Aikido.. The reality?

[Steve]

I'm saying if you can't beat a gang of people up then don't try to do it.

If you can't swim and there's no way to help the child then what else are you going to do? Jump in the water and drown with the kid? What does that accomplish. You'll do that just so someone can call you "heroic" News flash when you die none of that matters.

Also doing something just for the sake of being seen as "heroic" is also stupid.

"If you can't swim" is an actual straw man. Watching a kid drown when you CAN swim, is feckless and cowardly. It goes without saying that you're doing so at some risk to yourself.

But you are right. An aikidoka who doesn't fight literally can't lose a fight. Just like a person who never gets into water literally can't drown. Whether they can fight or can swim becomes irrelevant.

Which brings us back to drinking coffee and eating donuts. My donuts are great at preventing drowning... Provided you stay away from water.

 

[JowGaWolf]

"If you can't swim" is an actual straw man. Watching a kid drown when you CAN swim, is feckless and cowardly. It goes without saying that you're doing so at some risk to yourself.

It's not a straw man. Not everyone can swim. Just like there are millions of people who couldn't successfully fight off a gang of people. unarmed. The 2 people who were originally getting beaten couldn't do it, The BJJ coach couldn't do. A professional MMA fighter can't do (there's video of this occurring else where.) A police officer can't do it. (that's why they have a gun and backup, but going in unarmed nah.). YOU couldn't do it.

Unlike you and some others I accept my limitations and I understand there's other things that can be done other than fighting a gang to help. Where you only see fighting as the only "heroic things" There are smarter and less risky things that can be done.

Where I've actually had to help someone escape a gang of people in real life, all of that heroic talk is BS. Use your head and think of a better way. Your martial arts can't save you from everything no matter how good you are. Martial arts and fighting skills is not always the answer and that's just reality.

You can't save everyone. That's just a reality.

 

[Hanzou]

It's not a straw man. Not everyone can swim. Just like there are millions of people who couldn't successfully fight off a gang of people. unarmed. The 2 people who were originally getting beaten couldn't do it, The BJJ coach couldn't do. A professional MMA fighter can't do (there's video of this occurring else where.) A police officer can't do it. (that's why they have a gun and backup, but going in unarmed nah.). YOU couldn't do it.

Unlike you and some others I accept my limitations and I understand there's other things that can be done other than fighting a gang to help. Where you only see fighting as the only "heroic things" There are smarter and less risky things that can be done.

Where I've actually had to help someone escape a gang of people in real life, all of that heroic talk is BS. Use your head and think of a better way. Your martial arts can't save you from everything no matter how good you are. Martial arts and fighting skills is not always the answer and that's just reality.

You can't save everyone. That's just a reality.

So should Aikido schools advertise stuff like this;


"Aikido practice includes effective self defense against weapons and multiple opponents and stronger/ larger opponents, utilizes natural stances and motions, and includes non-lethal techniques for dealing with violence. Our training methods rarely result in practice injuries, less than most active sports."

About Aikido

A short article on the history of Aikido and its philosophy, and what makes it different from other arts.

tampaaikido.com

I seriously doubt someone who has been trained to believe this would walk away from a situation featuring weapons and/or multiple larger/stronger opponents.

 

[Steve]

It's not a straw man. Not everyone can swim.

Right. But I'm not talking about those folks who can't swim. I'm talking about those folks who can swim.

If we're talking about people who can't fight, why are we in a martial arts forum? As I said before, your argument has morphed, whether you realize it or not, into suggesting that Aikido and Jow Ga are intended not to teach one fighting skills, because you're clinging to this idea that a person can simply avoid fighting, and therefore never be on the wrong end of a fight. The rest of your post is supporting your strawman argument with anecdotal evidence (another logical fallacy).

Just like there are millions of people who couldn't successfully fight off a gang of people. unarmed. The 2 people who were originally getting beaten couldn't do it, The BJJ coach couldn't do. A professional MMA fighter can't do (there's video of this occurring else where.) A police officer can't do it. (that's why they have a gun and backup, but going in unarmed nah.). YOU couldn't do it.

