American Martial Arts: Issue of rank
- Thread starter Kasho
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Purple Belt
I have been reading over the whole thing, more so glancing over it, and there are two aspects to consider in your arguement.
One, is simply that the belt system of Kano was the taken from the coat system of English boarding schools to seperate the grade levels of children. Which makes it and ironically the belt system western in concept.
Two, on the subject of rank and the so called "10th Dans" there are is a simple level of progress learning, knowing and understanding. Understanding, and especially understanding that we are always learning, is of course something that doesn't require a belt but a mature attitude and a commitment to personal excellence.
One, is simply that the belt system of Kano was the taken from the coat system of English boarding schools to seperate the grade levels of children. Which makes it and ironically the belt system western in concept.
Two, on the subject of rank and the so called "10th Dans" there are is a simple level of progress learning, knowing and understanding. Understanding, and especially understanding that we are always learning, is of course something that doesn't require a belt but a mature attitude and a commitment to personal excellence.
chinto01
Black Belt
I think that rank is one of the biggest hang ups in the martial arts. It has and always will restrict our growth as martial artists if we let it. Are we not tired of conversations that constantly deal with this? I know I am. Let me throw this back at you. Why did people seek out Sensei such as Motobu, Kyan, Matsumura, and Itosu when there was no rank?
In the spirit of bushido!
Rob
In the spirit of bushido!
Rob
Okay, The old system is flawed. If you are a six Dan and the highest Dan in your art and your master dies what are you to do? The old rule is you must be two Dan ranks higher than what you are promoting someone up to (a 4th ). Now you die/retire or are forced to move away then your 4th can only promote up to a 2nd Dan. This can go on and on. This is what has happened in the past. So arts die, someone self promotes (just like the founder) and then you are left with people that have no ideal of the true bunkai of the katas (hyungs, heains) or the arts. So what has truly happened to the art?
Now today in this country there are many association paid for or self promoted 10th Dans, but many in the U.S have a higher standard to rank than what the fist members of ones art had. Have you ever wondered why you were told never to ask your Asian forefathers about rank or question them about their training? Of course we were told this is a great sign of disrespect, but in truth there were in many cases much to hide.
Kano as we know was a physical-ed instructor and it is believed that he may have got the ideal for the belt structure by watching swim meets, noting the colored bans they wore to distinguish levels of ability.
The Dan system today is not used, accepted or understood for its original purpose and it had been terrible abused over the last 80+ years (for karate).
For the most part rank was for administrative and competition purpose only, it was not as strictly technique categorized for rank advancement as it is today. This only allows people to split up techniques even more so more belt ranks can be added meaning more tests and more…yes you guessed it money. Just how many color belts are needed? How many degrees are needed for each color belt? And why so many Dan ranks when half are for the most part only honorary.
This for the true caring instructor is absurd. Only the well off should be able to study the arts? What if you have the ability and no money? Sorry kid, no money no belt?
What about Dan ranks? 200.00/2,000.00 1st Dan tests. Then you must keep paying for the other Dan ranks. Do we need to pay so much to buy respect? Sorry that little belt will not save your life!
Okay, I’m going to stop now to keep this short (right), but I have much more on this abuse in many different manners.
Reduction does not mean total removal of belts/Dans, don’t be scared.
Later,
B. Reynolds
Now today in this country there are many association paid for or self promoted 10th Dans, but many in the U.S have a higher standard to rank than what the fist members of ones art had. Have you ever wondered why you were told never to ask your Asian forefathers about rank or question them about their training? Of course we were told this is a great sign of disrespect, but in truth there were in many cases much to hide.
Kano as we know was a physical-ed instructor and it is believed that he may have got the ideal for the belt structure by watching swim meets, noting the colored bans they wore to distinguish levels of ability.
The Dan system today is not used, accepted or understood for its original purpose and it had been terrible abused over the last 80+ years (for karate).
