Aikido.. The reality?

[jobo]

It's not impossible at all. We see multiple examples of effectiveness in other arts. However, no concrete example of Aikido's effectiveness exists unless it's someone who is far larger and more powerful than their opponent forcing the techniques to work.

well exactly, so real world consideration make a,significant difference as to how well it works or not, that's my exact point

all techniques work far better if your in better condition than your attacker, that just the athletic nature of fighting,

pretending that technques exist in a bubble with out such external influences is what you are doing

if someone asked me, and they have, how to increase their self defence capabilities as quickly as possible, I'd refere them to a,strengh building program, followed by a cardio programme, then nearly anything will work against unfit people, who seem to make up a significant % of the population

 

[Hanzou]

well exactly, so real world consideration make a,significant difference as to how well it works or not, that's my exact point

all techniques work far better if your in better condition than your attacker, that just the athletic nature of fighting,

pretending that technques exist in a bubble with out such external influences is what you are doing

if someone asked me, and they have, how to increase their self defence capabilities as quickly as possible, I'd refere them to a,strengh building program, followed by a cardio programme, then nearly anything will work against unfit people, who seem to make up a significant % of the population

Except other martial arts have demonstrated that if the methodology or technique is sound, a smaller, weaker opponent can beat a larger, stronger opponent. Aikdio advertises this, but has yet to demonstrate this capability.

Further, if you're significantly larger and stronger than the person you're fighting, you can make anything work. If I'm fighting a little kid, I don't need technique to throw them around a room or knock them out. However, if you're a woman who is being attacked by your drunk ex-boyfriend who outweighs you by 40-50 lbs, you're going to need a good methodology and high technique to overcome his weight and strength advantage. This is why people take martial arts for self defense.

People don't take martial arts to beat up little kids, they typically take martial arts for self defense because they are weaker and smaller and want to protect themselves against possible assailants who are bigger and stronger. I think that's the main issue here; If you advertise that your martial art can help you fight off larger and stronger opponents, it should do that. Not living up to that self imposed standard can get someone killed.

 

[jobo]

Except other martial arts have demonstrated that if the methodology or technique is sound, a smaller, weaker opponent can beat a larger, stronger opponent. Aikdio advertises this, but has yet to demonstrate this capability.

Further, if you're significantly larger and stronger than the person you're fighting, you can make anything work. If I'm fighting a little kid, I don't need technique to throw them around a room or knock them out. However, if you're a woman who is being attacked by your drunk ex-boyfriend who outweighs you by 40-50 lbs, you're going to need a good methodology and high technique to overcome his weight and strength advantage. This is why people take martial arts for self defense.

People don't take martial arts to beat up little kids, they typically take martial arts for self defense because they are weaker and smaller and want to protect themselves against possible assailants who are bigger and stronger. I think that's the main issue here; If you advertise that your martial art can help you fight off larger and stronger opponents, it should do that. Not living up to that self imposed standard can get someone killed.

well no they havent demonstrated this at all,
a few isolated you tube vids were we have no idea of the relative physical conditioning doesnt demonstraight anything.

you keep focusing on bigger, that not a factor in conditioning, though you can usually see it with your eyes, it can be just as much a disadvantage as an advantage, depending on if you mean taller or heavier or fatter, it means nothing unless you clearly define it

for instance why are you assuming that someone who is 50lbs heavier is also strongerthat's likely to be so if that 50lbs is made up of muscle, not at all if it's made up of beer belly

 

[Hanzou]

well no they havent demonstrated this at all,
a few isolated you tube vids were we have no idea of the relative physical conditioning doesnt demonstraight anything.

you keep focusing on bigger, that not a factor in conditioning, though you can usually see it with your eyes, it can be just as much a disadvantage as an advantage, depending on if you mean taller or heavier or fatter, it means nothing unless you clearly define it

for instance why are you assuming that someone who is 50lbs heavier is also strongerthat's likely to be so if that 50lbs is made up of muscle, not at all if it's made up of beer belly

Uh, yes they have. In competition, in demonstration, and in documented street fights. Perhaps the best examples being Royce Gracie versus Dan Severn when the latter outweighed the former by about 60 lbs, or Antonio Nogueria vs Bob Sapp when the latter outweighed the former by over 100 lbs.

And whether someone is conditioned or not, size and weight is always a factor. You can be fit as hell and get knocked out or crushed by a 300-lb fat man because their weight is simply too much to overcome. That's simply the basics of fighting. I see no reason why I need to clearly define it. It's exactly why we have weight classes in combat sports, because size and weight can tilt a fight in someone's favor. The same applies to self defense situations. Frankly, if you're 6'2 and 200 lbs, you probably don't have to worry about someone attacking you. If you're 5'2 and 100 lbs, that paradigm changes dramatically.

