to me that you didn't really "Write it", at least not this time....but maybe cut and pasted. So be it, who cares. But this shows me that this is more than just some idle conversation start and "Hey guys on Martial Talk, names' Brad...." type intro. It's your main beef and you hit the ground running with it. (as you have on AT LEAST two other martial arts forums w/in the last TWO YEARS) To me that speaks of agenda, which makes people investigate you further.

SO before we buy the speil hook line and sinker OR go debating too far or get to long winded (too late ) I think it'd be good to know......why this argument....
again
on another website/forum??
What are you looking for?

Validation?
an argument?
or did you really come here to just chew the cud with other martial artists??

In the spirit of the arts...
Your Brother
John

 

[chinto01]

One word. WOW


In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

 

[terryl965]

Kasho why are you here what is the bottom line for your decussion?
What is it you are trying to accomplish with this thread?

Brother John has brought up some valed points here. Can you and will you please explain your thoughts about rank, when you look to have a shady one yourself?

I would like to have an intelligent conversation with you and hopefully everybody here can give you a break to explain.
I thank you in advance.
Terry

 

[Brother John]

This is probably one of the main reasons why people frown upon kata. If someone really doesn't have an indepth knowledge of it, the teaching of it is going to be limited.

Mike

GOOD point Mike!
I also think that this is related to the reason that, often times, American Kenpoists don't fair as well at open tournaments in the "Forms" devision. (Generally: there are definite exceptions) This is especially true in areas where there just isn't many Kenpo schools, or at least not as many who compete. When people who study other styles observe the performance of say Long 3, they don't know what to make of it. THe rythm is different, the movements different....not showy....etc.
Thing is, we MUST know the uses and applications (Bunkai) of each and every movement, as well as a few variations of same. It makes the expression of each movement very purposeful...but also...IF you don't know the purpose of each move....it can look "odd" to you.

Something to think about.

Your Brother
John

 

[Kasho]

John,

As to what people know or don’t know is fairly easy to tell when you have been in the arts as long as I and have trained with so many people, talked to people from around the world and so on.

As to the Matsumura /Funakoshi statement; this is widely known and spoke of. Sorry if you have been left out of the loop. A good book for you would be Sotokan’s secret, the hidden truth behind karate’s fighting origins.
This is a good book for anyone that has not read it. It talks about Matsumura, Funakoshi, Itosu and all the boys. It speaks on how religion affected the arts and who was reality was in control of the ryu kyu island. A great read and I would agree with much of the research done on this subject.

As far as you not wishing to be argumentative, Yes you do! What is being stated here is easy to understand, it should not be so hard to comprehend.

We are talking about the selling of belts (I have seen done with no test given to under belts with time in) and self-promotion as well as association misconduct to keep people in line and working for them. There is the one-ups man-ship and the ego at work here as well as the all mighty dollar.

Anyone cannot see this if you wish to keep your eyes closed.


Funakoshi changed karate when he started using black belt (and later cooler belts), don’t forget the master belts that then came into play. Hwang Kee changed the black belt in TSD to the Midnight Blue.

Leaders change things when it is need if a system is being abused, followers do not.


Don’t just accept what is told to you by your instructor, he in many cases is just repeating what he was told and that could be wrong. Take the initiative and research things you hear see or think of on your own, don’t necessarily think that someone is wrong just because you’ve never heard something before.

This was to be the end of the post but I just seen LJ post and guess I need to respond to appease him.

The term master if we have to break it down for you was first used in the west! Master refers to being a master instructor. The amma master’s council you bring up is new to me, this must have been something that has been added fairly recently. I have not been a member with them since 2004 (four year membership). My bad as they should be moved into the passed association group (big deal). Now onto our logo, if you looked at IT (logo, not the back of the shirt) you will see that it does have characters on it as a sign of respect to the east, but if you look at the bottom of the logo it will say USA (da).

Other boards:

http://www.warrior-scholar.com/wforum/viewtopic.php?t=1171

On this board link above I post this first:

Wow, I never thought I would see this discussion here.