For the most part rank was for administrative and competition purpose only, it was not as strictly technique categorized for rank advancement as it is today. This only allows people to split up techniques even more so more belt ranks can be added meaning more tests and more…yes you guessed it money. Just how many color belts are needed? How many degrees are needed for each color belt? And why so many Dan ranks when half are for the most part only honorary.
This for the true caring instructor is absurd. Only the well off should be able to study the arts? What if you have the ability and no money? Sorry kid, no money no belt?
What about Dan ranks? 200.00/2,000.00 1st Dan tests. Then you must keep paying for the other Dan ranks. Do we need to pay so much to buy respect? Sorry that little belt will not save your life!
Okay, I’m going to stop now to keep this short (right), but I have much more on this abuse in many different manners.
Reduction does not mean total removal of belts/Dans, don’t be scared.
Later,
B. Reynolds
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Well, I've stated my thoughts in previous threads, but since this one is so appropriate, i'll lay it down again. My apologies to those who have already read my thoughts in the past.
Personally, I think rank can be useful, particularly for the beginners. If used appropriatedly it can be a source of motivation for a beginner to train hard and keep up enthusiasm for training and learning.
However, after beginner level, one should no longer need the carrot of rank dangled in front of their face to keep them motivated. Once one progresses beyond the level of a beginner, if they cannot find the motivation within themselves to train and learn, then they really continue to just be a beginner. One of an advanced level should not need outside motivators and rewards such as rank, to keep them motivated.
So my suggestion to rank is this: keep the rank system up to black belt. The lower level students can still be motivated by this system. But eliminate all the various levels of black belt. Keep only two levels of black belt. The first is simply Black Belt, Non-Instructor. The second is Black Belt, Instructor. No more than this. Instructor rank would be given when one's instructor feels you are ready for it. It could be done at the same time one reaches black belt, or sometime later, or never, whatever your instructor feels is appropriate. Once you are granted instructor status, you can teach and promote, all the way up to instructor. Eliminate the "Two Levels Down Promotion" rules, and the like. They just make things messy.
I think the many levels of black belt also enable people to keep control over others. They form a big organization, hold high rank themselves, and lord over those of lesser rank. It keeps people who are otherwise talented martial artists and instructors under their thumb, and I really think much of it comes down to control issues. Well, ok, with my proposed system it would sort of force people to relinquish control. Once Instructor rank is given, the new instructor is free to do what he will and his instructor needs to trust him. Of course they could still work together to maintain standards and such, but the license is the license and that's it. As an instructor, don't give the license to those who you think are unworthy, 'cause once it's given, that's it.
Now I know we all like to say, "reaching first degree black belt is really just the beginning, you are now just a serious beginner". OK, fine. But maybe a "serious beginner" should be at a high enough level of commitment in his own training that he shouldn't continue to need the prizes and rewards to motivate his training. If he does need the outside motivators, then I suggest he does not deserve that rank, regardless of skill.
Of course we all should continue to learn, and we know that there are others who are far better and know more than us, and it is important to recognize this and respect this. Respect your teachers and those who are your elders and seniors in the arts. But I think further ranks beyond this are just unnecessary. This kind of system would do a lot to streamline things and perhaps eliminate bickering.
I suppose the new "One-Upmanship" would become "I got my Instructor certification BEFORE YOU DID!!" Oh well, there is always something...
Personally, I think rank can be useful, particularly for the beginners. If used appropriatedly it can be a source of motivation for a beginner to train hard and keep up enthusiasm for training and learning.
However, after beginner level, one should no longer need the carrot of rank dangled in front of their face to keep them motivated. Once one progresses beyond the level of a beginner, if they cannot find the motivation within themselves to train and learn, then they really continue to just be a beginner. One of an advanced level should not need outside motivators and rewards such as rank, to keep them motivated.
So my suggestion to rank is this: keep the rank system up to black belt. The lower level students can still be motivated by this system. But eliminate all the various levels of black belt. Keep only two levels of black belt. The first is simply Black Belt, Non-Instructor. The second is Black Belt, Instructor. No more than this. Instructor rank would be given when one's instructor feels you are ready for it. It could be done at the same time one reaches black belt, or sometime later, or never, whatever your instructor feels is appropriate. Once you are granted instructor status, you can teach and promote, all the way up to instructor. Eliminate the "Two Levels Down Promotion" rules, and the like. They just make things messy.
