Aikido.. The reality?

[JowGaWolf]

Blaming the student is mostly a cop out.

Especially if it is all the students

But we don't know if it's all the students. We only know that it's Roka. We don't even know if it's his students. He may have lost students because they search, they trained hard, and when they went back to his class it became clear that he didn't have the knowledge that they gained from training.

You have a guy that Trained Aikido for more than 15 years. Drops Aikido, dumps on other martial arts systems and then after he gets his "videos of proof" makes a video that "He was wrong about Aikido" And all of that is the teacher's fault?

What makes it sad is that some of the videos that he was referring to were videos that have been around for years. And he still didn't search for the answers. He challenged others' to prove that their system works which is not the same thing as searching for the answers.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If I bamboozle someone into believing they will be able to disable any attacker by booping them on the nose, and for some reason they can't seem to stop getting their butt kicked, it doesn't mean they need to practice harder to make it work.

But that's not what happened was it? How many times did Roka Spar? If my memory is correct Roka said that he didn't spar. So your argument about them getting hit on the nose and getting there butt kicked isn't something that happened. They didn't put in the work to spar.

 

[drop bear]

But we don't know if it's all the students. We only know that it's Roka. We don't even know if it's his students. He may have lost students because they search, they trained hard, and when they went back to his class it became clear that he didn't have the knowledge that they gained from training.

You have a guy that Trained Aikido for more than 15 years. Drops Aikido, dumps on other martial arts systems and then after he gets his "videos of proof" makes a video that "He was wrong about Aikido" And all of that is the teacher's fault?

What makes it sad is that some of the videos that he was referring to were videos that have been around for years. And he still didn't search for the answers. He challenged others' to prove that their system works which is not the same thing as searching for the answers.

Yeah but we can tell by looking at the other students.

So for example I think Rokus trained MMA at strike force gym.

Now say he trained there and wasn't very good. We could look at the gym and see if other people got good and then actually make an assessment if it was the school or the guy.


So all we do is look at the good students who came out of his Aikido system.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Yeah but we can tell by looking at the other students.

So for example I think Rokus trained MMA at strike force gym.

Now say he trained there and wasn't very good. We could look at the gym and see if other people got good and then actually make an assessment if it was the school or the guy.


So all we do is look at the good students who came out of his Aikido system.

Ok lets use your example

What school did Roka train Aiko in?
Was he one of the students that could apply Aikido or did he just only know book knowledge of Aikido?
What was the focus of training in his school? Peaceful zen mind or application?
Did his school say that they taught self-defense and fighting? It makes a difference. If I Tai Chi for health only then I shouldn't assume that I can fight light those who train Tai Chi as a fighting system. One group puts in the work to fight the other doesn't

We can't see how other students that trained with him as a student turned out. He doesn't talk about them and how they train. He also doesn't state that his teacher mislead him.

Do you remember the guy who trained a martial art. He quickly got his black belt in it, the teacher left. The student then started teaching martial arts. He said that his teacher didn't train punches in under his old system. This guy still made the effort to learn and train punches so that punches would be a part of his training. Was that the teacher or the student who was responsible for him to learn punching?

In terms of Roka. We do not know enough about his old school and how he trained as a student in comparison to the other students, to make an assumption that it was his teacher's fault. Especially when Roka doesn't blame his teacher.

 

[Hanzou]

Did his school say that they taught self-defense and fighting? It makes a difference. If I Tai Chi for health only then I shouldn't assume that I can fight light those who train Tai Chi as a fighting system. One group puts in the work to fight the other doesn't

I have yet to see an Aikido school that doesn't promote itself as a place that teaches self defense.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Who?
Clicking LIKE brings up the various options.

So it does (actually, hovering). I was clicking too quickly for the menu to pop up. Unfortunately, still no agree/disagree, but at least we still have funny.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Not gonna read from the beginning, just gonna say that aikido has always been a controversial martial art, and has been so long before MMA was a thing. And aikidoka are constantly having to defend their art.

That said, I believe this guy. Two things:

- He was a true believer in aikido
- He excels in the current arts that he practices

When you take those two things into consideration, saying that he's the problem and not aikido doesn't make sense.

I think the point some are making is that he has taken a different approach to his current style. I'd assert that's because the current style favors that - it teaches the students how to pressure test, and why it's important. Yes, doing that testing is the student's responsibility, but instructors should be teaching these concepts and the methods for testing. Otherwise, we're asking students to rediscover and reinvent at every generation. That's not how you build an art, it's how you let it degrade.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Blaming the student is mostly a cop out.

Especially if it is all the students

Training culture shapes students who are new to MA. I don't think it's fair to blame students for doing what they are taught. Now if someone who knows better doesn't bother to pressure test, that's their choice.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So, we only get to talk about the unbendable arm thing? That sounds pretty boring. What else is on your approved list of things I'm allowed to say?

Edit. I just went back to what you said, and you were clearly talking about training the unbendable arm thing some kind of real skill and also a parlor trick. This is exactly what I'm talking about. What's your deal, man?

You're free to talk about whatever you like. But don't try to play it like you didn't use an unrelated post to jump to your pet topic to poke.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I have yet to see an Aikido school that doesn't promote itself as a place that teaches self defense.

I have seen a few that really were focused on the peacefulness (and advertised as such), though I suspect it's a rarity within the mainline. Offshoots like Tohei's probably don't, since their focus is on ki.

I think the issue is that most students, when they go to open a school, mostly copy the marketing approach of their instructor and add their personal touch. They don't think really hard about what they are promising.

