Aikido not practical?

[Andy Moynihan]

Scoff Scoff:ultracool

I used to scoff at Aikido too.

Not something I personally have chosen to study, but no longer something I laugh at either.

In any event let us know how it goes.

 

[Josh]

Will do.

 

[thetruth]

It wasn't used, therefore not tested, so you assume that it's not practical? That's kind of strange in itself. The truth (no pun intended) is that if you have the mind set to train an art in self defense terms, it can be effective. I know a few street effective Aikidoka. Believe me having worked with them and seen them in action, there's nothing "not practical" about them.

In the end, if anyone doubts it, find a dojo, go in and challenge the senior students and draw your own conclusions. The same stuff was said about Karate and Kung Fu back in the day too.

If you train in an art form for a long period of time would you not expect your responses to a threat to come from that art form???? In a self defense scenario there isn't time to mentally choose your response it will come directly from your training or lack there of. If these guys had been training for so long then I DO find it strange that they didn't use it.

Oh and I don't go challenging other schools to test their effectiveness. That's just childish.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

 

[kwaichang]

2 cents worth: if you're attacked in an elevator you might want another art but in any kind of situation where you have a bit of room, Akido is very effective and you don't have to be Schwartzenagger to use them.

 

[Hand Sword]

If you train in an art form for a long period of time would you not expect your responses to a threat to come from that art form???? In a self defense scenario there isn't time to mentally choose your response it will come directly from your training or lack there of. If these guys had been training for so long then I DO find it strange that they didn't use it.

Oh and I don't go challenging other schools to test their effectiveness. That's just childish.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

You could train many years and have an expert level of skill, then one day a punch comes in while you're doing whatever and you just fling up your arms. Basing an unused art's ability on a bunch of drunk brawlers that don't use it isn't too intelligent (since we're discussing "childishness" here).
Have you ever been in or witnessed a brawl drunk or not among a group of people? Nothing too artistic in there. What about using elements from Aikido that other systems have and do? It's practical and effective when they do it but not when Aikidoka use them?

Be different from most please and experience and learn for yourself. Don't just repeat what others think and quote it as a fact. You are a MA practitoner, and should be above that. Any attacks against one style are attacks against all. You should be into gaining real insight in your studies. Then again, if it's just a hobby--that fine too.

You don't have to challenge a whole school. There's nothing wrong with the suggestion of cross training/sparring. It helps both sides. As I eluded to already, at one time ALL of the Martial Arts were and are still laughed at, and considered a joke. It's all "chop socky" stuff to some for kids and fun. Since the majority of the population doesn't practice it, and have their views and assumptions, should we follow your logic and come to the same conclusions based on heresay and opinions?

 

[SageGhost83]

Different strokes for different folks, not all arts are going to work for all people. There is no one size fits all, and no one style is going to be "effective" for every person. You must find what works best for you. Aikido may not do anything for you (or it may - how do you know if you don't at least try it out), but it could wreak sheer devastation in the hands of another. Same with any other style. It all comes down to the individual. I agree with you, Hand Sword. Far too many people listen to armchair martial artists these days and parrot their misinformed opinions without taking the time to actually go out and try the style for themselves.

 

[Deaf Smith]

If you like Aikido (and I know one FBI agent who practices it) then use it as your base. Master it. Then go train on an art that is totaly different (like Shotokan or TKD or Isshin-ryu, etc..) and broaden your knowledge.

Deaf

 

[Josh]

Okay. Time for an update!

We ended up sparring tonight and I learned so much about the joining of energy(resisting vs joining). A lot of my ignorance about Aikido was cleared up. We sparred but nothing stood out about us sparring. It looked a lot like judo to me when it was in use.

My interest was sparked and we actually ended up talking about Aikido for a few hours. We talked and talked and talked. Until I decided that I want to learn some, and so I am going to teach him some Shotokan, and He's going to teach me some Aikido.

I was very impressed. It's still never going to be primary style or something I feel matches my own personal way of defending myself but it's something I sure have a new found respect for. A good day for all. I am not scoffing anymore, and I've learned something. Win/Win.

 

[theletch1]

Excellent! Glad you were a true skeptic about the art. Doubtful but still open to learning and found new respect for something that's 180 degrees from your base art.