Below I am posting something that I wrote sometime back about rank as it pertained to the American martial arts.

Now you may not see it applying to your art but it has in the last 14/17 months had people reducing or dropping all rank from their styles/system.

If nothing else it's something to think about.

Thanks.
----------

Maybe should have done that here for you LJ but I didn’t think of this at the time.

Martial Warrior has the same topic on it and it has run for a long time.

Many people there have had time to digest this and many have started reducing and some dropping rank.

Okay people, again I have nothing to hide, this is being brought forward on a mass scale to get people thinking and to stop wide scale abuse. And far as for myself I could care less what your little opinion is about me and what I do, it in insignificant.

My point here is just because you don’t like the topic you seem to have some little need to attack the presenter. Attack with knowledge on the subject if you can. If you cant then research it and then come back.

I understand I maybe striking at your bottom dollar if you are someone that is abusing your students or maybe you are a self-promoter, I don’t care, I am just looking for intelligent communication on the subject. With no hidden agenda!

You don’t have to hold on to your belt with both hands, I don’t wont it! lol


Brad

If you would like more information on me or what I do you only have to ask! You may PM/email or you may even call me if you wish. One board selected our system as an art of the month and a great deal of info can be found there. Not trying to shamelessly promote, here just laying it out for you. :asian:

 

[chinto01]

Brad I agree with your comment about the selling of belts. I think we all agree but why as martial artists why do we continue to dwell on it? As I have posted before there have been a number of threads on this subject and I think most people are tired of beating this dead horse. I know I am. We complain that the martial arts is never seen for the true beauty of it. It never will be if we continue to ponder on petty issues such as rank, who issued it, and how much it cost. We all know their are phonys out there. My thoughts are acknowledge it and move on. We will never weed them out.

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

 

[Kasho]

Brad I agree with your comment about the selling of belts. I think we all agree but why as martial artists why do we continue to dwell on it? As I have posted before there have been a number of threads on this subject and I think most people are tired of beating this dead horse. I know I am. We complain that the martial arts is never seen for the true beauty of it. It never will be if we continue to ponder on petty issues such as rank, who issued it, and how much it cost. We all know their are phonys out there. My thoughts are acknowledge it and move on. We will never weed them out.

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

Dead horse maybe, but should we not bury it to keep it from stinking.

Weed them all out, we can’t! But if we change what the standard norm is it will in effect decrease the amount of abuse.

The great things in the arts are what we all need to find. There are so many positive things but there is the bad as well. But if an injustice is being done and we do nothing then we have chosen a course of action.

Thanks for the reply!

Brad
The loveable.

 

[Flying Crane]

But if an injustice is being done and we do nothing then we have chosen a course of action.

Thanks for the reply!

Brad
The loveable.

Injustices are certainly being done in many cases, with regard to rank. But there are plenty of instructors who maintain integrity with regard to how they deal with and issue rank as well. It is impossible to clean up the arts with regard to this. It is simply the way it is, not much that can be done globally.

I think it is up to people on an indivudual level to decide what is right for them and their school. If you see a way to handle rank that is different, but you feel will make more sense, or somehow be "cleaner", then go for it. If you are content with whatever ranking system you have inherited from your instructor, then keep it.

Nobody can be a watchdog or police officer over the arts. Sometimes this is too bad, but overall we are better for it. I would hate to see the state of the arts if somehow they came under the jurisdiction of a government agency or something. All we need is a bunch of beaurocrats trying to control the arts. what a nightmare that would be.

 

[Kasho]

Government agency would be a bad way to go. As you said to what degree we go and in what direction is up to the school art and instructors, but there are ways to cut down on this abuse and I think (not all have to agree) we should take a stand and do what we can.

Some people can and do maintain high levels of integrity when it comes to rank and for that they be applauded. But these too are the people what you will find that are the most disgusted with what is going on.

Oh, Wow, you guys have shut down geocities!