 

[Hanzou]

I have seen a few that really were focused on the peacefulness (and advertised as such), though I suspect it's a rarity within the mainline. Offshoots like Tohei's probably don't, since their focus is on ki.

I think the issue is that most students, when they go to open a school, mostly copy the marketing approach of their instructor and add their personal touch. They don't think really hard about what they are promising.

Probably has to do with Aikikai being the largest Aikido organization in the world, thus having the majority of affiliated schools around the world.

 

[jobo]

it didnt, really it didnt, not in the one you refered me to, why not swallow your pride and read it again, then quote it exactly, you can even cut and paste for extra accuracy,

Yeah but we can tell by looking at the other students.

So for example I think Rokus trained MMA at strike force gym.

Now say he trained there and wasn't very good. We could look at the gym and see if other people got good and then actually make an assessment if it was the school or the guy.


So all we do is look at the good students who came out of his Aikido system.

that is very true, but that's also what you tend to do with mma exponents

if you pick someone above averagely good then circa 70% of mma students will be worse, the capabilities of the more able cant be used to judge the capabilities of the less able, beyond looking at a distribution curve, which it seems you steadfastly fail to do

 

[Steve]

You're free to talk about whatever you like. But don't try to play it like you didn't use an unrelated post to jump to your pet topic to poke.

Maybe take your own advice, dude. You do a lot of complaining about stuff like this. If I had to guess, at least half of your posts are whining about being misunderstood or accusing someone of something, not posting on topic.

You talked about skill and you talked about parlor tricks, and I was really just pointing out that your analogy wasn't quite complete, because in many cases, the parlor trick IS the skill. And to a lay person, it's impossible to tell the difference between a parlor trick that is grounded in functional skill and a parlor trick that is not. And I'd wager that if that point touches a nerve with some folks, they may know on some level which one of those categories they would fit into. Because, the topic of applied skill sure does seem to bother you. Whenever I or anyone else talks about it, you get mean.

 

[Hanzou]

I found this video interesting. It's related to Rokas' exploits and sort of highlights the general view of Aikido I've been seeing among the MMA, Bjj, Self Defense crowd;

 

[Martial D]

But that's not what happened was it? How many times did Roka Spar? If my memory is correct Roka said that he didn't spar. So your argument about them getting hit on the nose and getting there butt kicked isn't something that happened. They didn't put in the work to spar.

Well, couple things. Few things really

First, you missed the point; if you haven't been equipped to deal with something, which he hadn't, you can't be blamed for not making it work. If I give you a nail and no hammer, blaming you for not getting the nail driven down is a cop out. The system he learned has, as even our resident aikido guy has admitted, no answer for striking or grappling.

Second, he was trained that cooperative randori is all you need, and that his techniques were too dangerous to spar with. Again, until you are at a mental place to call bs, you are blaming him for being fooled.

Third, he did spar. And spar. And spar. And seeked out real skilled opponents, because unlike some, for him playfighting at low intensity and half speed wasn't enough. He just didn't have any tools to use.

And lastly, if the same is true with someone that has learned boxing kickboxing or BJJ fundamentals, when they face off against someone. Even for the first time, they have tools to use. They have been taught proper position, striking, submissions, etc. It's just a matter of refinement. Rojas had no such advantage.

He knew how to nose Boop, but it was useless. It wasn't him, it's that he wasn't taught anything useful

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Maybe take your own advice, dude. You do a lot of complaining about stuff like this. If I had to guess, at least half of your posts are whining about being misunderstood or accusing someone of something, not posting on topic.

You talked about skill and you talked about parlor tricks, and I was really just pointing out that your analogy wasn't quite complete, because in many cases, the parlor trick IS the skill. And to a lay person, it's impossible to tell the difference between a parlor trick that is grounded in functional skill and a parlor trick that is not. And I'd wager that if that point touches a nerve with some folks, they may know on some level which one of those categories they would fit into. Because, the topic of applied skill sure does seem to bother you. Whenever I or anyone else talks about it, you get mean.

Again, it wasn't an analogy. Not sure what's so hard about that. I was talking about two training methods I've used, both of which are pretty indirect.

 

[Steve]

Again, it wasn't an analogy. Not sure what's so hard about that. I was talking about two training methods I've used, both of which are pretty indirect.

Jesus, man. Just let it go. If you don't want to reply, just don't. Stop making this about yourself. I was commenting on an analogy you used, not on your training or anything about you personally. If you don't agree with my analogy, fine. I'm perfectly okay with that. But what you're doing is just sad.

 

[drop bear]

that is very true, but that's also what you tend to do with mma exponents

if you pick someone above averagely good then circa 70% of mma students will be worse, the capabilities of the more able cant be used to judge the capabilities of the less able, beyond looking at a distribution curve, which it seems you steadfastly fail to do

No.

Especially in the context of these programs rokus did. Which take averagely average people. And make them good.

Not UFC good but a lot better than a 10 year Aikido black belt good.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Jesus, man. Just let it go. If you don't want to reply, just don't. Stop making this about yourself. I was commenting on an analogy you used, not on your training or anything about you personally. If you don't agree with my analogy, fine. I'm perfectly okay with that. But what you're doing is just sad.

Ah, so someone clarifying that you are wrong in something you say should just hush. But you can comment on something making incorrect statements, and that's cool.

Gotcha.

 

[jobo]

Ah, so someone clarifying that you are wrong in something you say should just hush. But you can comment on something making incorrect statements, and that's cool.

Gotcha.

they cant possibly be average, as only a small % of the population do it, so really really not average at all

do you know what average means

No.

Especially in the context of these programs rokus did. Which take averagely average people. And make them good.

Not UFC good but a lot better than a 10 year Aikido black belt good.