American Martial Arts: Issue of rank

[Kacey]

Sir -

First, welcome to the board!

Second, I'm going to to some of what you said. Rank inflation is, indeed, a serious problem in many organizations. However, I don't think that getting rid of rank entirely is necessarily the answer for all systems. If it works for you, great! There are pleany of people/organizations/styles for which not having ranks is appropriate; however, it is harder/less appropriate for others. Some of this is cultural - hierarchical systems are common throughout the first world, although that is not the only method; in many instances it is not the best method. In addition, many styles were used in the military or in religious institutions which had a hierarchy of some sort, which may or may not have been related to their study of whichever art was being studied and/or developed.

Third, you have provided a comprehensive list of MA and MA-related activities in which you have been involved - but you have not stated which art(s) you study. I ask about this because the art you study will affect your knowledge and attitude on this subject (and many others), as will many other factors. I would request, then, that you identify the art(s) in which you have been involved.

 

[Carol]

Your evasiveness is most curious, Mr. Reynolds.

Personally I find it rather disturbing that you come over to MartialTalk to talk about running your own message board, but when you are asked about your on rank and style...in a discussion you started about rank...you avoid the questions.

As far as whether I enjoyed "your little chat", I'm not so sure I did. What started as an intesting idea is quickly dissolving in to concerns over trust and credibility. You are so willing to link to your message board in your profile yet so unwilling to talk about your own art and rank and become surprisingly defensive when the subject is brought up.

If you are trying to attact traffic to your message board sir please send a PM to Bob Hubbard to discuss an advertising package. He's a great guy wiht very reasonable rates.

Respect sir is an important tenet of Martial Arts. Mr. Hubbard's efforts in making MartialTalk what it is are deserving of that respect. :asian:

 

[terryl965]

Master Reynolds, I took the pleasure of looking you up o th interne:

Kasho Martial Arts was founded in the United States, in 1980, by instructors James Anderson, Brad Reynolds, and Bryan Reynolds.
This freestyle, or eclectic arts concept is, that by combining karate, kung fu, judo and boxing techniques, you have a very effective and rounded martial arts
system. This art is only limited by the instructors? knowledge, and should be in a constant state of change or growth.

This is your style correct?
What ranks do you give your student or do they have no rank, I also would say if you did some sport based as well rank was very much involved?

What is you over all take on what rank should be now a days How does changing the current stucture benefit MA as a whole?

Thank You
Terry

 

[Brandon Fisher]

So someone forms a system them bam their a 10th Dan. Does that sound right to you?

How about someone who earn rank because they placed well in a tournament? Well you have to remember that rank was made for sport. And this does happen.

Yes this does happen and no it doesn't make it right. One of my instructors would promote people kids and adults just for going to a tournament and recieveing a average of 6.00 as a score. Thats crazy has a result the ones who got promoted like that didn't stay and never really learned anything. The ones I personally trained are still around but I am no longer with that group. However 2 of my most senior yudansha came with me. These were 2 that didn't want anything but true training.

And what about that 10th Dan founder, that doesn’t sound right. Lets say he has less than two years or training before he founds his system. Boy in America they would be laughed at. Now no one has the right to do that with that little training. But lets look at Tang Soo Do founder Hwang Kee. That’s just what he did with less than to years of formal training.
Okay so there is a double standard to who can form an art and who may become a legitimate 10th Dan.

No one with 2 years of training has the knowledge to start a new system. After 22 years of intensive training and 12 years of work and reasearch on a separate system I have renamed it and settled on the curriculum and goals. But that will expand it has to.

As far as you sharing your dan grade level and style I have to agree with the others you started out with something that made some sense but now I to am questioning your experience. Not your years in the martial arts, just experience. Clearly you have enough knowledge on the history of the arts and ranking and such to start a thought provoking conversation. Please share your rank and style.

 

[Flying Crane]

well hmmm... Mr. Reynolds started a thread about ranking issues, a topic discussed here before. Sure, it would be nice if Mr. Reynolds would give some more info about himself, and give some more straight answers to the questions asked, but he did not. But do we automatically need to start questioning his motives and accusing him of lack of respect? Why not just engage the topic of discussion, or not, and not worry about whatever personal issues he may or may not have? I am sure over the course of time we will get to know more about him and his experiences. If he has "dishonorable" intentions I am sure they will become apparent at some point and the Administrators can deal with it then, but at this point I don't see any need to throw him under a microscope.