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Thank’s for wishing to learn more! lol.

Michael, thank for your response.

Brad

 

[Brother John]

As to what people know or don’t know is fairly easy to tell when you have been in the arts as long as I and have trained with so many people, talked to people from around the world and so on.

Brad-
From what you've said, and from what I've read, you and I probably began the martial arts in the early 70's. We've both "Been around" and had several fine instructors. I don't agree that this makes either of us an authority or even well informed as to what a master who lived in a different century in a different part of the world Knew, taught or wasn't taught. In fact, the more we are "out there" in the martial arts world....the more hearsay sinks in and begins to be accepted as "true".
How is it "fairly easy to tell" these things about an instructor who was not yours, nor even Your instructors instructor??

As to the Matsumura /Funakoshi statement; this is widely known and spoke of. Sorry if you have been left out of the loop. A good book for you would be Sotokan’s secret, the hidden truth behind karate’s fighting origins.
This is a good book for anyone that has not read it. It talks about Matsumura, Funakoshi, Itosu and all the boys. It speaks on how religion affected the arts and who was reality was in control of the ryu kyu island. A great read and I would agree with much of the research done on this subject.

Left out of the Loop.
I like that.

Actually, one book on one mans thoughts on the subject does not make it a fact. I think you meant Shotokan's Secret, right? Dr. Clayton's presumptions about how Karate was developed to fight US Marines is rediculous. He admits in the text of the book that any factual records of the Ryu Kyu islands during this time is scarce and questionable....yet goes on to paint an elaborate picture of "What really happened". It's a postulate pseudo-history and nothing more than an overstated "What-if".
It's a laughable book, EXCEPT for his research into the creation of certain Kata....that alone makes it worth picking up at your local used book store.
(Not QUITE as out of the loop as you might think Brad)

As far as you not wishing to be argumentative, Yes you do! What is being stated here is easy to understand, it should not be so hard to comprehend.

OK...I didn't start out that way, but then I looked deeper and started paying heed to those redflags a wavin...
guilty as charged, I do wish to challenge your presumptions on this issue. BUT: it should be stated that we do agree on some things. I hate how rank is abused in the USA (it's the only place I can speak for, being an American).
What you write is plain and I find it very easy to comprehend, just not always so easy to swallow. It's your motivation for your argument and how you've been placing it throughout the internet for over two years....while some of the things you and your group (groups) do contradicts what you are saying here (and on all those other forums).

I can comprehend your words just fine, understanding your intentions takes some more investigation and discernment however. This was your FIRST pop here on Martial Talk, and it was a big one. So we don't know you, we don't know where you are coming from and you chime in with your first words being the equivalent of "what's wrong with the martial arts world today".....
so you Will be, and have been, scrutinized Brad.

We are talking about the selling of belts (I have seen done with no test given to under belts with time in) and self-promotion as well as association misconduct to keep people in line and working for them. There is the one-ups man-ship and the ego at work here as well as the all mighty dollar.

Yes, you have brought thouse things up. BUT: THat's not all you've brought up.
You've also brought up how we, in America or "American" systems/styles use oriental/asian terms for our ranks....and other such things. It seems that you pretty much question the use of rank at all, but in your school pics there seems to be plenty of belt wearing. That's fine, I'm just looking for consistency between words and practice. It's part of getting to know someone Brad, an integrity check shouldn't make someone with integrity squeek.

Anyone cannot see this if you wish to keep your eyes closed.

usually a convoluted syntax won't throw me.
You managed it.

Leaders change things when it is need if a system is being abused, followers do not.

Agreed!!! Much agreed.
But at somepoint there's a line crossed when a Follower BECOMES the leader, or becomes A leader. Is it OK for them to make changes then?
Seems by your own words, it would be okay.

Don’t just accept what is told to you by your instructor, he in many cases is just repeating what he was told and that could be wrong. Take the initiative and research things you hear see or think of on your own, don’t necessarily think that someone is wrong just because you’ve never heard something before.

