What is the point of a tag in a full-contact fight?

[oftheherd1]

My experience is that martial artists with experience in fighting/sparring full contact can switch to sparring with light/touch contact in a realistic way. Distancing and body mechanics are correct, they can just hold back on the power. People who have only ever sparred light/no-contact have a tendency to get the range wrong. If you throw a fully extended punch at me and it comes up 1/4" short, that's not a demonstration of control, that's just you missing.

Curious. Why do you think people can dial power back, but not dial it up?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I think one can train oneself to know the difference between sparring where one stops before actually striking, and a real fight where one applies the strike or kick with full power.

I agree. But you need to have done both in order to train yourself that.

 

[wab25]

Curious. Why do you think people can dial power back, but not dial it up?

You can dial it up. But, there is only one way to do that... you have to hit people... hard.

If you have never hit people hard, who are trying to hit you hard... I don't believe you can fully understand the game of tag, in a martial context. When you have that full contact experience, you can get a lot more things out of the game of tag. Without the full contact experience, there are things you won't get out of the tag game and things you won't ever get... because the only way to get them is to go full contact.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You can dial it up. But, there is only one way to do that... you have to hit people... hard.

You can still hit your opponent hard without hurting him badly. In sparring, you can punch on your opponent's shoulder (same distance as his head) with full power.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Curious. Why do you think people can dial power back, but not dial it up?

I think there are two factors.

The first is psychological - just getting comfortable with the feeling of actually making contact and hitting someone. (And conversely, being comfortable with getting close enough that they can hit you for real in return.)

The second is more technical - understanding proper distance. If you practice "control" by moving your feet so that your full power, fully extended punch comes up short of contact then you never learn to achieve the correct range. This also changes timing, angles, and effective counters.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think Tony has the key right here:


I have trained with far to many "experienced martial artists" who can't hit me. Sure, they can score points all day long, nothing I can do to stop that. They move better, they move faster, their timing is excellent, they can set me up for whatever scoring technique they want... but I must be a Jedi when it comes to contact though. Those same individuals will pull their attacks short of delivering powerful contact by reflex. They have a very hard time when we switch the rules to medium level of contact. (no one wants a concussion, buts lets give and take some pop...) Yes they technically could have made contact, and dropped me... but getting them to make that contact is another story.

I have found that guys that have trained full to medium contact have very little issue hitting me, and making significant contact. They can dial it back, and still be in the right position, or know when they are not. They can also dial it up. Its the folks that have never trained with medium to hard contact that seem to have a mental barrier to actually hitting someone else. That can be very hard for a person to overcome.

I actually worry about this in my own training. I spend so much time playing tag with relative beginners (while teaching), and rarely get to spar with much contact. I suspect I’m losing some of my distancing judgment over time.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You can still hit your opponent hard without hurting him badly. In sparring, you can punch on your opponent's shoulder (same distance as his head) with full power.

The shoulder is neither the same distance as the head, nor guarded the same way.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I actually worry about this in my own training. I spend so much time playing tag with relative beginners (while teaching), and rarely get to spar with much contact. I suspect I’m losing some of my distancing judgment over time.

I haven't done any nonweapon contact sparring in probably two years. I'm certain I've lost my distancing judgment over time.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think there are two factors.

The first is psychological - just getting comfortable with the feeling of actually making contact and hitting someone. (And conversely, being comfortable with getting close enough that they can hit you for real in return.)

The second is more technical - understanding proper distance. If you practice "control" by moving your feet so that your full power, fully extended punch comes up short of contact then you never learn to achieve the correct range. This also changes timing, angles, and effective counters.

This second is pretty easy to spot in folks who haven’t sparred with much contact. If they’re used to no-contact sparring (barely tapping, at most), you can see it from across the room.

 

[dvcochran]

I actually worry about this in my own training. I spend so much time playing tag with relative beginners (while teaching), and rarely get to spar with much contact. I suspect I’m losing some of my distancing judgment over time.

Not so much any more but I used to really worry about the same thing. Since competitive sparring has been off the table for some time now, I would try to augment by using full power on pad drills and full speed, full extension with light(er) contact in sparring. I think it works okay but there is a mental component that is still missing IMHO.

 

[drop bear]

My experience is that martial artists with experience in fighting/sparring full contact can switch to sparring with light/touch contact in a realistic way. Distancing and body mechanics are correct, they can just hold back on the power. People who have only ever sparred light/no-contact have a tendency to get the range wrong. If you throw a fully extended punch at me and it comes up 1/4" short, that's not a demonstration of control, that's just you missing.

I am not sure if I have ever sparred a legitimate non contact guy.

The kuokashin no head contact guys suffer a bit. As, well I have topically jabbed them to death. And they hate that.

But they also don't do head movement so it is basically free hits.

 

[drop bear]

Curious. Why do you think people can dial power back, but not dial it up?

It would be interesting to see what people consider dialed up though as well. Medium contact sparring shouldn't really be an indicator if no contact is an argument to train full contact.

But all the really good fighters I know will trade with hard sparring at some point. It is a method that consistently produces results.

And I have done it and am a better tougher fighter because of it.

So non contact might work. It might not I think for the most part unless we can see evidence for it we don't know.

Vs what we can see evidence for.