 

[jobo]

Uh, yes they have. In competition, in demonstration, and in documented street fights. Perhaps the best examples being Royce Gracie versus Dan Severn when the latter outweighed the former by about 60 lbs, or Antonio Nogueria vs Bob Sapp when the latter outweighed the former by over 100 lbs.

And whether someone is conditioned or not, size and weight is always a factor. You can be fit as hell and get knocked out or crushed by a 300-lb fat man because their weight is simply too much to overcome. That's simply the basics of fighting. I see no reason why I need to clearly define it. It's exactly why we have weight classes in combat sports, because size and weight can tilt a fight in someone's favor. The same applies to self defense situations. Frankly, if you're 6'2 and 200 lbs, you probably don't have to worry about someone attacking you. If you're 5'2 and 100 lbs, that paradigm changes dramatically.

documented street fight that also document the physical conditioning of the peole involved????? how many of those are there

 

[Hanzou]

documented street fight that also document the physical conditioning of the peole involved????? how many of those are there

Street fight where there is a clear size and weight difference, yes.

I mean, unless someone is having a coronary during the exchange, conditioning means little. Conditioning only really matters if we're talking about extended fights, which tends to happen more in competition than in street brawls.

What tends to happen in street fighting is people square off, they clinch, and they wrestle around. In those phases someone can get knocked out when they square off. The can get slammed to the pavement when they clinch. They can get taken down and grounded and pounded when they wrestle around, and everything in between. Those tend to be the phases of documented street fights, and they tend to be relatively quick affairs.

The relevant point here is that we never see a small Aikidoka tossing around a larger assailant. We don't see it in competition. We don't see it in exhibitions. We don't see it in street fights.

 

[jobo]

Street fight where there is a clear size and weight difference, yes.

I mean, unless someone is having a coronary during the exchange, conditioning means little. Conditioning only really matters if we're talking about extended fights, which tends to happen more in competition than in street brawls.

What tends to happen in street fighting is people square off, they clinch, and they wrestle around. In those phases someone can get knocked out when they square off. The can get slammed to the pavement when they clinch. They can get taken down and grounded and pounded when they wrestle around, and everything in between. Those tend to be the phases of documented street fights, and they tend to be relatively quick affairs.

The relevant point here is that we never see a small Aikidoka tossing around a larger assailant. We don't see it in competition. We don't see it in exhibitions. We don't see it in street fights.

but cleared size and weight are no advantage if you dont have either the strengh or the cardio to move that weight

your building a ficticious argument, , that trained boxers have a weight advantage is because they are fit enough to carry that weight, that is not normally the case with normal fat people, particularly cardio, it's very difficult to have good cardio and still be very fat, there is no correlation at all between body size and strengh, unless strengh is trained

so again, how have you establish the relative physical conditioning on these documented street fight, you havent as it impossible, therefore it's not at all evidence against my point or in favour of yours

 

[Hanzou]

but cleared size and weight are no advantage if you dont have either the strengh or the cardio to move that weight

your building a ficticious argument, , that trained boxers have a weight advantage is because they are fit enough to carry that weight, that is not normally the case with normal fat people, particularly cardio, it's very difficult to have good cardio and still be very fat, there is no correlation at all between body size and strengh, unless strengh is trained

so again, how have you establish the relative physical conditioning on these documented street fight, you havent as it impossible, therefore it's not at all evidence against my point or in favour of yours

In all seriousness, in what scenario do you see someone attacking you with a 50lb+ advantage and not having a strength advantage?

Boxing has weight divisions. Why?

You keep bringing up morbidly obese people on the verge of having a heart attack. Do you honestly think a morbidly obese person with heart problems is going to attack you (I would still argue that anyone with a significant weight advantage over you is a dangerous assailant, regardless of their health and physical condition)?

Again, street encounters TEND to not last long enough for cardio to be a major factor.

This is simply deflection from the relevant point that we never see a small Aikidoka tossing around a larger assailant. We don't see it in competition. We don't see it in exhibitions. We don't see it in street fights.

 

[jobo]

In all seriousness, in what scenario do you see someone attacking you with a 50lb+ advantage and not having a strength advantage?

Boxing has weight divisions. Why?

You keep bringing up morbidly obese people on the verge of having a heart attack. Do you honestly think a morbidly obese person with heart problems is going to attack you (I would still argue that anyone with a significant weight advantage over you is a dangerous assailant, regardless of their health and physical condition)?

Again, street encounters TEND to not last long enough for cardio to be a major factor.