Unlike you and some others I accept my limitations and I understand there's other things that can be done other than fighting a gang to help. Where you only see fighting as the only "heroic things" There are smarter and less risky things that can be done.

Where I've actually had to help someone escape a gang of people in real life, all of that heroic talk is BS. Use your head and think of a better way. Your martial arts can't save you from everything no matter how good you are. Martial arts and fighting skills is not always the answer and that's just reality.

You can't save everyone. That's just a reality.

I don't see fighting as "heroic things" at all. That's... jesus. You just can't stay away from the strawman. The point I actually made is that fighting is never without risk. And when you see someone in trouble and you choose to help, it may not go well for you. The same as when you see a kid drowning and decide to help. There is inherent risk. And if we're talking about a person who is trained in MMA or BJJ or some other practical martial art, it's analogous to someone who is at least a competent swimmer.

So, no. It's not about accepting one's limitations and choosing personal safety over that of others. It's just the opposite, and you're the guy over on the sideline saying, "Damn... that guy drowned trying to save that kid. What a jackwagon. He should've called the cops and let the kid die. That's what I would've done."

 

[JowGaWolf]

So should Aikido schools advertise stuff like this;


"Aikido practice includes effective self defense against weapons and multiple opponents and stronger/ larger opponents, utilizes natural stances and motions, and includes non-lethal techniques for dealing with violence. Our training methods rarely result in practice injuries, less than most active sports."

I can't say specifically because I don't know what their training consists of. I can train successful techniques against weapon and do. One is run away the other is try to get some in between you and the weapon. Those are valid techniques. If that's what they teach then nothing wrong with that. There self-defense curriculum may be separate from their Aikikdo. I teach self defense separate from Kung fu. When I teach someone to fight I teach Kung fu.

If they are saying that Aikdo is the weapons defense, no I don't think they should advertise that. I don't think any martial arts school should unless that school is drilling weapons fighting and defense everyday as if they are about to hop in a gladiator coliseum. If that's not the focus nor the training then I wouldn't advertise that. My son and I train staff everyday with focus of using the staff as a weapon and I wouldn't advertise that because it far from combat training. Weapons trIng is one thing. Weapons defense is totally different mindset. At least in my mind.

 

[Hanzou]

I can't say specifically because I don't know what their training consists of. I can train successful techniques against weapon and do. One is run away the other is try to get some in between you and the weapon. Those are valid techniques. If that's what they teach then nothing wrong with that. There self-defense curriculum may be separate from their Aikikdo. I teach self defense separate from Kung fu. When I teach someone to fight I teach Kung fu.

If they are saying that Aikdo is the weapons defense, no I don't think they should advertise that. I don't think any martial arts school should unless that school is drilling weapons fighting and defense everyday as if they are about to hop in a gladiator coliseum. If that's not the focus nor the training then I wouldn't advertise that. My son and I train staff everyday with focus of using the staff as a weapon and I wouldn't advertise that because it far from combat training. Weapons trIng is one thing. Weapons defense is totally different mindset. At least in my mind.

Of course they're talking about catching the weapon with their hands and doing Aikido to disarm them. You can find examples of that craziness all over the place.

No comment about the consistent belief within Aikido about being able to stop multiple attackers from caving your face in? No comment about the consistent belief that Aikido can actually help smaller people against larger/stronger people, despite only huge guys being able to show off any level of Aikido skill?

 

[Buka]

Eighty three pages....makes me wonder what the longest thread on MT has been. Other than the Last Poster thread, obviously.

This should have been called the yada yada thread. But at least it inspired me to grab a donut to go with this wonderful cup of Kona coffee.

 

[Shatteredzen]

Of course they're talking about catching the weapon with their hands and doing Aikido to disarm them. You can find examples of that craziness all over the place.

No comment about the consistent belief within Aikido about being able to stop multiple attackers from caving your face in? No comment about the consistent belief that Aikido can actually help smaller people against larger/stronger people, despite only huge guys being able to show off any level of Aikido skill?