Okay, Brad....relax a sec here..
You don't know me.
I do my research, I question and probe. I've done that for years. I don't 'drink the cool-aid' at the dojo. I know that many people regurgitate "Facts" that have been accepted for years w/out knowing the substance of the truth. For instance: Certain Sensei of the past didn't know nor teach the true Bunkai. I don't accept that, I research it. You tell me "It's commonly known and has been talked about your years."
Which is it Brad? Should I accept what's "commonly known" and regurgitated?? Or should I do my own research and question "Oh yeah? Well how do YOU Know that???"....because that's what I did Brad. Then I get told I'm "out of the loop". So I should question my instructors, just not You?

don’t necessarily think that someone is wrong just because you’ve never heard something before.

Yes!
Nor should I think someone is RIGHT just because they insist they are or because they quote the general authority of the masses and say "Everyone knows it's true...."

This was to be the end of the post but I just seen LJ post and guess I need to respond to appease him.

You don't need to "appease" any of us!
But you should know that when you make broad sweeping statements right out of the gate....you're going to be gone over with a strong magnifying glass...so don't shake when what you say or what you say you "know" gets questioned. It's odd that one who's been around the block so long doesn't expect that.
Say what you want to say, we'll question what we want to question. It's just odd to get heat for questioning what someone else puts out there.

Now onto our logo, if you looked at IT (logo, not the back of the shirt) you will see that it does have characters on it as a sign of respect to the east, but if you look at the bottom of the logo it will say USA (da).

First, I was wondering, could you help me understand what (da) means?
It was obviously put there purposefully, and I don't want to be out of the loop.
Thanks

Yes, it says "USA"..but if it's wrong to go by "Dan & Kyu" ranks because these are words from the orient, then why give a nod to the orient at all?
Can the people who visit the elementary school you teach in discern Japanese Kanji?? What use does Japanese lettering have to a school who leaves the traces of the "east" behind?
Seems........disjointed: Philosophy/<->\Practice.

Okay people, again I have nothing to hide, this is being brought forward on a mass scale to get people thinking and to stop wide scale abuse. And far as for myself I could care less what your little opinion is about me and what I do, it in insignificant.

Your crusade to end wide scale rank abuse with your widespread essay isn't working...
I see Rank abuse all the time.
I don't have a "little Opinion" about you, I wanted to engage you in dialogue about why you are putting forward what you are and trying to contrast that with your own practices. I wasn't being rude, I was questioning....which you've now encouraged me to do. People have been "thinking" for sometime before your essay on rank abuse... you can find lots here on Martial Talk alone about it. What you are saying isn't new, and much of what you said is true. Rank DOES get abused to the point that it almost loses it's meaning. BUT: I don't care what the gym down the street does....I care about me and mine....and I KNOW what my rank means, and the rank of my instructors and students....so I'm ok.

My point here is just because you don&#8217;t like the topic you seem to have some little need to attack the presenter. Attack with knowledge on the subject if you can. If you cant then research it and then come back.

I like the topic.
When did I say I didn't???
So....investigating who you are and what you do and then bringing up what looks to be inconsistencies is "attacking"? OK....that makes sense.......I guess.
I've got knowledge, I was looking for understanding of where you were coming from. If you don't want scrutiny on you, don't put yourself or your words out there.....especially on martial talk, It Will Get Challeneged.
I've done my research, for years....and I know how I feel about what I've found. MY knowledge isn't the point of discussion, because it's not MY thread...it's yours. I asked for evidence or proof on some things...and you came back with the authority of the unseen masses..."Everyone knows"....etc.

I am just looking for intelligent communication on the subject. With no hidden agenda!

I've tried to talk with you about it, so have others....you've skirted anyone that hasn't outright agreed with 100% of what you've said.
So is "Intelligent" conversation...conversation that agrees with you??
IF....IF you have NO hidden agenda, great. Why the knee jerk reaction to being questioned or for asking about your background, or when someone looks up the websites and posts you've put out into the Internet????
also: IF someone DID have a hidden agenda, do they say so? Or do they claim to NOT have one.
..there's just a little something to think about..

