Aikido.. The reality?

[Hanzou]

I think its imperative. I would love to see BJJ studios bring in the Aikido the way they have Judo and show some love to the foster kid in the family. I would pay good money to get into a big BJJ studio that spent some time theory crafting and practicing with Aikido techniques/principles. The Aikido community doesn't seem to be doing the work to fix itself, it would be great to see the brain trust in BJJ to work on salvaging Aikido from itself. Right now the BJJ community is having too much fun just making fun of it and pretending it doesn't exist.

The thing is that Judo actually has something to offer Bjj, and can be incorporated into the Bjj regimen rather easily. Aikido simply doesn't have anything practical to offer Bjj that it couldn't pick up from more practical sources.

Do you remember a few weeks ago when this was all theoretical? Now its only effective for big burly men who cross train other MA's since Dan the Wolfman and Remy made their videos. When we started this journey together I was just doing Japanese interpretive dance and none of it worked at all.

And nothing's changed. Dan the Wolfman wristlocking teenagers half his size doesn't prove the efficacy of Aikido.

 

[Shatteredzen]

Feel free to find a Bjj school that states that it will teach you how to beat multiple attackers.

This Is How BJJ Practitioners Can Train For Multiple Opponents

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu has been proven to be an effective self dense system, however many of its detractors bring up the case of multiple attackers. In reality, there is no perfect martial art against multiple attackers. As Navy Seal and BJJ black belt Jocko Willink says, the best strategy is to...

www.bjjee.com

 

[Hanzou]

This Is How BJJ Practitioners Can Train For Multiple Opponents

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu has been proven to be an effective self dense system, however many of its detractors bring up the case of multiple attackers. In reality, there is no perfect martial art against multiple attackers. As Navy Seal and BJJ black belt Jocko Willink says, the best strategy is to...

www.bjjee.com

Do you know what a seminar is?

 

[Shatteredzen]

The thing is that Judo actually has something to offer Bjj, and can be incorporated into the Bjj regimen rather easily. Aikido simply doesn't have anything practical to offer Bjj that it couldn't pick up from more practical sources.

You BJJ guys seem to love our Aikido guillotine choke so I dunno... lol

In all seriousness though that's where you are wrong, but learning requires a suspension of the ego and as humble as you guys claim to be there's a fair amount of students who are anything but.

 

[Shatteredzen]

Do you know what a seminar is?

I know exactly what some low intensity randori looks like

 

[Hanzou]

You BJJ guys seem to love our Aikido guillotine choke so I dunno... lol

In all seriousness though that's where you are wrong, but learning requires a suspension of the ego and as humble as you guys claim to be there's a fair amount of students who are anything but.

Again, with no evidence showing that Aikido techniques are effective outside of demonstrations, what could it offer Bjj? If someone wishes to practice Aikido for their own personal reasons that's fine, but frankly that time spent learning Aikido would be better served cross training in Boxing or Muay Thai, something that would actually benefit their Bjj training in a practical manner.

Just look at someone like Rokas; 15 years in Aikido and he had zero skill transfer when he entered Bjj. At least a Judo Black Belt would be a terror on their feet and would force everyone to Guard Pull.

 

[Shatteredzen]

Again, with no evidence showing that Aikido techniques are effective outside of demonstrations, what could it offer Bjj? If someone wishes to practice Aikido for their own personal reasons that's fine, but frankly that time spent learning Aikido would be better served cross training in Boxing or Muay Thai, something that would actually benefit their Bjj training in a practical manner.

In your opinion, which is not based on any experience. I think the movement, timing and techniques are all unique to Aikido and if they are trained against resistance they build on your Judo and BJJ. We can watch Tomiki tournaments and see the Aikido applied at full speed and against resisting opponents, what I would like to see is the speed and movement of Tomiki combined with Judo and BJJ. The tanto randori for one is a great exercise for practicing weapon disarms and Aikido works well for teaching unarmed to armed defenses. The Aikido bolts in pretty easily and it doesn't take that much time to teach someone with good fundamentals.

 

[Hanzou]

In your opinion, which is not based on any experience. I think the movement, timing and techniques are all unique to Aikido and if they are trained against resistance they build on your Judo and BJJ. We can watch Tomiki tournaments and see the Aikido applied at full speed and against resisting opponents, what I would like to see is the speed and movement of Tomiki combined with Judo and BJJ. The tanto randori for one is a great exercise for practicing weapon disarms and Aikido works well for teaching unarmed to armed defenses. The Aikido bolts in pretty easily and it doesn't take that much time to teach someone with good fundamentals.

Have you actually seen Tomiki tournaments? The fact that they seem to disallow grips greatly reduce it's practicality in Bjj and Judo.

I would also argue that the tanto randori just teaches you how to get stabbed.

 

[drop bear]

The better method is stay on your feet and move around.

Yeah. But that method still has to work.
It looks like jose was standing and moving around. Untill he got beaten up.

 

[Cynik75]

Wait two days boys:

 

[Hanzou]

Wait two days boys:

There's no need. Competitive Aikido simply wouldn't benefit Bjj practice. Frankly, I believe it would actually retard Bjj practice.

At the end of the day, neither Judo or Aikido is really optimal for Bjj stand up. Modern Bjj standup pulls more heavily from wrestling, old school Gracie JJ, and MMA. Judo's standup, while extremely good is also highly technical and takes a lot of practice to be proficient in. Also it can be very difficult to transition to No-gi because of Judo's dependence on gi grips. It's WAY more applicable than Aikido, but I would tell any Bjj practitioner that if they want to improve their stand up, they should learn wrestling. You can use wrestling for every level of Bjj practice, and it's easier to learn.