You are just re-hashing at this point, no one here is saying that Aikido schools should be advertising like that. No martial arts school can claim to produce students that can do those things, its all going to amount to what the individual is capable of. I'm confused as to where you are trying to go with this other than circles, since you are simply arguing with yourself at this point.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The point I actually made is that fighting is never without risk.

This is my first time seeing you make this point. First time seeing this out of 82 pages of posting. I see a lot of Aikido bashing in a thread that was originally created to understand Aikido.

And if we're talking about a person who is trained in MMA or BJJ or some other practical martial art, it's analogous to someone who is at least a competent swimmer.

Based on what standard‽ Just because someone trains a martial arts system doesn't mean that person is skilled enough to use it against multiple attackers. Does Bjj even do multiple attack training? Do they even know what it's like to be surrounded?

Not everyone takes a martial arts to learn to fight. And for that reason alone, people shouldn't feel the obligation to fight simply because they take a martial arts system.

 

[Cynik75]

Does Bjj even do multiple attack training?

Some, self defence oriented schools do. Most do not. But we still can handle single attacker quite well. Even trained one. Difficult to say this about aikido guys.

 

[Shatteredzen]

Right. But I'm not talking about those folks who can't swim. I'm talking about those folks who can swim.

If we're talking about people who can't fight, why are we in a martial arts forum? As I said before, your argument has morphed, whether you realize it or not, into suggesting that Aikido and Jow Ga are intended not to teach one fighting skills, because you're clinging to this idea that a person can simply avoid fighting, and therefore never be on the wrong end of a fight. The rest of your post is supporting your strawman argument with anecdotal evidence (another logical fallacy).



I don't see fighting as "heroic things" at all. That's... jesus. You just can't stay away from the strawman. The point I actually made is that fighting is never without risk. And when you see someone in trouble and you choose to help, it may not go well for you. The same as when you see a kid drowning and decide to help. There is inherent risk. And if we're talking about a person who is trained in MMA or BJJ or some other practical martial art, it's analogous to someone who is at least a competent swimmer.

So, no. It's not about accepting one's limitations and choosing personal safety over that of others. It's just the opposite, and you're the guy over on the sideline saying, "Damn... that guy drowned trying to save that kid. What a jackwagon. He should've called the cops and let the kid die. That's what I would've done."

No one's argument has morphed, there has been a concerted effort to re-frame the argument continuously. Your assumption that just because someone trains a "more practical" martial art breeds some level of competence is logical fallacy itself. I recently had a friends wife ask me if she needed to register her hands as deadly weapons because she had trained BJJ once a week for two months because this same stupid philosophy permeates martial arts schools. Any given fighter is a product more of the quality of their training and conditioning than any style and most people aren't putting in the hours to get anywhere near mastery. If this argument has morphed, its gone from a dogpile on Aikido to a constant stream of what ifs and excuses from the naysayers. We got Remy's videos on here and some of the new Rokas interviews and now Aikido is no longer Reiki inspired battle kabuki, its just only for bouncers and big guys.

You can take a warrior and put them in any style and get results that are far above the median because most people aren't warriors. Similarly there is a huge difference between people who dedicate themselves to technical mastery of a martial art and the average bear taking classes in a strip mall. The problem with you guys doing the style bashing here is that you link videos of people doing things in the UFC and then equate that to your own level of ability and skill or that it represents some median average when you're just smoking philosophical crack. Just because Aikido isn't going to win the next UFC doesn't put you on the same level of ability and competence as a UFC fighter because you have trained BJJ. Aikido, once again, is a small toolbox meant for specific situations, it just so happens that those situations are widely applicable in the context of the type of conflict that most people will ever get into if they EVER fight.

 

[Shatteredzen]

Some, self defence oriented schools do. Most do not. But we still can handle single attacker quite well. Even trained one. Difficult to say this about aikido guys.

Right, show me how you handle getting kicked in the head while you are wrestling on the ground, I'm still waiting for that BJJ move.

 

[drop bear]

Right, show me how you handle getting kicked in the head while you are wrestling on the ground, I'm still waiting for that BJJ move.

Yeah. This doesn't work. People get sucker punched standing as well.