You don&#8217;t have to hold on to your belt with both hands, I don&#8217;t wont it!

Then you assume that you know why I, or we, are doing or saying what we are.
That's silly, and so is this comment about belts.
You could have mine, and the cert it came with...
because they are based on something that could never be taken away, and baked up with the good will and faith of instructors that gave of themselves..
the belt is the sign, not the substance.

I hope you stick around Brad.
HONESTLY, NOT for arguments....but because maybe you do have some good knowledge and experience to share beyond your stongly held beliefs and opinions.
I hope so.


Your Brother
John

 

[chinto01]

Brad I may be looking at this wrong but are you implying that we need to have set ranking standards for martial arts in the U.S.? If so how would that be done? I am also wondering why you are so hung up on this subject. Are there not bigger issues we have as martial artists?

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

 

[Brother John]

I am also wondering why you are so hung up on this subject. Are there not bigger issues we have as martial artists?

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

see..
I'm NOT the only one who wants to discuss, yet Question Why you are "hung up" on this.
Rob's just wanting to understand too.
Do you think HE is attacking also??

Personally: I've come to the conclusion that those who abuse rank REEK of it, and for those of us that've been around the block a time or two..it saves us the time we would have spent trying to get to know them. It's like a warning that says "Stay back".
..or a sign on the dojo window, right below the instructors "Rank"...saying:
Warning: Schmuck on board!"

I just feel very sorry for the neophyte who wonders in off the street and thinks that they are authentic, because they don't know any better.
THERE is where the REAL damage is done.


Your Brother
John

 

[Kreth]

Okay people, again I have nothing to hide, this is being brought forward on a mass scale to get people thinking and to stop wide scale abuse. And far as for myself I could care less what your little opinion is about me and what I do, it in insignificant.

So should we bow our little insignificant heads and accept the light of your spam--er, message? You're a class act, Brad.

 

[Monadnock]

Now you may not see it applying to your art but it has in the last 14/17 months had people reducing or dropping all rank from their styles/system.

Sounds like that is a desired result of your posting here. Perhaps it is necessary in schools where rank has run amuck, but I don't think it should be done blindly.

Rank also indicates responsibility; resposibility on the part of the student. Not all schools use rank, including a lot of koryu styles, but then they are very selective on who gets to train in the first place.

In the end, I think your article only targets a certain percentage of schools/studios that we already know not to get into. It's good for beginners who read here to help keep them on the straight and narrow, but I don't think it will change much else.

 

[Kasho]

My original post is below here (keep that in mind) but I do wish to respond to what John said to some degree.

Scrutinized: Fine to some level, but bashed is different! (Not just talking about you here).

Again I have said my past and present are out there and it could explain a lot.

My students can write Chinese numbers learn history from many cultures and are educated about many arts and past instructors. I think this is a good thing and it is assimilated into what we do. We are not like Korea wishing to kick all things Japanese out of our country, it&#8217;s just we have paid our dues and can due as we wish with out having to ask permission.

We have a Five Dan system with further plains of reduction. As I have posted on other boards on this subject, we are reducing under-belt ranks the middle of this month.

I have posted elsewhere that this needs to be down slowly not with reckless abandon.

I did if John&#8217;s post to be a little hostel but also with some good replies, some assumptions on his part as to some of my meanings but on the web you can&#8217;t explain everything as well as you can in person. Facial expressions and emotion and sincerity are also lost. That just part of the web!

Again I like much of your post! I&#8217;m not going anywhere for long, and I think we will have much to discuss on many topics in the future.

And yes thanks for the post.
-----------------------------
Okay I started to post and again more responses.

I think much of why I would like to see a reduction has already been posted. I was hoping other (and some have) would come in and talk about this from a stand point and how we may curb it.
Thanks!

