Aikido.. The reality?

[Hanzou]

No Hanzou, that's called Judo. Yeah yeah

Uh no. The Guillotine choke for example is illegal move in Judo and not taught.

 

[Steve]

No Hanzou, that's called Judo.

And I think that's about it for this guy.

 

[Shatteredzen]

Uh no. The Guillotine choke for example is illegal move in Judo and not taught.

Mae Hadaka Jime you mean? No sorry, try again.

 

[Shatteredzen]

And I think that's about it for this guy.

If you get to just wholesale make stuff up and add it to your style then cool, I get to add Judo to Aikido too.

 

[Hanzou]

You are just re-hashing at this point, no one here is saying that Aikido schools should be advertising like that. No martial arts school can claim to produce students that can do those things, its all going to amount to what the individual is capable of. I'm confused as to where you are trying to go with this other than circles, since you are simply arguing with yourself at this point.

Jowga is saying that an Aikidoka wouldn't get involved in a multiple opponent situation, which would seem rather bizarre considering that Aikido advertises itself as a martial art that can EFFECTIVELY deal with multiple attackers. Why would an Aikidoka shy away from a multiple attacker situation if they believe that they've been trained to deal with exactly that situation?

 

[Shatteredzen]

Jowga is saying that an Aikidoka wouldn't get involved in a multiple opponent situation, which would seem rather bizarre considering that Aikido advertises itself as a martial art that can EFFECTIVELY deal with multiple attackers. Why would an Aikidoka shy away from a multiple attacker situation if they believe that they've been trained to deal with exactly that situation?

What is Aikido? | Aikikai Foundation

Official Home Page of Aikikai Public-Interest Incorporated Foundation Hombu Dojo. What is Aikido, Introduction to Aikido, History of Aikido, Features of Aikido, News and Activities of Aikikai Foundation. Aikido Dojo across the country, Class, Dojo Search, Avtivities and Information, List of...

www.aikikai.or.jp

Show me where it advertises that on the Aikikai website or its literature.

 

[Hanzou]

Mae Hadaka Jime you mean? No sorry, try again.

I would love for you to show an example of a Judoka performing a standing guillotine.

 

[Hanzou]

What is Aikido? | Aikikai Foundation

Official Home Page of Aikikai Public-Interest Incorporated Foundation Hombu Dojo. What is Aikido, Introduction to Aikido, History of Aikido, Features of Aikido, News and Activities of Aikikai Foundation. Aikido Dojo across the country, Class, Dojo Search, Avtivities and Information, List of...

www.aikikai.or.jp

Show me where it advertises that on the Aikikai website or its literature.

How is that relevant if there are Aikido schools around the world that state that Aikido is effective against multiple attackers?

 

[Shatteredzen]

I would love for you to show an example of a Judoka performing a standing guillotine.

The chokes can be applied standing, its the same choke. You don't see a guillotine choke in Judo competition because its an illegal move, that doesn't change that its a Judo move that was incorporated into BJJ. Sorry, try again.

 

[Hanzou]

The chokes can be applied standing, its the same choke. You don't see a guillotine choke in Judo competition because its an illegal move, that doesn't change that its a Judo move that was incorporated into BJJ. Sorry, try again.

Except Judoka don't train those chokes because they are illegal. Techniques that become illegal in Judo fall into disuse because they can't be practiced in randori either, so over time they become obsolete.

If you doubt this, just look at the current (nonexistent) state of Judo leglocks.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Uh no. The Guillotine choke for example is illegal move in Judo and not taught.

Are you saying that the reverse head lock is not taught in Judo? How about head lock?

 

[Shatteredzen]

How is that relevant if there are Aikido schools around the world that state that Aikido is effective against multiple attackers?

Because that's the Hombu Dojo, not some McDojo in the US, but here we go again with this silly red herring.

 

[Shatteredzen]

Except Judoka don't train those chokes because they are illegal. Techniques that become illegal in Judo fall into disuse because they can't be practiced in randori either, so over time they become obsolete.

If you doubt this, just look at the current (nonexistent) state of Judo leglocks.

Oh so when the Judo moves become illegal they become BJJ techniques?

 

[Hanzou]

Because that's the Hombu Dojo, not some McDojo in the US, but here we go again with this silly red herring.

Except the vast majority of Aikido practitioners aren't attending the Hombu in Japan, they're attending the Aikido dojo in the strip mall.

Interesting that you would consider any Aikido school advertising that it is effective against multiple attackers to be a "mcdojo", since that would incorporate a LOT of Aikido schools in the US and other countries.

Oh so when the Judo moves become illegal they become BJJ techniques?