 

[Shatteredzen]

Yeah. This doesn't work. People get sucker punched standing as well.

it sure does, its much harder to sucker punch someone who is on their feet and moving around, I can kick a BJJ black belt square in the head with no issues if he is fighting my friend on the ground. That's why anyone sensible will tell you that ground fighting is for fighting back to your feet. That's why people train BJJ and then something else with it to give themselves standing/striking ability. If you think Aikido is useless, go ahead and lay on the ground in a bar with some guy in a choke or submission hoping he doesn't have friends.

 

[JowGaWolf]

you're the guy over on the sideline saying, "Damn... that guy drowned trying to save that kid. What a jackwagon. He should've called the cops and let the kid die. That's what I would've done."

I'm the guy on the sideline looking for something that floats or something I can use to help that person. Be it a near by boat on the lake a floatation device depending on my reasons for being at the lake. Am I hiking or am I'm in the water as well with my family.

will I still call the police? Yes. Will swim out to the child? Only if I can find something to assist me in my efforts to flt. Or in the efforts to help child float. It also depends on where in the lake the child is. The closer to land the better. Way out in middle of a lake, I'm not going to make it. I don't consider myself a strong swimmer so going out there to drown as well is not something I'm going to do. Just because it's a lake doesn't mean swimming out to someone is going to be feasible. That's why they tell people to wear there life vests. That's just reality. People don't have to like that about me. It's my life and I won't easily throw it away. I definitely won't throw it away just because someone thinks my character is flawed.

 

[drop bear]

it sure does, its much harder to sucker punch someone who is on their feet and moving around, I can kick a BJJ black belt square in the head with no issues if he is fighting my friend on the ground. That's why anyone sensible will tell you that ground fighting is for fighting back to your feet. That's why people train BJJ and then something else with it to give themselves standing/striking ability. If you think Aikido is useless, go ahead and lay on the ground in a bar with some guy in a choke or submission hoping he doesn't have friends.

It is about as easy to hit a guy who is tied up dealing with another guy as it is to hit someone on the ground.

You can't suggest a method is bad without having a better method.

 

[Cynik75]

If you think Aikido is useless, go ahead and lay on the ground in a bar with some guy in a choke or submission hoping he doesn't have friends.

Do you know the meaning of word "single" in "single attacker" phrase? I am aware of bjj (especially sport oriented) limitations. But bjj training methodology and constant close contact to MMA results in production of better fighters than aikido methodology and no contact to any kind of violence.

 

[GreatSayiaman]

Because an mma ring is the closest thing we have to live fighting, short of actual fighting in the street.

The rules that are there don't change much about the situation. Those that say 'if only I could bite and eye gouge things would be different' are kidding themselves.

There was something called Vale Tudo in Brazil where it was anything goes. Even in Japan when Rickson Gracie competed in the Vale Tudo Japan in 94 and 95 eye gouging was allowed, Check out a fighter named Yuki Nakai where he was eye gouged in Vale Tudo 95 Japan and still fought until he faced Rickson Gracie. In America it was No Holds Barred.

But in Subject when it came to Rokas testing his Aikido good for him.

 

[Martial D]

There was something called Vale Tudo in Brazil where it was anything goes. Even in Japan when Rickson Gracie competed in the Vale Tudo Japan in 94 and 95 eye gouging was allowed, Check out a fighter named Yuki Nakai where he was eye gouged in Vale Tudo 95 Japan and still fought until he faced Rickson Gracie. In America it was No Holds Barred.

But in Subject when it came to Rokas testing his Aikido good for him.

Ya..it's like..

Who is going to be better at eye gouging?
The guy that can manipulate your body into a pretzel at will, or the guy stuck on his back with his legs in the air like a dead cockroach?

 

[GreatSayiaman]

Ya..it's like..

Who is going to be better at eye gouging?
The guy that can manipulate your body into a pretzel at will, or the guy stuck on his back with his legs in the air like a dead cockroach?

Exactly and Yuki Nakai messed up that guys Knee with a Heel Hook. That is why I get so annoyed with individuals saying stuff like that.