---------------------
I will try to be back for one last post before I head out on a small vacation tonight. Anniversary on the 5th and my birthday on the 9th.

On the board I have made no character assignation of any member here or have I questioned anyone about there training or past history.

On the other hand I have been attacked and questioned and had many assumptions made incorrectly and have complied with all your questions.

I could look at anyone here or your instructors or the founders of your arts and raise questions and make something&#8217;s seem to be some kind of conspiracy or impropriety. Anyone of us could throw doubts on anyone here and in doing so damage the reputation of a very good and reputable person.

Extra comments like:
when you look to have a shady one yourself?

Bring noting of substance to a question but only cast a cloud on the person being asked.

Come on people have you no honor, have the arts not taught you this?

I must say I am having fun here and I do like this board.

Later,
Brad

 

[kroh]

Holy thread. Usually I come on to Martial Talk, read a couple of threads, and that will last me for a few weeks. Even though this thread has had its ups and downs, it has been an enjoyable read. All sides involved have kept their heads and pretty much been polite (even to the point of using good natured jabs and a lot of winking).

Like some one else said in the thread, America is all about bringing in stuff from other countries and using it like it was ours to begin with (i'll cawl ya latah, I have ta bring my kid ta krahty). Just because the precepts and concepts are from another side of the globe, it doesn't mean that we can't bring in these concepts and use them as our own. The whole belt system thing can be good for the instructor with too many students to keep track or for scheduling. He could use them as an award for winning events or to signify an achievement. It was a neat idea back in the day and it could still have merrit. The thing to remember is that the system that was instituted in Japan back at the turn of the 20th century is not necessarily what is accepted practice today.

The problem that we have with any activity that chooses to use a complex social structure is that it is vulnerable to abbuse. This abbuse is mostly due to the fact that the structure does not have inherrant penalties for when its tennants are violated. Impersonating a police officer in America gets you into some pretty hot water. Not many people run around my area claiming to be cops when they are not. This sort of thing happens all the time in the martial arts world when a two year (I studied once a week for two years...so that's two years of training!...ahem...yeah right) veteran decides that he's stumbled onto a great business venture in the martial arts where nothing is actually regulated (Ever see some of the chumps that claim they are Supreme Burrito Grand Masters? Three Words: The Ra Py.). Because there are no penalties (I WILL KILL YOU IF YOU CLAIM THAT AGAIN!) for impersonating a martial artsist, anyone can claim anything and if they are a exposed... they can go on being a fraud even after the fact is made public.

This is especially tough for a ranked individual in one system to leave and go to a new school only to find out he has the fighting prowess of a bowl of soup. I wouldn't want to have the martial arts regulated in this country (USA) as anyone who just wanted to teach their kids would technically be commiting a crime. I do think people should try to check out what they are getting into a bit more. With the advent of the internet and it being easier to find some one (like you find on this board) who are willing to help people out, people should be more informed about the Kung Frauds that are looking to sucker people in to inflate wallet and ego.

Some things that others are doing to correct the rank structure issues in this country:

*Going back to a more streamlined ranking structure that has a few kyu ranks and a more sensible dan structure. This would include the use of sensible ranking belts that are not fraught with tassles and writing and all sorts of interesting devices Elvis would have envied.

*Doing away with ranks and visible awards (such as belts, stripes, SWAT Patches :idunno: , and rank slats) all together and going with either a graduated leveling system or using no system at all (such as in some of the older examples of the arts that have survived untill now).

*Doing away with Honoriffics whose only purpose is to inflate ego (Supreme Great Grand Master)

*Disposing of the Keikogi as a time honored uniform and going with something more modern and sensible such as a t/ polo shirt and a pair of short/ sweat / khaki /cargo pants.

There are many things that we as a community can do to prevent the abuse of rank in this country and thereby have martial arts programs that serve their intended purposes. Education in the areas of what a quality ranking structure is, would be a good start (I am sure there is a better way to say that but I just can't string it together at the moment).

