What is the point of a tag in a full-contact fight?

[drop bear]

Yeah. Which is why - as I've said before EVERY TIME we've had this discussion - anecdotal evidence should be a jumping-off point, not your final evidence. It gives you a hint what to look at, given variables you can't predict (and likely won't see by accident) in the dojo.

We are not having an anecdotal conversation. We are having a hypothetical one. We have literally moved in to a discussion on a subject people have heard about but haven't done.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You have said that numerous times.

Nope. Not once in my entire life.

But keep believing what you like. Just know your bias severely limits your ability to help. Severely.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It would be easy to test. Otherwise the whole discussion is a complete hypothetical.

And then we are using that unknown to make logical conclusions which we just can't do. The counter argument is doing kind of the same thing.

The argument is that non contact is sparring heavy contact just from further away. So the test would be to throw the gloves on and give them three minutes and see if it has helped them.

Here we go.
Myths about non-contact sparring - Part 1

It wouldn't even be if they won but if they lost their composure basically.

But of course nobody is going to do that so.....

Problem is, once you start doing that, you can’t use that person for future testing of the hypothesis, because now they’ve had that feedback. That’s part of the reliability issue.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

We are not having an anecdotal conversation. We are having a hypothetical one. We have literally moved in to a discussion on a subject people have heard about but haven't done.

Hypotheticals aren’t anything like anecdotal evidence (story-based).

 

[skribs]

I think light contact alone can work. I'm just not sure I'd trust it to on any given person. Even moderate contact - even in drills and such - would give immediate feedback on targeting, technique (how the strike lands, so including timing), and distance that are all mostly missing in a simulated strike.

I think intermediate students and up should be encouraged to go kinda hard from time to time. It does toughen, removes some of the fear of getting hit, and gives useful feedback to the striker. I'll never require it, but I encourage it, where my instructor did not.

And I think striking and grappling are different in that you can go a lot harder in grappling without increased risk, compared with striking.

 

[JowGaWolf]

So if a fighter can go up against someone who has weak punches and not bother protecting himself from them, why does he need to protect himself from a jab? Why couldn't he ignore the jab like he could against someone with weak punches all around?

I'm late to this game on this one. The jab can range in power and in my opinion I think that many people have the assumption that it is a weak punch. While it's not the most powerful punch, is should not be trained as a weak punch.

KO with Jab

Watch the facial expressions from some of these jabs

Tyson getting some KO's with a Jab. FYI not all are jabs, but there are some. Skip past all of the Martial arts stuff at the beginning

Like most strikes, they work based on how you train them. If you only train a jab to be fast and not powerful then that's all you are going to get out of it. I think when it comes to MMA guys walking through a TMA guy's jab, they do so knowing that the TMA guy really hasn't done proper fighting training and conditioning. I wouldn't recommend trying to walk through a jab of someone who fights power hand forward. The chances are, that anything coming off that lead hand is going hurt.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And I think striking and grappling are different in that you can go a lot harder in grappling without increased risk, compared with striking.

Agreed. And you can (in many cases - not all) even start a throw with something like full power, and still cushion their fall at the end, so you get to practice throwing with power, without them hitting as hard. WIth stand-up grappling, the biggest concerns when going hard are typically knees and how they land. The latter is only a major concern really on some throws (like drop seoi nage), as others (like hip throw) lend themselves to more controllable falls.

And you can grapple pretty hard just for position, never really going with a throw/takedown. Folks may tumble, but with less (not "no", of course) risk of significant injury. Which translates to what ground grappling is like, more or less.

 

[drop bear]

Hypotheticals aren’t anything like anecdotal evidence (story-based).

Yeah hypotheticals are a story someone is creating rather than an anecdote which is a story someone might have experienced.

I have told this story before.
A group of martial artists are standing around a man holding a pen. And discussing what would happen if he let go. And some thought the pen would stay there or fly up or drop or just disappear. And although everyone had very clever arguments nobody could agree.

So the guy holding the pen put it away and said.

"I guess there is no way to know"

 

[drop bear]

Nope. Not once in my entire life.

But keep believing what you like. Just know your bias severely limits your ability to help. Severely.

Yours serverly limits your ability to receive it.

 

[drop bear]

Problem is, once you start doing that, you can’t use that person for future testing of the hypothesis, because now they’ve had that feedback. That’s part of the reliability issue.

Well then I guess there is no way to know one way or the other.

 

[drop bear]

I am super jabsy when I spar.

I am also left handed though.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well then I guess there is no way to know one way or the other.