I think the many levels of black belt also enable people to keep control over others. They form a big organization, hold high rank themselves, and lord over those of lesser rank. It keeps people who are otherwise talented martial artists and instructors under their thumb, and I really think much of it comes down to control issues. Well, ok, with my proposed system it would sort of force people to relinquish control. Once Instructor rank is given, the new instructor is free to do what he will and his instructor needs to trust him. Of course they could still work together to maintain standards and such, but the license is the license and that's it. As an instructor, don't give the license to those who you think are unworthy, 'cause once it's given, that's it.
Now I know we all like to say, "reaching first degree black belt is really just the beginning, you are now just a serious beginner". OK, fine. But maybe a "serious beginner" should be at a high enough level of commitment in his own training that he shouldn't continue to need the prizes and rewards to motivate his training. If he does need the outside motivators, then I suggest he does not deserve that rank, regardless of skill.
Of course we all should continue to learn, and we know that there are others who are far better and know more than us, and it is important to recognize this and respect this. Respect your teachers and those who are your elders and seniors in the arts. But I think further ranks beyond this are just unnecessary. This kind of system would do a lot to streamline things and perhaps eliminate bickering.
I suppose the new "One-Upmanship" would become "I got my Instructor certification BEFORE YOU DID!!" Oh well, there is always something...
Brandon Fisher
Master Black Belt
I have heard that promoting the art and doing other beneficial things to benefit the arts in general help you achieve higher rank over 5th dan also.
searcher
Senior Master
I am of the same opinion as Mr. Fisher. I once read in "Zen Combat" by Jay Gluck that Mas Oyama said that after Go-dan your rank is for what you do for the style. The ranks up to and including Go-dan are for what the style has done for you.
I am just echoing Mr. Fisher's statement.
I am just echoing Mr. Fisher's statement.
Brandon Fisher
Master Black Belt
Thanks guys now I feel like I am not being ignored.
Well let’s get real; they have to have some reason to justify GIVING you a belt. lol
Look this is a schools/association way of keeping you on board with that school or association. In trun they continues to grow in numbers, which means money. It is a retention tool.
Brad
Look this is a schools/association way of keeping you on board with that school or association. In trun they continues to grow in numbers, which means money. It is a retention tool.
Brad
Kasho said:
Some organizations give you a belt, that's true; there's a truly nasty McDojo in Denver that offers contracts, which guarantee a certain rank if you show up often enough... and are written such that you continue to pay whether you show up or not.
On the other hand, there are organizations which charge only enough to cover the cost of the testing instructor and materials, and which will fail you if you don't meet their standards for a particular rank. I belong to one such organization: testing fees are assessed to cover the cost of the testing instructor (often from out of state, with seminars held to offset the costs, such as travel expenses) and students fail - one of mine failed her I Dan test, and had to wait at least 6 months to retest... and the retest was free. She passed the second time, but had she failed again and had to retest a second time, it would have remained free.
Many organizations are in the middle; there are standards for testing, but no one really fails... they just get labelled "probationary" until they make up whatever they miss, but people who don't meet the standards are failed, however well that failure is hidden.
Most first-world countries are hierarchical in nature; look at the organization of businesses, of high school and college sports (varsity and junior varsity, for example), seeding in professional and amateur sports, dog and cat shows (and other animals), education... the list goes on. Also, as has been previously discussed, belts demonstrate progress; they provide goals and guidelines for self-improvement; they provide information about who has knowledge/experience and who doesn't - useful for students and instructors alike, as junior students are often intimidated by the most senior, but are willing to go to students just above their own level for assistance.