And so if I was going to expect someone to engage in a full contact fight I would have them engage in full contact fighting before hand. Otherwise I would feel like I am being irresponsible.

 

[drop bear]

This second is pretty easy to spot in folks who haven’t sparred with much contact. If they’re used to no-contact sparring (barely tapping, at most), you can see it from across the room.

See how story based argument just go weird by the way?

Soon you will get. "Nah no contact guys I see totally clean house"

And you will quite simply be at an impasse.

 

[oftheherd1]

I think there are two factors.

The first is psychological - just getting comfortable with the feeling of actually making contact and hitting someone. (And conversely, being comfortable with getting close enough that they can hit you for real in return.)

The second is more technical - understanding proper distance. If you practice "control" by moving your feet so that your full power, fully extended punch comes up short of contact then you never learn to achieve the correct range. This also changes timing, angles, and effective counters.

If you are sparring where there is none, or very, very light contact, you should not have to worry about a return strike. I always thought if you hit an opponent in a real fight, in a vulnerable area, you should not have to worry about a return strike, or could have a block ready for it. The return strike in sparring then is simply instructional.

We were taught that the control came in controlling the strike or kick. That is where the control of the strike or kick came in, not in doing an incorrect strike or kick.

 

[wab25]

If you are sparring where there is none, or very, very light contact, you should not have to worry about a return strike. I always thought if you hit an opponent in a real fight, in a vulnerable area, you should not have to worry about a return strike, or could have a block ready for it. The return strike in sparring then is simply instructional.

In boxing, you can watch the new guys. Some guys will have these great records, 12-0 with 12 KOs. But you look at who they fought... guys with losing records, and no chins. They get in the ring with a guy that can take a shot and things change. They hit this new guy, with the same shot that dropped everyone else, and not only is the other guy smiling, he is smiling because he just nailed you and your knees are about to go...

What works to drop one guy, won't necessarily work on the next guy. You need to be ready for that return strike... it my give you a lot of very quick instruction. (some of which you may have to see on video or have someone tell you about...)

They even have a strategy in boxing "catch and shoot" where you wait for the guy to hit you, then nail him harder with your return shot. If the other guy has a very tight defense and is a little lazy returning his guard or gets himself out of position when he throws, you wait for the impact and punch him when he is open and not expecting the hit.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It would be interesting to see what people consider dialed up though as well. Medium contact sparring shouldn't really be an indicator if no contact is an argument to train full contact.

But all the really good fighters I know will trade with hard sparring at some point. It is a method that consistently produces results.

And I have done it and am a better tougher fighter because of it.

So non contact might work. It might not I think for the most part unless we can see evidence for it we don't know.

Vs what we can see evidence for.

And so if I was going to expect someone to engage in a full contact fight I would have them engage in full contact fighting before hand. Otherwise I would feel like I am being irresponsible.

I think light contact alone can work. I'm just not sure I'd trust it to on any given person. Even moderate contact - even in drills and such - would give immediate feedback on targeting, technique (how the strike lands, so including timing), and distance that are all mostly missing in a simulated strike.

I think intermediate students and up should be encouraged to go kinda hard from time to time. It does toughen, removes some of the fear of getting hit, and gives useful feedback to the striker. I'll never require it, but I encourage it, where my instructor did not.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

See how story based argument just go weird by the way?

Soon you will get. "Nah no contact guys I see totally clean house"

And you will quite simply be at an impasse.

Yeah. Which is why - as I've said before EVERY TIME we've had this discussion - anecdotal evidence should be a jumping-off point, not your final evidence. It gives you a hint what to look at, given variables you can't predict (and likely won't see by accident) in the dojo.

But you keep acting like I've ever said you should take someone's story and use it as the basis for your training model, without anything else to back it.

 

[marques]

A few I remember now:
-To test oponents' reactions, speed, timing;
-If distance is wrong, sometimes better a tag than compromising balance;
-To create openings, for other attacks;
-To keep opponent busy, at the expense of little energy, sort of defensive attack;
-To show up to jury and public at a safer distance, for points or entertainment;
-To give false confidence to the opponent, making a heavy strike easier to land;
-To put opponent under pressure, making him tired and forcing errors.
-To blind the opponent, momentaneously or 1-2 min (jab)...

 

[drop bear]

But you keep acting like I've ever said you should take someone's story and use it as the basis for your training model, without anything else to back it.

You have said that numerous times.

 

[drop bear]

I think light contact alone can work. I'm just not sure I'd trust it to on any given person. Even moderate contact - even in drills and such - would give immediate feedback on targeting, technique (how the strike lands, so including timing), and distance that are all mostly missing in a simulated strike.

I think intermediate students and up should be encouraged to go kinda hard from time to time. It does toughen, removes some of the fear of getting hit, and gives useful feedback to the striker. I'll never require it, but I encourage it, where my instructor did not.

It would be easy to test. Otherwise the whole discussion is a complete hypothetical.

And then we are using that unknown to make logical conclusions which we just can't do. The counter argument is doing kind of the same thing.

The argument is that non contact is sparring heavy contact just from further away. So the test would be to throw the gloves on and give them three minutes and see if it has helped them.

Here we go.
Myths about non-contact sparring - Part 1

It wouldn't even be if they won but if they lost their composure basically.

But of course nobody is going to do that so.....