Agreed. I don't think there's a way to know definitively if contactless or very light work can develop good striking. That's why I said it the way I did. I don't think it consistently does, but I think it can if done right. I'm not sure what "right" is, though. Wouldn't want to depend upon that.

 

[Buka]

Easier to do damage with a jab as a heavyweight, easier reach, too. Holmes had a great jab...I just don't like the guy and never will.

But the best jabs I ever saw were from Hagler, Hearns and Sugar Ray Robinson. Damn, could they jab.
Leonard was good, too.

 

[Yokozuna514]

Very interesting discussion since the last time I look at this thread. What I have come to understand when training at different power levels is, it is easier to dial it down than it is to dial it up. As someone said, the distancing is pretty much the same if you are used to going 'hard' as it is when you are going 'light'. I also think it is important to go 'hard' from time to time if you are in a MA that requires you to hit with force periodically. If you never hit someone with full power, you will never understand proper balancing, distance and commitment principles. That being said, it is difficult to spar at medium to full power all the time. The risk of injury goes up dramatically with the power used and I am not talking about just the injury you would cause your sparring partner but to yourself as well.

Finding suitable sparring partners that can take a hit and keep their composure is also quite important. Anyone that spars 'hard' knows exactly how quickly a match can go from 'light' to 'hard' contact regardless of the instructions given at the beginning of the session. All it takes is for someone to land a blow a touch harder than was expected and the brinkmanship begins. Generally the more experienced your opponent coupled with their desire to train as close to the limit without injuring either party is the best case scenario. Consider yourself fortunate if you have a few people that you can do this with in place where you train because you will begin to find there is a lot more to winning a fight than just power, speed and distancing.

In as far as Kyokushin guys getting jabbed in the face repeatedly without changing their guard to protect their head........they deserve to be hit. That is just dumb to let your opponent continue to hit you in the face without responding and changing the guard position. It's not like we don't train to get mae geri's to the face. A stiff jab to the chin can suck but a front kick the chin is going to make you eat with a straw.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I also think it is important to go 'hard' from time to time if you are in a MA that requires you to hit with force periodically. If you never hit someone with full power, you will never understand proper balancing, distance and commitment principles. That being said, it is difficult to spar at medium to full power all the time. The risk of injury goes up dramatically with the power used and I am not talking about just the injury you would cause your sparring partner but to yourself as well.

Yeah, I think the ideal for most of us is to spar hard contact just often enough to be psychologically conditioned for it and to instill proper timing, distancing, and body mechanics. The rest of the time should be light to moderate contact. Not only does this reduce injury and increase longevity, it also allows you to experiment with techniques and tactics you haven't mastered yet without the worry of getting beat up too badly.

 

[drop bear]

In as far as Kyokushin guys getting jabbed in the face repeatedly without changing their guard to protect their head........they deserve to be hit. That is just dumb to let your opponent continue to hit you in the face without responding and changing the guard position. It's not like we don't train to get mae geri's to the face. A stiff jab to the chin can suck but a front kick the chin is going to make you eat with a straw.

There is a lot more to face punching than having your guard up.

 

[Buka]

Yeah, I think the ideal for most of us is to spar hard contact just often enough to be psychologically conditioned for it and to instill proper timing, distancing, and body mechanics. The rest of the time should be light to moderate contact. Not only does this reduce injury and increase longevity, it also allows you to experiment with techniques and tactics you haven't mastered yet without the worry of getting beat up too badly.

I wholeheartedly agree. Once you get to a certain point, hard contact isn't necessary to keep your edge. Once you've experienced it, trained it and understand it, you put it away in your tool kit.

Besides, there's always going to be the under-belts that you're teaching that you give two warnings to of "hey, you're going too hard, ease up, please". Then they forget three minutes later and out comes your tool kit. WHAP, POP....then they go "okay, boss, gotcha" Then you give them a hand up and continue.

Gotta' love young guys.

 

[Yokozuna514]

There is a lot more to face punching than having your guard up.

Ha, ha, that is true but I can only assume you mentioned Kyokushin guys as we typically do not practice punches to the head. If those guys you faced raised their guard and still got owned with a jab, they need to change the way they train.

 

[Buka]

I've trained with several Kyokushin guys over the years. We all hit each other in the face, they didn't seem any less used to it than we did. Maybe because it was my school, but they loved the contact.

 

[drop bear]

Ha, ha, that is true but I can only assume you mentioned Kyokushin guys as we typically do not practice punches to the head. If those guys you faced raised their guard and still got owned with a jab, they need to change the way they train.

It changes your ability to sit a certain ranges and angles and to do stuff.

A lot of kuokashin is inside the pocket and if I punch you in the face and run away you never have time to set up anything.