 

[hongkongfooey]

Aikido is the hippie of the martial arts family.:boing2:

Many years ago, I walked into an Aikido studio with a friend of mine. We were both interested in joining. We watched the class, and talked with the instructor for a while afterwards. Too much BS about harmony and Ki. If we would have stuck around, I'm sure he would have invited us to a drum circle. Too much Do and not enough Jutsu.

 

[theletch1]

Aikido is the hippie of the martial arts family.:boing2:

Many years ago, I walked into an Aikido studio with a friend of mine. We were both interested in joining. We watched the class, and talked with the instructor for a while afterwards. Too much BS about harmony and Ki. If we would have stuck around, I'm sure he would have invited us to a drum circle. Too much Do and not enough Jutsu.

You're judging an entire family of arts based on one experience with one instructor? Kinda limits your ability to learn from other arts doesn't it? The aikido world includes an entire spectrum of different schools that range from what would appear to be no more than meditation groups to schools that really are closer to -jutsu than -do. Don't rush to judge an entire family of arts until you've done some quality mat time with more than one school.

 

[Chizikunbo]

I saw a class recently and I've seen a lot of video on Aikido.
I have to say that I'm confused. In all of the demonstrations I've seen all of the attacks seem to be insanely telegraphed. Then you see the man taking the almost funny looking unrealistic attack throw the attacker (and by throw, I mean the attacker helps himself get thrown) I also see a lot of grabbing of the wrist. Really? I've sparred with many Martial Artists but none have tried to grab my wrist. (mostly because they'd be asking for a knock-down)

My question is.. Is Aikido supposed to be a practical form of self defense?
If so, What am I missing?

I ask respectfully. I really want to know what's up with this?

Hello Josh,
I would like to offer that on this topic, it almost never comes down to the art, but always the individual practicioner. There are alot of elements in Aikido that can only be felt, and not understood through watching in person or in videos.
Many of the "telegraphed" techniques are used to teach principles, how to respond to a variety of attacks..When you learn the principles you can move into randori practice, with no prearranged attacks, and often multiple attackers, to foster a Mu Shin type of MINDBODY technique fusion. Granted, I dont know the actual videos you speak of, in general this is true. We often use wrist grabs to teach students the principles of wrist manipulation. Its a starting point, to begin to teach techniques, which will often later begin from a variety of strikes where you join the attack and move into a joint manipulation based on the principles taught initially using simplified versions of wrist grabs...Trying to teach a student multiple complex methodologies against all out attacks is far less effective than breaking down the fundamentals in easy to digest bits.

take care,
--josh

 

[jks9199]

You're judging an entire family of arts based on one experience with one instructor? Kinda limits your ability to learn from other arts doesn't it? The aikido world includes an entire spectrum of different schools that range from what would appear to be no more than meditation groups to schools that really are closer to -jutsu than -do. Don't rush to judge an entire family of arts until you've done some quality mat time with more than one school.

It's a pretty fair description, unfortunately.

Most aikido that I've come across is practiced by folks who are of that "hippie/peach & love" mindset. Many of them would be shocked at an intimation that it might be used to actually fight! And even many of the more defense-oriented schools still have a more peace/love/tranquility approach; it goes with the style of entering and joining with an opponents energy instead of the more "bash 'em till they fall down" mindset that makes the opposite end, like in MMA or some hard style karate systems.

There are plenty of exceptions... but as a generic description, it's pretty good.

 

[kwaichang]

Watch some of Steven Segals early movies and you'll see how well it works for self-defense. Or look at it in a dojo test

 

[charyuop]

What are we talking about? And who can tell "yes, that guy is using Aikido". I surely cannot and I have been doing Aikido for over a year...but it seems that many people who never stepped in an Aikido dojo know what Aikido is and can recognize it at first sight. Ok, let's see the point of view of someone who has seen some Aikido, but not good enough to judge it.

