Aikido.. The reality?

[Shatteredzen]

It is about as easy to hit a guy who is tied up dealing with another guy as it is to hit someone on the ground.

You can't suggest a method is bad without having a better method.

The better method is stay on your feet and move around.

 

[Shatteredzen]

Do you know the meaning of word "single" in "single attacker" phrase? I am aware of bjj (especially sport oriented) limitations. But bjj training methodology and constant close contact to MMA results in production of better fighters than aikido methodology and no contact to any kind of violence.

It produces skills that are good for making well rounded fighters because there is a chance that any given conflict will end up going to the ground. By itself there is no striking and no standing techniques, making it about as useful on its own as a wet paper bag anywhere outside of a sporting competition. I may or may not dodge a sucker punch, you for sure will take a boot straight in the mouth while you wrestle with someone on the ground. If all you have in your bag of tricks is some BJJ classes, you for sure are better off with only some mild Aikido interpretive dance skills and a plan to run to your car for practical self defense.

 

[Steve]

I'm the guy on the sideline looking for something that floats or something I can use to help that person. Be it a near by boat on the lake a floatation device depending on my reasons for being at the lake. Am I hiking or am I'm in the water as well with my family.

will I still call the police? Yes. Will swim out to the child? Only if I can find something to assist me in my efforts to flt. Or in the efforts to help child float. It also depends on where in the lake the child is. The closer to land the better. Way out in middle of a lake, I'm not going to make it. I don't consider myself a strong swimmer so going out there to drown as well is not something I'm going to do. Just because it's a lake doesn't mean swimming out to someone is going to be feasible. That's why they tell people to wear there life vests. That's just reality. People don't have to like that about me. It's my life and I won't easily throw it away. I definitely won't throw it away just because someone thinks my character is flawed.

no one's said that your character is flawed. That's another straw man (and a false equivalence). What people have said is that trying to help people is generally considered a positive character trait. You suggested that it's not, and that the BJJ guy should have called the cops and walked away. You further suggested that this is what an Aikidoka would likely have done.

The rest of your post... just please stop.

 

[Steve]

No one's argument has morphed, there has been a concerted effort to re-frame the argument continuously. Your assumption that just because someone trains a "more practical" martial art breeds some level of competence is logical fallacy itself.

Really? Do tell. Which logical fallacy do you have in mind?

I recently had a friends wife ask me if she needed to register her hands as deadly weapons because she had trained BJJ once a week for two months because this same stupid philosophy permeates martial arts schools.

So, you have a fictional friend with a fictional wife who attends 8 classes at a fictional BJJ school, and she's not a lawyer. Okay. Keep going... oh, sorry. That's the entire story? Cool.

Any given fighter is a product more of the quality of their training and conditioning than any style and most people aren't putting in the hours to get anywhere near mastery.

Anyone who trains regularly at a reputable BJJ school at least 3 days per week for 6 months or more is going to have demonstrable skill. They may not ever be a UFC fighter, but they will most certainly have skills that they can use. And the longer they train, the better they will get. Everyone's individual progress is unique to them, but BJJ and other arts with similar training methods (i.e., competition and application) produce predictable and reliable competence. This idea that you have to be a master to be competent is malarkey.

If this argument has morphed, its gone from a dogpile on Aikido to a constant stream of what ifs and excuses from the naysayers. We got Remy's videos on here and some of the new Rokas interviews and now Aikido is no longer Reiki inspired battle kabuki, its just only for bouncers and big guys.

I think we agree about the what ifs and excuses, though I'm not sure we agree on who's making them.

You can take a warrior and put them in any style and get results that are far above the median because most people aren't warriors. Similarly there is a huge difference between people who dedicate themselves to technical mastery of a martial art and the average bear taking classes in a strip mall. The problem with you guys doing the style bashing here is that you link videos of people doing things in the UFC and then equate that to your own level of ability and skill or that it represents some median average when you're just smoking philosophical crack. Just because Aikido isn't going to win the next UFC doesn't put you on the same level of ability and competence as a UFC fighter because you have trained BJJ. Aikido, once again, is a small toolbox meant for specific situations, it just so happens that those situations are widely applicable in the context of the type of conflict that most people will ever get into if they EVER fight.

The beauty of a system that has integrity is that you don't have to be a warrior to build competence, though competence fosters confidence, which leads to that warrior spirit. For the rest, I'll just say your characterization of folks who train in practical styles says more about your own biases than anyone else's.

