Aikido.. The reality?

[drop bear]

you seem to think people need to provided evidence to you and precisely the evidence you demand ,that's really not the case

particularly as you never provided the evidence that other people request of you

Not really.

 

[drop bear]

Anyway some live wristlocks from Paul cale.

Pin the elbow and body weight.

https://m.facebook.com/paulcaleofficial/

Sorry you have to scroll down. I couldn't isolate the post.

 

[jobo]

Again, yes there is. However I’m not going to post up various videos and you just sit back and say one person isn’t bigger/ stronger than the other.

Which is why I said the best examples are from the competitive realm, because the weight, height, and general size are readily available.

it's a good job I didnt request it then, as not only are you not providing it, you pretending to be confused about the difference between weight and strengh

at least I hope for your sake your pretending

 

[Hanzou]

it's a good job I didnt request it then, as not only are you not providing it, you pretending to be confused about the difference between weight and strengh

at least I hope for your sake your pretending

Says the guy who is pretending not to know what “bigger, larger and stronger” means....

 

[jobo]

Says the guy who is pretending not to know what “bigger, larger and stronger” means....

I dont think I am, it's just I'm making a distinction between them, which you are not, though I'm not at all sure why your using both bigger and larger as they are exactly the same thing, unless you clarify them in some way

bigger/larger is fairly easy to identify by eye, stronger which isnt at all dependent on either is not, with out some objective measurement and even then the nature of the measurement can change that considerably, if you try comparing reps at press ups, with one rep max bench press, for instance are both reasonable measures of strengh

so in short your introducing an assumption that isnt being measured and not specifying how you would measure it if it was to be measured

in such a situation anything you say is effectivly meaningless

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Because a tool that drives a nail is, by definition, a hammer. May not be a sophisticated hammer, but is identified by its function, not its form.

This seems at odds with your contention elsewhere that a knife can't be a knife unless it's tempered...

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So after over 1000 replies, is it fair to call Aikido a martial art for self defense, or should we consider it more of a spiritual, internal exercise like Yoga or Tai Chi?

I’m leaning towards the latter. I feel that Aikido is too divorced from practicality to be considered a self defense method.

I'd argue it depends how it's trained. Most places I've seen, I'd be inclined to agree it's better aligned for the latter. Some it seems to dance the border between the two (and folks seemed to like it that way). I haven't personally been to any that seemed to really focus on fighting skills with some resistive training to work with, but some of the videos folks have shared suggest there are a few places that do really approach it that way.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Street fight where there is a clear size and weight difference, yes.

I mean, unless someone is having a coronary during the exchange, conditioning means little. Conditioning only really matters if we're talking about extended fights, which tends to happen more in competition than in street brawls.

What tends to happen in street fighting is people square off, they clinch, and they wrestle around. In those phases someone can get knocked out when they square off. The can get slammed to the pavement when they clinch. They can get taken down and grounded and pounded when they wrestle around, and everything in between. Those tend to be the phases of documented street fights, and they tend to be relatively quick affairs.

The relevant point here is that we never see a small Aikidoka tossing around a larger assailant. We don't see it in competition. We don't see it in exhibitions. We don't see it in street fights.

I'd only amend one part - I've seen it in exhibitions, fairly regularly. Aikido schools like to show off their smaller (and often female) practitioner tossing about the big guys. It looks quite cool. But like any demo, the question is whether that would happen with resistance.

 

[Steve]

This seems at odds with your contention elsewhere that a knife can't be a knife unless it's tempered...

A knife can't function as a knife unless it can keep an edge. And it's analogy. They aren't perfect.

The key difference being that in the former analogy, you are suggesting a knife like object is a knife because it looks like a knife. I'm saying it's not a knife (or a hammer) unless it functions as a knife (or a hammer). And that if it does function, it doesn't matter what it looks like.

It's consistent.

 

[Dirty Dog]

A knife can't function as a knife unless it can keep an edge. And it's analogy. They aren't perfect.