 

[terryl965]

well hmmm... Mr. Reynolds started a thread about ranking issues, a topic discussed here before. Sure, it would be nice if Mr. Reynolds would give some more info about himself, and give some more straight answers to the questions asked, but he did not. But do we automatically need to start questioning his motives and accusing him of lack of respect? Why not just engage the topic of discussion, or not, and not worry about whatever personal issues he may or may not have? I am sure over the course of time we will get to know more about him and his experiences. If he has "dishonorable" intentions I am sure they will become apparent at some point and the Administrators can deal with it then, but at this point I don't see any need to throw him under a microscope.

Flying Crane You know I'm not one to throw anybody under the microscope, as if I could:erg:.

I would like to know the exact ciscumstances for these types of decussion, what is the under lining and what objective are we trying to meet here?

I wish I would know why he is so set against rank since he has his own system with the variation of four different arts?

He has stated he competed well if he had no rank they would not let him compete at those tournaments as you know?
Secondly if he does have his own system great maybe by bringing it to the forefront it lets people know about him a bit.
I'm hoping to gain knowledge from all you will share there knowledge with me and it would be welcome in the decussion.

I hope I have not offended any memeber here on MT and my question are more of couresaty than a poke at him or anybody else.
Terry

 

[Flying Crane]

Flying Crane You know I'm not one to throw anybody under the microscope, as if I could:erg:.

I would like to know the exact ciscumstances for these types of decussion, what is the under lining and what objective are we trying to meet here?

I wish I would know why he is so set against rank since he has his own system with the variation of four different arts?

He has stated he competed well if he had no rank they would not let him compete at those tournaments as you know?
Secondly if he does have his own system great maybe by bringing it to the forefront it lets people know about him a bit.
I'm hoping to gain knowledge from all you will share there knowledge with me and it would be welcome in the decussion.

I hope I have not offended any memeber here on MT and my question are more of couresaty than a poke at him or anybody else.
Terry

Terry, I think that your questions to Mr. Reynolds are respectful and reasonable and hopefully he will answer them. I am not trying to single anyone out here, just noticing a general trend in the attitude toward this person, who literally just began posting. I hope we don't end up ganging up on him already, as he may be someone who could be a positive presence here, that's all.

Personally, I didn't interpret his original post as a position set against ranking. I took it overall as a discussion about what rank is, where it comes from, it's historical context, and why it is or is not done. While I am sure Mr. Reynolds has a position of his own regarding this, I took the post more as an open discussion to consider the pros and cons, and perhaps encourage people to consider the topic more closely. Maybe some people will decide to change how they deal with ranking, but I am sure many many will not. That's OK. I think he is maybe just encouraging people to think for themselves about these issues, rather than just accept things because they were passed down. Anyone who chooses to continue to accept them, that's OK too. But it's also OK to think for yourself and make your own decisions if one wants to do things differently. On several prior threads I have certainly encouraged the same thing myself. I have probably annoyed some people in doing so, but that's how I feel so I'm gonna keep saying it when the discussion comes up.

Anyway, i'm not pointing fingers at you or anyone else specifically. Just wanted to say something before the thread maybe went down the wrong path.

 

[Kacey]

I asked him about his style to gain some additional insight into his background and experiences; he provided the background, but not the name of the style(s). I find his experience in particular styles relevant because it provides a historical context for his opinions - which I found to be well-thought out, but not supported in the context of particular arts. Different arts have different ranking systems, histories, and perspectives on belts and rank, and one's experiences with various styles influences one's own opinions - all of which I feel is significant in this context.

As I said before, I agree that rank inflation is rampant in some styles and many McDojo's - but I also know organizations/styles that don't suffer from that particular issue, or suffer from it considerably less than other places. I don't think it occurs in every art, organization, or class - but it is more common in some than others. I have seen it first hand in some places; I have seen it studiously avoided in others.

 

[Kasho]

Sorry I have not meant to be so secretive about myself or system but have just been trying to keep it on topic, which has now gone off track.

But as your post turns from the topic to instead questioning me, I do not take offence as I have a tuff hide and I am sure that was not your intent. As to my history, again I find your questioning of me amusing but am happy to supply this for you.