Bjj comes from Judo, so obviously many Bjj techniques have their roots in its parent art. The difference is that Bjj never had their techniques neutered by a crushing rules system that didn't want to get Judo confused with wrestling, and Kano's personal distaste for certain aspects of newaza/grappling. Thus, Bjj has been allowed to grow and flourish pretty much unabated, while Judo has lost multiple effective techniques over the years. Leg locks being a pretty major example.

 

[Shatteredzen]

Except the vast majority of Aikido practitioners aren't attending the Hombu in Japan, they're attending the Aikido dojo in the strip mall.

Interesting that you would consider any Aikido school advertising that it is effective against multiple attackers to be a "mcdojo", since that would incorporate a LOT of Aikido schools in the US and other countries.

I've already stated my opinion on the majority of Aikido schools, like any martial arts school claiming to train people to be effective against multiple opponents, the style would not matter. We are talking about Aikido as a system, not the lousy state of available schools, that's also already been discussed. You are attempting to argue absolutes against a system based on bad behavior from satellite schools. Aikido does teach techniques to use against multiple opponents, that is not the same thing as guaranteeing effectiveness. Aikido as a system does not claim anything other than physical and spiritual development. I can find bad schools in every discipline, that has nothing to do with the overall usefulness or value of the parent system.

 

[Shatteredzen]

Except the vast majority of Aikido practitioners aren't attending the Hombu in Japan, they're attending the Aikido dojo in the strip mall.

Interesting that you would consider any Aikido school advertising that it is effective against multiple attackers to be a "mcdojo", since that would incorporate a LOT of Aikido schools in the US and other countries.




Bjj comes from Judo, so obviously many Bjj techniques have their roots in its parent art. The difference is that Bjj never had their techniques neutered by a crushing rules system that didn't want to get Judo confused with wrestling, and Kano's personal distaste for certain aspects of newaza/grappling. Thus, Bjj has been allowed to grow and flourish pretty much unabated, while Judo has lost multiple effective techniques over the years. Leg locks being a pretty major example.

BJJ has its own techniques, just because it commonly incorporates Judo techniques or wrestling techniques does not make them part of BJJ. If you get to claim Judo for BJJ then the same can be said for Aikido, since they are both derivative arts from Judo and Aikido was originally intended to be taught to dan level Judoka.

 

[Hanzou]

I've already stated my opinion on the majority of Aikido schools, like any martial arts school claiming to train people to be effective against multiple opponents, the style would not matter. We are talking about Aikido as a system, not the lousy state of available schools, that's also already been discussed. You are attempting to argue absolutes against a system based on bad behavior from satellite schools. Aikido does teach techniques to use against multiple opponents, that is not the same thing as guaranteeing effectiveness. Aikido as a system does not claim anything other than physical and spiritual development. I can find bad schools in every discipline, that has nothing to do with the overall usefulness or value of the parent system.

Wouldn't a huge amount of Aikido schools being "mcdojos" (your classification, not mine) be an indictment on the state of Aikido as a system?

BJJ has its own techniques, just because it commonly incorporates Judo techniques or wrestling techniques does not make them part of BJJ. If you get to claim Judo for BJJ then the same can be said for Aikido, since they are both derivative arts from Judo and Aikido was originally intended to be taught to dan level Judoka.

The guillotine choke has been in Bjj probably since it's inception, and Bjj practitioners frankly know the choke far better than Judoka do, so how would that choke not be part of Bjj?

Back to the point; If you see someone at a bar choking someone out with a standing guillotine, they learned that technique from a Bjj gym, not a Judo dojo. Judo doesn't teach that move, but Bjj does.

 

[Shatteredzen]

Wouldn't a huge amount of Aikido schools being "mcdojos" (your classification, not mine) be an indictment on the state of Aikido as a system?

Exactly who is arguing with you about the state of the Aikido community being poor? The state of the community is not analogous with the overall value or worth of the system.

 

[Hanzou]

Are you saying that the reverse head lock is not taught in Judo? How about head lock?

https://www.bilibili.com/video/av200987573/

That particular throw would more than likely be illegal in Judo.

 

[Shatteredzen]

The guillotine choke has been in Bjj probably since it's inception, and Bjj practitioners frankly know the choke far better than Judoka do, so how would that choke not be part of Bjj?

Back to the point; If you see someone at a bar choking someone out with a standing guillotine, they learned that technique from a Bjj gym, not a Judo dojo. Judo doesn't teach that move, but Bjj does.

Lol, I learned it from the guy who taught me Aikido, most certainly not in a BJJ gym.