If we educate the new generations as to what to look out for, we can immunize them to an extent against the frauds and idiots just out for self gratification. The thing we have to be careful of is that we don't harden them against innovations and new ideas that may turn what we know on its head and change things for the better.

Regards,
Walt

 

[chinto01]

Great post Walt and I agree with some of your suggestions. All in all this has been one of the better conversations that has not gotten that heated. I understand we as Americans wish to import things here and possibly change it to fit our needs. I also feel that before we do that we should do a little background investigation first. Imagine what the outcome would have been if the people who brought some of these arts to the states had actually done the research on rank and why it was created. I think things may have turned out a bit different. But that means we would have had to preserve some of the culture from which these arts came and I do not think people would have accepted that fully. I remember being a kyu rank and cleaning the dojo after every class. Never knew why I did it I just did and I hated it. Then I went to Okinawa and trained there and saw everyone cleaning the dojo. It was explianed to me that it is the students job to keep the dojo clean as a way of thanking Sensei. Then it made sense to me why I had done it through the kyu ranks. Now if that practice were explained from the beginning I may have not been so upset about doing it.

The point I am trying to make is that we have a habit of taking things from other cultures that we do not understand. We switch it around to fit our needs without explaining it to anyone and then wonder why it ends up as mess. Just like the cleaning of the dojo.

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

 

[Robert Lee]

As each M/a art left its host country it adapted to meet the needs of the people from the new country it was introduced to. This case America. As that it should changes in the format of teaching. Far as rank well thats a personal thing. And when you have rank you really do not think much about it. Sure some want to over rank there self to impress others but most often They are a small group. Nothing to worry with. To those who read this and have rank do you look at your knowledge around your waist or is it in your mind. Hopefully the mind and that is where your truth lays when you train or when you instruct. America should be proud for how they have come along ways in spreadin the M/A and also exposing some truths that truth is M/A isa no great magic you have to train to do it and M/A is just another way of both fighting and liveing Nothing to argue over be it american or from china, ect,

 

[kroh]

The point I am trying to make is that we have a habit of taking things from other cultures that we do not understand. We switch it around to fit our needs without explaining it to anyone and then wonder why it ends up as mess. Just like the cleaning of the dojo.

I agree with this. Americans are very wqucik to embrace the latest this or that from here or there without fully checking up on it first. Might be a trait left over from our exploratory nature or from the fact that we are all just plain dull in the senses. In any case, I beleive rank can and does have its place if it is used wisely.

It is that last word, wisely, that makes the difference. If Mr. Reynolds is on a crusade to rid America of its fractured rank systems, he is in for quite the fight. Even the new program ushered in by the Marines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Corps_Martial_Arts_Program) have decided to use a belt system. I Personally do not like to wear a belt as a symbol of rank. I prefer to wear one for its intedned function. All that other stuff doesn't appeal to me, but it does to some people and I think there are some quality programs that have a good system for the assignment of rank in place. Now all we have to do is get rid of the charlatans and thugs who would poison the good wells.

...But I leave that fight to Mr. Reynolds...

Regards,
Walt

 

[Brother John]

Ok...
good. I'm glad you'll be around Brad! Thank you for replying in a very level headed way too. That helps. I'll try to be as open and obvious as well.

Now you've hit on something that I find very interesting, the stream-lining of the belt system. Could you go into what this means to you? For instance does it mean a reduction of curriculum or will you have the same amount of curriculum in the entire system.....just LARGER belts?
You said that you have a 5Dan system now. Is that something that you decided upon yourself or do you have some sort of commitee? Did this (is this) met with much resistance??

Intriguing...


Love to hear more about how you're going about it and why.

Your Brother
John

PS: with statements like this:

I could look at anyone here or your instructors or the founders of your arts and raise questions and make something&#8217;s seem to be some kind of conspiracy or impropriety. Anyone of us could throw doubts on anyone here and in doing so damage the reputation of a very good and reputable person.

Might want to check out the book: "How to win friends and influence people"
It's a good'n......