My highest rank is a 4th Dan in a 5 Dan system and was awarded in 2000 (you do the comparison math 5/10).

My current system is yes Kãsho martial arts. And I am only one of three that formed this system of philosophies. We are not karate nor kung-(gung-fu)-fu, judo or boxing, we are just martial practitioners. As founders we have no rank, who could rank us in our system? We do not claim those high Dan ranks like most Asians of the past. And we have been around for just thirty+ years less than Tae Kwon Do. One reason for not posting the system is it is hard for someone that has help to form a system to tastefully promote it themselves. If any arts founder of the past had the net and started talking about starting their own system and awarding some strange rank system they would have much the same abuse some are trying here.

As to what I now do, others opinions are insignificant and irrelevant. The battles over any little objections have been noted and filed many years ago.

Past instructors and arts:

Tae Kwon Do

Woon Kook Lee

Duk Sung Son

Young Sik Choi

Andy Anderson /Jim Ashby

Me
------------------
Ng family kung fu
(Primary style monkey)

Grandmaster Ng

Grandmaster John W.L. Ng

Wayne T Gist ----- His other instructor was Master Chai Soo Jin

Me
------------------------------
Tanaka ryu (Shinobi Ryu Tai jutsu)

Master Tanaka

Mathew K Brown

Me
------------------------------
American Free-style (more of a karate/Gung fu/Boxing mix)

Jim plain
Me
--------------------------------
David L Stance (Isshinryu /Judo/Shotokan)

Me
----------------------------------
Tang Soo Do
Dan Nolan
John Hancock - - His instructors in Korea I can’t recall their names.
Me
-------------------------------
Boxing (trained with)

James Anderson, Jody Bivens, (Golden glove 3 times) Aaron Railey (Golden glove 2 times)

Shotokan
Lester J Easley (worked out with him)
(Good will games gold metal winner in kata’s)


Kick boxing (trained with)

Alen LaBlanc, Jody Bivens, Aaron Railey (K1)

Submission
Aaron Railey (Biggest name person, UFU and Pride, multiple shoot fighting events)


I can’t remember all of the people that I have trained with or all of the seminars that I have attended over the years.

Well I must say that I am not totally disappointed with the topic turning to me, As some will tell you that is my favorite subject. lol.

Now I hope he can get back to the facts about history and rank and that people will stay on topic now that they have missed the messenger. They must talk about the subject with intelligent and historical fact. Can there be no reasonable discussion about the topic?

What are the good reasons for keeping rank at the 10 Dan level or should it be reduced?

Thoughts?

B. Reynolds

 

[terryl965]

Thank you so much for the info. I for one personaly thank you.
I hope I did not offend you and if I did I apologies.
Terry

 

[Kasho]

Thank you so much for the info. I for one personaly thank you.
I hope I did not offend you and if I did I apologies.
Terry

You did not!!

Now get back on topic! lol


BR

 

[Brandon Fisher]

Thank you I can see better what has sparked this thoughtful topic. I can see why you feel the way you do about people promoting when not deserved or promoting themselves. I completely agree people need to learn the history to fully understand the new. I for one am impressed with your background, you have done a lot of training and as I said before alot of research. Thank you for starting this thread!!!

 

[Carol]

More thanks for the clarification Mr. Reynolds...it is greatly appreciated. Your background is very interesting...very glad you brought it up, and I appreciate your good sense of humor. Glad you like sometimes talking about the subject of you because you seem like an interesting martial artist to get to know My apologies if I sounded disrespectful, sometimes it is difficult to understand what a person's intentions truly are over the internet :asian:

As far as rank at the 10 dan level...personally I don't think it is so muh the rank but the usage of rank. Within a 3 mile radius of my home, there are two individuals that claim a 10th dan ranking. Amongst the folks that I have conversed with, I've had the good fortune of exchanging e-mails with a few folks that have founded their own styles, yet they have elected to only stay with the ranks that they have earned from their instructors.

Personally I do think rank means something. I'm not at all accomplished in my own training but the idea of moving through the belts and breaking down a larger goal in to smaller bits and pieces is something that's very appealing to me. It helps keep me motivated. It is not so much a matter of ego for me because most of the people around me have no clue what the different colors mean, or even that their are different degrees of black. They just know its the thing I'm in to doing. Rank to me is not so much something to brag about but something to help strengthen my mental weaknesses.