I've already spoken about Aikido. I'm really struggling hard to find some level of application of Aikido for Bjj practice and I simply can't find it. The level of practicality simply isn't there from what I see. I suppose if you want to add some Japanese flavor to your practice like Roy Dean's group you could take it up. Outside of that....

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

if they want to improve their stand up, they should learn wrestling.

But you will develop bad habit from the wrestling stance. A pure sport can bring you a lot of bad habit.

 

[JowGaWolf]

They're going to jump into that situation because the Aikido dojo they attended made them believe that they could take on multiple attackers and prevail.

Based on what‽ How many cases do you know of where an Aikido practitioners jumps into a fight?

 

[Shatteredzen]

There's no need. Competitive Aikido simply wouldn't benefit Bjj practice. Frankly, I believe it would actually retard Bjj practice.

At the end of the day, neither Judo or Aikido is really optimal for Bjj stand up. Modern Bjj standup pulls more heavily from wrestling, old school Gracie JJ, and MMA. Judo's standup, while extremely good is also highly technical and takes a lot of practice to be proficient in. Also it can be very difficult to transition to No-gi because of Judo's dependence on gi grips. It's WAY more applicable than Aikido, but I would tell any Bjj practitioner that if they want to improve their stand up, they should learn wrestling. You can use wrestling for every level of Bjj practice, and it's easier to learn.

I've already spoken about Aikido. I'm really struggling hard to find some level of application of Aikido for Bjj practice and I simply can't find it. The level of practicality simply isn't there from what I see. I suppose if you want to add some Japanese flavor to your practice like Roy Dean's group you could take it up. Outside of that....

The movement in Aikido is different to Judo and BJJ, an incorporation of Aikido into Judo/BJJ movement only requires basic rule changes and I'm not suggesting a one for one incorporation either. What I see in current BJJ/MMA schools for weapon defense is laughable and unrealistic and most of it is just wholesale snatched from whatever krav maga class the instructor took although sometimes its polished up a little bit. Aikido techniques work very well on individuals holding weapons because the sympathetic reflex to maintain the grip on the weapon and the mechanics of taking the weapon away are complementary.

You can see "Aikido" techniques that were invented independently by the Europeans that show up in the medieval fight books for unarmed versus armed opponents and these are still regarded well in the HEMA circles as effective. While it has plenty of post war additions that can be thrown out as ineffective, the core of Aikido is sound, it is the focus on non-competition, out dated training methods and the lack of ability on the part of the students and even teachers within the Aikido community which make it "ineffective".

I've always taught using the BJJ method of demonstrate one or two techniques at the beginning of class, have everyone spend some time getting comfortable with them, answer any questions and then move straight into rolling. What I would like to do in the future is split this between time doing free grappling with no striking where either student can be the uke or nage and a version of the tanto randori where one person strikes or wields a weapon and the other student attempts to apply techniques against the attacker while evading.

I have always subscribed to the idea that what makes BJJ so practical and effective from a training standpoint is the amount of time students have to spend actively working through their "toolbox" under pressure and the fact that having to make do with your level of expertise or lack thereof forces you to "figure it out" when it comes to applying what you have been taught. MCMAP for example is really only a handful of techniques pulled from Aikido, Judo, BJJ, Muay Thai and Wrestling but it builds practical results quickly by emphasizing speed and aggression and forcing the students to practically apply what they learn in full contact sparring. What MCMAP lacks in total number of techniques it makes up for by making its students very good at just a few things they can train to failure at and reliably apply.

If we drop all the extraneous techniques from Aikido that fall outside of the core concepts and just drill the arts core principles you can teach the system itself fairly quickly. This would go a long way to making it a more practical, niche part of Judo/Jujitsu grappling which has always been what Aikijutsu was in the past anyways. I think to save Aikido from itself it is going to have to drop the post war fluff and adopt more modern, more resistance based training methods. I doubt the Hombu dojo would follow along with such a drastic change but I would be fine with Hombu Aikido remaining as a self development art and practical Aikido moving forward as something else which is what Kenji Tomiki was trying to do back in the fifties and sixties anyways.

 

[Shatteredzen]

Yeah. But that method still has to work.
It looks like jose was standing and moving around. Untill he got beaten up.

He has no situational awareness, he does nothing to address the people to his flanks and behind him. If anything, he could have definetely benefited from even traditional Aikido randori and had a better chance of coming out of that situation or fleeing.

 

[drop bear]

He has no situational awareness, he does nothing to address the people to his flanks and behind him. If anything, he could have definetely benefited from even traditional Aikido randori and had a better chance of coming out of that situation or fleeing.

Provided aikido randori does what you state.

I mean if this worked. Then yeah he could have just walked through the crowd just throwing everyone.

 

[Hanzou]

But you will develop bad habit from the wrestling stance. A pure sport can bring you a lot of bad habit.

View attachment 26817

How is that particular stance "bad"?

 

[drop bear]

How is that particular stance "bad"?

Bad for striking.

 

[Hanzou]

Based on what‽ How many cases do you know of where an Aikido practitioners jumps into a fight?

Based on the fact that we have Aikido schools telling their students they can beat multiple attackers.

 

[Hanzou]

Bad for striking.

Yeah, but if you're a trained wrestler, you'll know not to use that stance for striking. It's an excellent stance for its purpose, which is grappling.