1_ Grabbing wrist. For me still one of the hardest things in the dojo. Connecting with the partner and moving him when he turns into a rock seems easier than it is. Moving with a hand blocking you without giving any "feedback" to the opponent seems easier than it is (had an MMA friend try and he muscled me away...). Trying to do a given technique when the grabber instead of being a rock crashes you inside of yourself seems easier than it is. Sometimes it is way much easier Vs a punch...you see clearly direction, angles and energy, nothing to "feel" in there.
2_ Uke compliant? Well of course yes. I already suck now, if Uke was not compliant I should just quit Aikido. When I was a kid and my parents enrlolled me in a class to learn how to swim I remember I was not thrown in the middle of the pool and told "now swim". Same thing here. No need to say that I could never do any technique, not even very badly, to my Sensei if he didn't want me to. What I would learn from it? That Sensei is better than me...ok thanx, case dismissed! Of course Uke will add some more elements into the "game" the more advanced you become.
3_ High falls just for look. You go to an Aikido dojo and try. Like every beginner (and at a certain level I still do it) you won't be complaiant at all. You will be a piece of wood trying to resist all you feel on you. IT HURTS AS HELL! There are two things I have learnt so far about Uke: the faster you attack the hardest you fall and the more you resist, the more it hurts. Not to mention that if you put so much resistance you lose chance to counter attack...but that is another story.
4_ You don't fall you have a broken joint. Gladly this is not true...of course depending of the person you face. If we decide to spar of course punches fly. But if I had the chance to apply a technique like a kotegaeshi (dangerous for the wrist) or a Ude Kime Nage (dangerous for the elbow) and I feel you resist I doubt I would go on and break you. I have reached the opinion that doesn't matter how good you are in taking Ukemi, if a technique is done well and quick enough there is no way you can save your joints...and not true only for Aikido. True high falls help alot to save yourself, but if done well a technique with 100% intention I doubt you can actually save your joints.
5_ Looks like a dance and not practical. If it doesn't look like dance, one who is not Aikidoka could recognize Aikido? So a Demo would be still showing Aikido in the eyes of people? I have seen so many things in my dojo done by my Sensei and Senpai that made me wonder...wow but where is the Aikido??? I have seen a randori more like a real multi-opponent fight where the one alone doesn't wait for the attacks in turn, but even tho Aikidoka he is the one attacking (and seen Aikido as a attack puzzled me alot). I have see Sensei do techniques that I knew just by the name, but that when made Vs a full speed attack change completely look. I have had Sensei punching me with a fast combo and at a try from me to block he applied a quick kotegaeshi that looked nothing like the nice demos you see on youtube.

Aikido, what is it? This is a question that in the life of an Aikidoka has many different answers. The answer changes with the passing of time, but it is never shown to people 100%. Why? A secret? No, because Aikido is something you don't decide from the beginning, Aikido is something that developes in the run, by a combination between Nage and Uke (attacker and defender) where the Aikidoka him/herself won't know what is gonna happen in the very next second.

 

[kwaichang]

What are we talking about? And who can tell "yes, that guy is using Aikido". I surely cannot and I have been doing Aikido for over a year.

Many on this board have traveled and seen Aikido dojos in Japan and other countries, run by high ranking and respected teachers.
If you're in MA long enough, you generally can look at randori and get the feel for where a particular technique comes from.
It's a long process, give yourself time.

 

[theletch1]

Very true, Kwaichang. I can pick out generalities but I'm no where near as good as some of the guys we have here that can look at some of the CMA and tell you which family style it is. Time and experience will help if you want it to.

Charyuop, I can hear the irritation in your voice. Relax. There will always be detractors to the style. It's just part of studying the MAs. Unfortunately for the aikido-ka many of the things that folks believe about our art have actually been actively fomented by the "peace, love and happiness" crowd that ran so rampant during the late 60s and early 70s. They took the spiritual side of Ueshiba's aikido and ran with it without really understanding the combat dynamics of the art. I'm always happy to have folks underestimate me. Makes life easier.

 

[charyuop]

Many on this board have traveled and seen Aikido dojos in Japan and other countries, run by high ranking and respected teachers.
If you're in MA long enough, you generally can look at randori and get the feel for where a particular technique comes from.
It's a long process, give yourself time.

Kwaichang, for the ones that know of MA I have nothing against, also coz be sure that you don't hear from those people certain kind of reasonings. What bothers me is people who criticize something that they have never tried nor spend some time to analize it. A couple of videos on youtube are enough to make an opinion.

I know theletch, usually I don't react this way, I actually kinda ignore them. I guess a vent once in a while won't hurt LOL.