There are work hardened metals that could be turned into a blade without tempering. Either when they're forged or when they're ground. Unless you consider the heat of grinding tempering.
So agreed; analogies are not perfect.
However, untempered steel can still be worked into a knife. It won't be as GOOD, but it will certainly work. I've been bitten by many a blade prior to heat treating.
So maybe this analogy is less perfect than average.

 

[Steve]

A knife can't function as a knife unless it can keep an edge. And it's analogy. They aren't perfect.

There are work hardened metals that could be turned into a blade without tempering. Either when they're forged or when they're ground. Unless you consider the heat of grinding tempering.
So agreed; analogies are not perfect.
However, untempered steel can still be worked into a knife. It won't be as GOOD, but it will certainly work. I've been bitten by many a blade prior to heat treating.
So maybe this analogy is less perfect than average.

If you focus too much on nitpicking the analogy, and not enough on trying to understand the actual point, sure. The point being that aikido and other styles that train in a similar manner are martial-like.

 

[jobo]

If you focus too much on nitpicking the analogy, and not enough on trying to understand the actual point, sure. The point being that aikido and other styles that train in a similar manner are martial-like.

''martial like'' doesn't stand up to much rigor as the term martial art is very ill-defined and effectively meaningless as applied in this context, qualifying a term with no agreed definition by use of '' like'' only makes it more meaningless

 

[Hanzou]

I'd only amend one part - I've seen it in exhibitions, fairly regularly. Aikido schools like to show off their smaller (and often female) practitioner tossing about the big guys. It looks quite cool. But like any demo, the question is whether that would happen with resistance.

Yeah, the exhibitionions I’m talking about are full on contact demonstrations. An example would be the Gracie in action demonstrations. Not quite competitions, not quite street fighting.

 

[drop bear]

''martial like'' doesn't stand up to much rigor as the term martial art is very ill-defined and effectively meaningless as applied in this context, qualifying a term with no agreed definition by use of '' like'' only makes it more meaningless

And all of this is the reason we have the problems with martial arts that we have.

A martial art isn't validated by its terminology or how good the analogys are.

It either performs to its claims or it doesn't.

Rather than this focus on whatever metaphysical nonsense is being used here.

 

[jobo]

Yeah, the exhibitionions I’m talking about are full on contact demonstrations. An example would be the Gracie in action demonstrations. Not quite competitions, not quite street fighting.

exhibitions and demonstrations are not the same thing, you perhaps need to decided which totally arbitrary standard your insisting other need to comply with in order to gain you acceptance

 

[jobo]

And all of this is the reason we have the problems with martial arts that we have.

A martial art isn't validated by its terminology or how good the analogys are.

It either performs to its claims or it doesn't.

Rather than this focus on whatever metaphysical nonsense is being used here.

it seems to be an occupational hazard of indulging in conversation with mma people that you need to keep spelling out the obvious to them

but here i go again

a martial art can not perform, its not even a thing its a concept totally devoid of performance ability, it doesn't even know your talking to it when you give instructions

 

[Hanzou]

exhibitions and demonstrations are not the same thing, you perhaps need to decided which totally arbitrary standard your insisting other need to comply with in order to gain you acceptance

Exhibition-

2.
a display or demonstration of a particular skill.
"fields that have been plowed with a supreme exhibition of the farm worker's skills"

 

[jobo]

Exhibition-

2.
a display or demonstration of a particular skill.
"fields that have been plowed with a supreme exhibition of the farm worker's skills"

thats a children's dictionary, you do realise that just coz the definition contain a word, that doesn't mean that the two words are the same thing

it also contains the words supreme skill and fields

 

[Hanzou]

thats a children's dictionary,

Nope, it’s a standard dictionary.

 

[jobo]

Nope, it’s a standard dictionary.

there no such think as a standard dictionary as they are all different, which may have noticed if you had ether own one