Does that make the ranking system perfect? Not at all. Ranking systems can (and too often are) be abused, to generate revenue, to provide a false sense of accomplishment, to provide an ego boost for the person at the top, and so on. For some styles, non-ranking is appropriate; for others, it is not. Likewise, for some people, non-ranking is appropriate; for others it is not. For myself, certainly, it was an incentive as a color belt; as a black belt, I could take it or leave it - my sole interest in increasing rank is that it provides increasing access to knowledge. Only individuals can decide if a ranked or non-ranked system works for themselves, and only individual practitioners can decide if the rank system in their own style/organization (if a ranking system exists) is working the way it should.
Brother John
Senior Master
I'm NOT saying this because I necessarily disagree with what you said, BUT:Kasho said:
WHY in the world would the "True Bunkai" be left to just the Highest ranked?
If the Bunkai doesn't go hand in hand with the kata, it's a DEAD kata with no use.
As soon as you learn the form you must learn the function. SO at least THIS section of your arguement falls flat.
Your Brother
John
Brother John
Senior Master
IN many systems, that's the way it works.Brandon Fisher said:
...and I think it's a good way.
Your Brother
John
True bunkai (getting off track here) in reality is not known by most people. Sorry.
Matsumura is said to not have shared the true bunkai with Funakoshi and others, most just received the watered down version of karate that was taught to school children.
But you must also consider the fact that there are different levels of understanding at different ages in ones life. No matter how one might explain something some people just will not get it till they are more mature and have more wisdom.
And no one said that it was just left to the highest ranked. But they have a better understanding of what it is.
The temples in China were burned three times and many people died. How many arts were lost? How many (we’ll say) yellow sash students now had to become the head instructor of an art?
Much of the past is lost, fact! We all have ideals as to the bunkai of the Pinans but in reality it is only a guess. WE know a block can be more than what it appears and this does need to taught to the students. But many instructors teach the kata and give the bunkai later. Right or wrong, that is the way it is done by many.
Brad
Matsumura is said to not have shared the true bunkai with Funakoshi and others, most just received the watered down version of karate that was taught to school children.
But you must also consider the fact that there are different levels of understanding at different ages in ones life. No matter how one might explain something some people just will not get it till they are more mature and have more wisdom.
And no one said that it was just left to the highest ranked. But they have a better understanding of what it is.
The temples in China were burned three times and many people died. How many arts were lost? How many (we’ll say) yellow sash students now had to become the head instructor of an art?
Much of the past is lost, fact! We all have ideals as to the bunkai of the Pinans but in reality it is only a guess. WE know a block can be more than what it appears and this does need to taught to the students. But many instructors teach the kata and give the bunkai later. Right or wrong, that is the way it is done by many.
Brad
Brandon Fisher
Master Black Belt
There are several 10th Dans that don't teach bunkai at all because they don't know it. They only look at the surface of the kata not the depth. So if there are several 10th dans that are like this there are more lower rank yudansha that do it also.
Brother John
Senior Master
Don't be sorry Brad.Kasho said:
I really don't mean to come off as so argumentative, but I don't think it's off track. If the discussion is people advancing even though the knowledge dwindles from one generation of instructors to the next...and Bunkai is the prime example that You used, it's on track.
My sensei in GoJu Ryu Karate-Do was (IS) excellent, but if I mentioned his name here there'd not be many, if any, that knew his name. The number of Kata he teaches at the dojo is great, but he never teaches a "Dead" kata; one that's removed from it's bunkai. I don't know how he excaped the cycle of diminishing returns that you speak of. I'm not saying that it doesn't exist, but there are plenty of Sensei out there who DO know the proper bunkai.
Also: You mention what some of the higher ranked people in Karate teach or don't teach, know or don't know. I'm wondering how you have this inside information.... do you train with them? Have you?
That's a pretty big statement man.
How do you Know this to be true? OR: Is it just hearsay? Rumor? Which of Matsumura's students backs this up?
OK: Nuf' O' all that. How about this. I'm really trying to wade through all you've said and find the core message. What is the 'thesis' of what your'e saying??
...what's the ponit?
Thanks
Your Brother
John
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