This is simply deflection from the relevant point that we never see a small Aikidoka tossing around a larger assailant. We don't see it in competition. We don't see it in exhibitions. We don't see it in street fights.

inj just about any scenario of them not being able to bench three hundred pounds, if they only weigh 250 lbs pick them up and throw them

no fight are generally short because cardo is a major problem
it was you who started on about three hundred pound people, that is morbidly obese unless they are 7 foot tall and then its just obese

 

[Hanzou]

inj just about any scenario of them not being able to bench three hundred pounds, if they only weigh 250 lbs pick them up and throw them

no fight are generally short because cardo is a major problem
it was you who started on about three hundred pound people, that is morbidly obese unless they are 7 foot tall and then its just obese

No I started on Aikido showing no evidence of being able to overcome a larger, stronger opponent. I have no idea what your point has been in any of this.

 

[jobo]

No I started on Aikido showing no evidence of being able to overcome a larger, stronger opponent. I have no idea what your point has been in any of this.

my point is and was you cant as you insis on separating technque and conditioning

there no evidence of mma beating a stronger opponent in a street fight, as there is no evidence of how strong either of them was

 

[drop bear]

but cleared size and weight are no advantage if you dont have either the strengh or the cardio to move that weight

your building a ficticious argument, , that trained boxers have a weight advantage is because they are fit enough to carry that weight, that is not normally the case with normal fat people, particularly cardio, it's very difficult to have good cardio and still be very fat, there is no correlation at all between body size and strengh, unless strengh is trained

so again, how have you establish the relative physical conditioning on these documented street fight, you havent as it impossible, therefore it's not at all evidence against my point or in favour of yours

Then how do you say bigger better conditioned people win fights?

 

[jobo]

Then how do you say bigger better conditioned people win fights?

I dont thing I said bigger? in fact ive spent a few posts explaining why bigger may not be better

but if the bigger person is also better conditioned things are generally in his favour

 

[drop bear]

I dont thing I said bigger? in fact ive spent a few posts explaining why bigger may not be better

but if the bigger person is also better conditioned things are generally in his favour

In your opinion.

Pretty much everything that will prove better conditioned. Will also prove better trained.

You routinely beat guys with your conditioning. I routinely beat guys with my better skills.

Both are probably the case. But then I am not cherry picking and moving goal posts around.

 

[jobo]

In your opinion.

Pretty much everything that will prove better conditioned. Will also prove better trained.

You routinely beat guys with your conditioning. I routinely beat guys with my better skills.

Both are probably the case. But then I am not cherry picking and moving goal posts around.

yes in my opinion, that more or less all we have to trade on here

the goal is still where I found it, the goal keeper seem to have gone missing

 

[drop bear]

yes in my opinion, that more or less all we have to trade on here

the goal is still where I found it, the goal keeper seem to have gone missing

Not really. I would accept less evidence. So enough videos of smaller trained guys beating bigger untrained guys. And the open mat dynamic. Where bigger untrained guys can at any time test against smaller untrained guys. And where experienced guys do seem to beat inexperienced guys regularly enough.

Or where sports fights where you constantly see conditioning play out in real time. Or again open mats where you routinely against strong guys. Or the open division in BJJ where there is no weight class.

Are all pretty good experiments to at least get a ball park.

Rather than everything being magic and opinions. So therefore I am always right because I want to be.

 

[jobo]

Not really. I would accept less evidence. So enough videos of smaller trained guys beating bigger untrained guys. And the open mat dynamic. Where bigger untrained guys can at any time test against smaller untrained guys. And where experienced guys do seem to beat inexperienced guys regularly enough.

Or where sports fights where you constantly see conditioning play out in real time. Or again open mats where you routinely against strong guys. Or the open division in BJJ where there is no weight class.

Are all pretty good experiments to at least get a ball park.

Rather than everything being magic and opinions. So therefore I am always right because I want to be.

you seem to think people need to provided evidence to you and precisely the evidence you demand ,that's really not the case

particularly as you never provided the evidence that other people request of you

 

[Hanzou]

my point is and was you cant as you insis on separating technque and conditioning

Uh, I never did that. I said that size is always a factor, and size/strength/weight advantages can reduce the need for good technique.

there no evidence of mma beating a stronger opponent in a street fight, as there is no evidence of how strong either of them was

There's plenty all over the place.

 

[jobo]

Uh, I never did that. I said that size is always a factor, and size/strength/weight advantages can reduce the need for good technique.



There's plenty all over the place.

no there isnt, there no point asking you to provided it or youl just pretend to be confused by the question again

 

[Hanzou]

no there isnt, there no point asking you to provided it or youl just pretend to be confused by the question again

Again, yes there is. However I’m not going to post up various videos and you just sit back and say one person isn’t bigger/ stronger than the other.

Which is why I said the best examples are from the competitive realm, because the weight, height, and general size are readily available.