But perhaps more important is the way I perceive rank in other folks. Rank is also something that I want to recognize in other people, especially those I admire. A gent like Master Terry is someone that has dedicated his life to the arts and has reached out to many students...including students that aren't his and students that don't train in his art. It is seeing a gent like him where I think he is deserving of every stitch of stripes (literally or figuratively) on his belt. He's someone I look up to even though I have never had the chance to shake his hand in person.

I guess I'd rather not see the dan system done away with...I'd rather see more awareness raised as to how the system works and how it is exploited. Whether it is a 5 dan system like yours sir, or a 10 dan system or a 12 dan system or a 15 dan system (bujinkan taijutsu), its not something that I want to see banned simply because some less-than-well-intended folks are using it improperly. I'd rather see the corrective focus spent on ways to counterbalance the less-than-well-intended practitioners.

Just my thoughts :asian:

 

[Haze]

First off Kasho I feel knowing your style and rank is important to this converstation, I believe you have been training for 35 years, not to sound mean or anything, but that could be my own style of coach potatoe od beer drikers of america. When decussing rank and what is or is not, I do not wish to talk to a white belt for 30 years.
I know a man that has been in college for thirty years but yet has not Master one subject so why would I talk to him about being a CPA if he does not have the concept to stay long enough to understand what a CPA raelly is?
Terry

He said he has been a head instructor for 26 years. You can allways check the profile and some info can be tracked down. I know what his style is and his rank. He has paid his dues.

 

[terryl965]

He said he has been a head instructor for 26 years. You can allways check the profile and some info can be tracked down. I know what his style is and his rank. He has paid his dues.

First Dave, I did and it really did not say secondly Me and Kasho have put to rest that issue if you read the entire thread. No one question weather he paid his due, so have I over forty year my good man. Been there and done that as well.
Terry

 

[terryl965]

You did not!!

Now get back on topic! lol


BR

Kasho back to topic I for one believe there are way to many 10 th degree BB and way to many self promoting ones as well.Each style should have one GM to uphold it tradition not 500,000 of them.
Also you mention about someone self promoting themself to 10th dan, I for one say great let them self promote themself or have some one sign off on them to make them legit in there eyes.

See when people do that they make people like you and me and the ones that have been doing this for over 35+ years seem to good to be true.
I for one am impress with people that have no value for rank, that just want to train everyday and make the best of there time here.

he is a little tidbit on me, I personally did not test for over 18 years, never really saw the benfits of becoming a 4th in TKD until my sons started to train under someone that was a fake Master, all that 4th means to me is being able to get a Kukkiwon certificate for my students without having all thos ehigh fee's and guidelines.

In the western culture to much is put on a certain title or name and it has tickle down to other cultures as well, too sad in my eyes.

What do you believe should be done with this tend that has been laid out for the last thirty years in MA?

What can we as MA do to maintain the dignity that once was?

Is there hope over the next sunrise or our we domed by are own demise?

Can one bring back, what one has lost?

These are the question that need to be answered by all styles and Martial Artist a like.
Terry

 

[Brother John]

Great first post!!!!!!!!
Welcome...

Here's where I disagree with what you are saying about "American" martial arts:
In the Orient...when an art would travel from one country or province to another....it would change.
BUT: This isn't the orient. This is America. We take things in that originate in other countries and make it our own. We keep what works well for our standards and our ideals, and change what we want too.
IF we choose to call our ranks (OR: Even USE ranks at all for that matter) by terms that came from other countries....then we are no more wrong for that than in calling Pizza "Itallian" or a Chimichanga "Mexican". We cut our own definitions and set our own parameters...and use OLD terms or New ones.

In the end, it's a moot point. the Issue in martial arts isn't rank.
That's wall-paper, not the house.

Your Brother
John
PS: Interesting topic, thank you.

 

[Last Fearner]

I don't have much more to say on this topic at this time, but I did want to clarify that when I asked Kasho what was his rank, it was an attempt at rhetorical irony ~ "humor." Since he started a thread that questioned the use of rank, I thought it would be funny to respond by asking him what his rank is! :lol:

Actually, I was not seeking a background check, but now that Kasho has provided some, I find it interesting. Although I could have seen that done in another thread. It would have made for a good introductory post by Kasho, but to each their own.