 

[jayoliver00]

That is all beside the point. You can’t honestly simplify it down to: either you help someone or you are a coward. That is intellectually dishonest.

Then let me rephrase it to, either you're a hero or somewhat of a coward or a complete coward. Because it does comes down to being scared of something.

 

[jayoliver00]

There were multiple reports done on the incident, and that's what his cousin is quoted saying, that he jumped in to help. That's just the type of person he is.

Another source stated that someone appeared to be intoxicated, bumped into someone then got beaten. But I don't know who they are referring to when they say "He"

So by "multiple reports" you mean just 2 reports; with the 2nd one (that's not the one that I used), being way more inconclusive and obscure.

It doesn't take a long to scan the environment or people. Our eyes and brains process a lot of data just by driving down the street.

I never mentioned character traits. You can have good Character traits without fighting. Being willing to face danger doesn't mean that a person has good character traits. There's a lot of people who are willing to face danger who don't have what many would consider good Character traits.

But in this case, it was pretty clear what his character traits were when he tried to save 2 people getting jumped; despite overwhelming odds. But you just want to say he's dumb and his styles of MA training sucks; in a passive way.

 

[jayoliver00]

Right, show me how you handle getting kicked in the head while you are wrestling on the ground, I'm still waiting for that BJJ move.

Easy. Double leg, lift high and spike 1st guy's head, head first into the cement. Release, technical standup & make some distance; this should take 2-3 seconds only.

Now see if the others want to play "head trauma".

 

[Shatteredzen]

Really? Do tell. Which logical fallacy do you have in mind?



So, you have a fictional friend with a fictional wife who attends 8 classes at a fictional BJJ school, and she's not a lawyer. Okay. Keep going... oh, sorry. That's the entire story? Cool.


Anyone who trains regularly at a reputable BJJ school at least 3 days per week for 6 months or more is going to have demonstrable skill. They may not ever be a UFC fighter, but they will most certainly have skills that they can use. And the longer they train, the better they will get. Everyone's individual progress is unique to them, but BJJ and other arts with similar training methods (i.e., competition and application) produce predictable and reliable competence. This idea that you have to be a master to be competent is malarkey.



I think we agree about the what ifs and excuses, though I'm not sure we agree on who's making them.



The beauty of a system that has integrity is that you don't have to be a warrior to build competence, though competence fosters confidence, which leads to that warrior spirit. For the rest, I'll just say your characterization of folks who train in practical styles says more about your own biases than anyone else's.

a) its called a false equivalency

b) my imaginary friends are more real than your imaginary martial arts expertise

c) "anyone" is an appeal to probability, no not anyone, unless your definition of competence is in passing belt tests to show proficiency, which is not the same as actual demonstrable ability or any real competence in fighting. If this were true, we wouldn't be having this argument, you would know better.

d) you can go back and read the thread and pretty easily watch the local BJJ herpa derps trying as hard as they can to shift the argument around to keep this a dogpile instead of a thread about Aikido, which none of you seem to know anything about anyways other than Hanzou really doesn't like his neighborhood dojo's ads.

e) I have no characterization of people who train in practical styles, because every style is practical if the training is good. I have a characterization of people who bandwagon whatever is popular for their self image because those are the people who style bash and spend 80 pages in an Aikido thread arguing about how great they are at BJJ when the topic is Aikido.

 

[Shatteredzen]

Easy. Double leg, lift high and spike 1st guy's head, head first into the cement. Release, technical standup & make some distance; this should take 2-3 seconds only.

Now see if the others want to play "head trauma".

You left out the go to jail for murder part, aside from the rest of that fantasy, yet somehow Aikido is imaginary?

 

[jayoliver00]

You left out the go to jail for murder part, aside from the rest of that fantasy, yet somehow Aikido is imaginary?

Oh, so you don't know how to double leg TD someone and spiking them on their head in 2-3 seconds, that you find this so amazing? Weak back, weak legs & arms? I recommend doing some weight & agility training; then some BJJ for the proper techs.

And wait, so those reality self defense Aikido techs aren't really reality then since you just admitted to not willing to do what it takes to survive? Wonder who's living in a fantasy world

 

[Shatteredzen]

Oh, so you don't know how to double leg TD someone and spiking them on their head in 2-3 seconds, that you find this so amazing? Weak back, weak legs & arms? I recommend doing some weight & agility training; then some BJJ for the proper techs.