On the topic:
Other than what I said in my earlier post, I agree with many points that Kasho, and others have made. I have seen many problems and abuses with the ranking system, and to some extent, it can affect the business process with customers who do not understand, and the relationship with other Martial Artist who combat over these issues.

I have seen people with little experience, in my neck of the woods, go from being a degree or two lower than mine, to out-ranking me in a couple of years. I have known many in my area, who press their organizations for promotions, just so they can "out-rank" me, and advertise that they are the highest rank in the area. In the long run, it has little effect on customers who compare shop, because I can always show that I was a Black Belt teacher when they were just starting as a white belt.

In fact, I have one local fella who advertised as a 6th Dan before I got my 6th. Interesting thing is, while I was a 5th, he went from 4th, to 5th, to 6th in a very short time. More interesting is the 4th Dan lady who was his instructor (before he took over her school) was a student of mine when she started as a white belt, and I was a 2nd Dan back in 1980. I have often been offered rank promotions to switch organizations in the past, but that is not what I am about.

As for the "founders" of arts or systems years ago, and their use of ranks such as 10th Dan, I don't believe most of them took that rank from day one, but after they built an organization of many Masters, they graduated into being a grandmaster. The rank does not change who they are, but it might reflect where they came from, and what they have been through. I respect those of the past who fought on the battlefield, and used their skills to survive and teach others. They were truly Grandmasters after a lifetime of living what they taught. They are the ones who could rightfully assume the rank of 10th Dan and decide who is to be the next 9th Dan.

What I have a problem with (if any) is those modern day wannabe masters who start their own schools, under a new name, just so they can claim the title of "founder" of their own system, and be promoted to 10th Dan without ever having so much as fought over a seat on the subway! lol They take what is already in existence, repackage it, rename it, and call themselves the Grandpuba 20th Degree.

My opinion is that many modern day Martial Artists prefer to "do away with ranks" because they don't want to go through what it takes to legitimately earn the rank from the true Grandmasters who deserve their titles. Some create systems without rank, because they don't want to be called for fabricating a phony rank, and don't want to be compared to others who actually have earned the degrees. It's like starting your own university and saying we don't have Associate, Bachelor, Master, or Doctorate's because we think it does not prove you have learned anything, and it just feeds into egos.

It's not how long you have been studying something, but really what you have learned. You can spend 20 or 30 years at a fly-by-night university such as this, but will you benefit the same as an accredited university?

If so, then forget what I said.

Well, I guess I had more to say on the topic than I thought ~ sorry!

CM D. J. Eisenhart
____________________
Last Fearner

 

[Brandon Fisher]

I feel 10th dan should reflect something you have done that has been outstanding. I have mayself promoted one person to 4th dan and I feel that it was pushed to to be done and wasn't totally deserved. But I was pushed by a man who had actually skipped 9th dan after having been a 8th dan for 2 years. This man accepted being announced has a 10th dan at a banquet as a promotion and never had any paper work. He went to a friend who had a large MA organization and asked for the paper work. Mind you this is 2 separate organizations. Neither organization took acception and allowed it.

So that bring me to a question for everyone. I have seen several long time black belts jump dan grades promoted by their own students. Their own students who none were over 3rd dan. Each of these people went from 5th dan to 7th dan and one went from 3rd dan to 8th dan (promoted by my old instructor) then jumped 9th dan to 10th dan in a matter of 2 to 3 years. This man actually takes a liking to teenage girls my step cousin in law was one of them and another was pointed out to us by a retired police detective. Does this kind of man deserve a 10th dan.

Each of these men had 30 years or more in the martial arts. How does everyone feel about this? Please keep in mind there was no yudanshakai in place to govern this rank advancement. Does anyone feel that this practice is wrong?

I know my feeling on it which I will share once others share their thoughts.

 

[Haze]

First Dave, I did and it really did not say secondly Me and Kasho have put to rest that issue if you read the entire thread. No one question weather he paid his due, so have I over forty year my good man. Been there and done that as well.
Terry

My appologies, I must have skipped some of the thread. Meant no offense.