And wait, so those reality self defense Aikido techs aren't really reality then since you just admitted to not willing to do what it takes to survive? Wonder who's living in a fantasy world

No no, your entire scenario was imaginary. Despite the arguing back and forth, the rest of us have been having a discussion. This is more creative imagination then all of the Aikido reiki crystals from the rest of the thread.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Most do not. But we still can handle single attacker quite well. Even trained one. Difficult to say this about aikido guys.

The thing is. we aren't talking about 1 vs 1. We are talking about 9 people who were beating down 2 guys then a third with possibly 2 other who carried out the beating.

5 vs 1 in this photo. Yellow Dots are the attackers. To the right of this scene was a 4 vs 1 situation.

BJJ /MMA Coach. This is the reality. There was no 1 vs 1 in this context.

 

[Shatteredzen]

The thing is. we aren't talking about 1 vs 1. We are talking about 9 people who were beating down 2 guys then a third with possibly 2 other who carried out the beating.

5 vs 1 in this photo. Yellow Dots are the attackers. To the right of this scene was a 4 vs 1 situation.

View attachment 26814

BJJ /MMA Coach. This is the reality. There was no 1 vs 1 in this context.
View attachment 26815

An over confident BJJ coach who thought he was going to wrestle his way into helping that situation. It's sad and unfortunate because his instinct to help got him hurt.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The thing is. we aren't talking about 1 vs 1. We are talking about 9 people who were beating down 2 guys then a third with possibly 2 other who carried out the beating.

This is why the striking skill and weapon skill are important.

My teacher was the best Chinese wrestler in China during his time. One time in a theater fight in Taipei, He had to deal with 6 guys. he used elbow and fist. He didn't use any of his throwing skill.

One time he had to fight against a group of bus drivers in a Shanghai bus station. He got a chair and waited at the bottom of the stair. He used the chair to knock down everybody who came down from that stair. He also didn't use any of his throwing skill.

In a group fight, if you can't drop one opponent with 1 punch (MA training goal), you probably don't have the 2nd chance.

All those throwing skill in this clip are good. It's just not good enough to be used in any group fight.

 

[Shatteredzen]

This is why the striking skill and weapon skill are important.

My teacher was the best Chinese wrestler in China during his time. One time in a theater fight in Taipei, He had to deal with 6 guys. he used elbow and fist. He didn't use any of his throwing skill.

One time he had to fight against a group of bus drivers in a Shanghai bus station. He got a chair and waited at the bottom of the stair. He used the chair to knock down everybody who came down from that stair. He also didn't use any of his throwing skill.

My teacher told me that in a group fight, if I can't use one punch to drop one opponent, I'm not good enough.

This is something many people don't understand, you use the right tool, for the right job at the right time. Also, which art is that in your video? It looks Chinese but it looks very Judo esque.

 

[Flying Crane]

Then let me rephrase it to, either you're a hero or somewhat of a coward or a complete coward. Because it does comes down to being scared of something.

...ok then...

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

which art is that in your video? It looks Chinese but it looks very Judo esque.

That is Chinese wrestling (Shuai Chiao, Shuai Jiao).

Many people don't understand that:

- Sport is the path.
- Combat is the goal.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Some people risks their life for others;

This is why I hate the term "self-defense". It's so selfish. How about helping the other?

Here is my favor video.

 

[Hanzou]

It produces skills that are good for making well rounded fighters because there is a chance that any given conflict will end up going to the ground. By itself there is no striking and no standing techniques, making it about as useful on its own as a wet paper bag anywhere outside of a sporting competition. I may or may not dodge a sucker punch, you for sure will take a boot straight in the mouth while you wrestle with someone on the ground. If all you have in your bag of tricks is some BJJ classes, you for sure are better off with only some mild Aikido interpretive dance skills and a plan to run to your car for practical self defense.

Uh, there are standing throws, chokes, and locks in Bjj. A competent Bjj exponent will be able to choke you out standing just as well as they can choke you out on the floor.

 

[Shatteredzen]

Uh, there are standing throws, chokes, and locks in Bjj. A competent Bjj exponent will be able to choke you out standing just as well as they can choke you out on the floor.

No Hanzou, that's called Judo.