Aikido.. The reality?

[Hanzou]

there no such think as a standard dictionary as they are all different, which may have noticed if you had ether own one

That response is so ironic on so many levels....

 

[drop bear]

it seems to be an occupational hazard of indulging in conversation with mma people that you need to keep spelling out the obvious to them

but here i go again

a martial art can not perform, its not even a thing its a concept totally devoid of performance ability, it doesn't even know your talking to it when you give instructions

Yours might have that issue. And so needs this run around to justify its existence.

Mine pretty much does what it claims in pretty clear terms.

 

[jobo]

Yours might have that issue. And so needs this run around to justify its existence.

Mine pretty much does what it claims in pretty clear terms.

what does it claim ?

 

[MadMartigan]

So 1k comments about aikido on this thread. It's clearly the most effectively polarizing art in existence.
As a TKD guy, with a BJJ blue belt, who has cross trained in Aikido, I've noticed several things. If your goal is quick, short term self defense gains, aikido is not optimal. The timing and small joint manipulation require a great deal of training to become effective. As a lifelong practice for some self defense skills, there is absolutely value.
All that said, I have absolutely used my (minor) aikido skills in the real world (leo). The understanding of standing wrist and elbow control has been very useful.
As I'm sure has been said by others (I'm not reading 50+ pages of comments) aikido's strength is surprise. Nothing works if the opponent know what move you're trying for and sits there resisting. The lock or throw (which is actually more likely to break or injure instead of actually throw anyone) works when the opponent is off balance or distracted.
For the BJJ guys: Consider trying to upa after telling your trained and resisting opponent that you're going for 1. It would never work. It works when you disguise the upa by trying for the elbow escape, then transitioning to the upa and catching them by... surprise (among other methods obviously).
As Forrest Gump would say, that's all I have to say about that.

 

[Hanzou]

So 1k comments about aikido on this thread. It's clearly the most effectively polarizing art in existence.
As a TKD guy, with a BJJ blue belt, who has cross trained in Aikido, I've noticed several things. If your goal is quick, short term self defense gains, aikido is not optimal. The timing and small joint manipulation require a great deal of training to become effective. As a lifelong practice for some self defense skills, there is absolutely value.
All that said, I have absolutely used my (minor) aikido skills in the real world (leo). The understanding of standing wrist and elbow control has been very useful.
As I'm sure has been said by others (I'm not reading 50+ pages of comments) aikido's strength is surprise. Nothing works if the opponent know what move you're trying for and sits there resisting. The lock or throw (which is actually more likely to break or injure instead of actually throw anyone) works when the opponent is off balance or distracted.
For the BJJ guys: Consider trying to upa after telling your trained and resisting opponent that you're going for 1. It would never work. It works when you disguise the upa by trying for the elbow escape, then transitioning to the upa and catching them by... surprise (among other methods obviously).
As Forrest Gump would say, that's all I have to say about that.

It's not so much "surprise" though, it's instances when what you're taught can be applied. The upa for example is highly applicable when someone is on top of you, and someone being on top of you is applicable to a variety of bad situations. Thus the upa is a highly effective and applicable technique.

Typically when LEOs tell me they used Aikido wristlocks, it comes from them already having control of the assailant, and thus able to apply a wrist lock for further compliance. They're not applying a wristlock via catching their opponent's hand and doing a series of spin moves as we see in Aikido demos.

 

[jobo]

It's not so much "surprise" though, it's instances when what you're taught can be applied. The upa for example is highly applicable when someone is on top of you, and someone being on top of you is applicable to a variety of bad situations. Thus the upa is a highly effective and applicable technique.

Typically when LEOs tell me they used Aikido wristlocks, it comes from them already having control of the assailant, and thus able to apply a wrist lock for further compliance. They're not applying a wristlock via catching their opponent's hand and doing a series of spin moves as we see in Aikido demos.

so your counter to someone using aikido in a law enforcement setting is it doesn't look like aikido in a non resistant demo setting ?

no probably not, no skirts for one,, but its still aikido and seemingly effective in use

 

[Hanzou]

so your counter to someone using aikido in a law enforcement setting is it doesn't look like aikido in a non resistant demo setting ?

no probably not, no skirts for one,, but its still aikido and seemingly effective in use

Yeah try again. What I'm saying is that they apply Aikido after the assailant is already restrained. In Bjj we call it position before submission.

 

[jobo]

Yeah try again. What I'm saying is that they apply Aikido after the assailant is already restrained. In Bjj we call it position before submission.

well that what you say completly anomonous sources have told you, as such its yet another of your opinions and not a fact,

and how did they over power them in the first place and why isnt this available to ordinary aikido practitioners

 

[Hanzou]

well that what you say completly anomonous sources have told you, as such its yet another of your opinions and not a fact,

and how did they over power them in the first place and why isnt this available to ordinary aikido practitioners

They're cops. Many people comply before they start acting stupid.

 

[jobo]

They're cops. Many people comply before they start acting stupid.

there still cops that are giving you anecdotes that your then turning into your own anecdotes and then presenting as factual,

so no, this has no bearing at all on reality

and you expressly used the term ''over powered, which you now decided to drop to compliance, that is clearly a contradiction meaning at least one of your anecdotes, though probably both are at best not at all accurate

 

[Hanzou]

there still cops that are giving you anecdotes that your then turning into your own anecdotes and then presenting as factual,

so no, this has no bearing at all on reality

Yes, and his anecdotes fits what I'm talking about.

Do you actually believe Aikidoka can fight like their demos?

 

[jobo]

Yes, and his anecdotes fits what I'm talking about.

Do you actually believe Aikidoka can fight like their demos?

which anecdote ?, you've given two contradictory versions and nether of them are supported by evidence, not even that these conversations even took place, your very reluctant to accept even first hand anecdotes as evidence, why do you feel people should accept your second hand anecdotes as such

no of course they dont look like a demonstration, real life seldom does

 

[MadMartigan]

They're cops. Many people comply before they start acting stupid.

While I hate discussing work, my hope is you will take a 1st hand account over internet click bait focused media commentary.
Yes. Many people comply rather than resist. We call those people compliant... meaning that NO force is required. Force (when used appropriately) is Only for resistant+ people... and no, my anecdote was not about wrist locking restrained individuals. I was referring to taking resistant individuals safely to the ground with a wrist lock, that can then be transitioned into safe restraint.
We all believe what we want. As my parents would say, "A man whose mind is changed against his will, is of the same opinion still".

 

[Gerry Seymour]

exhibitions and demonstrations are not the same thing, you perhaps need to decided which totally arbitrary standard your insisting other need to comply with in order to gain you acceptance

This is another area where there's a wide range of acceptable uses of the term. Hanzou and I probably picture different things when we use that term - not sure either is problematic, so long as we understand each other.

 

[Steve]

While I hate discussing work, my hope is you will take a 1st hand account over internet click bait focused media commentary.
Yes. Many people comply rather than resist. We call those people compliant... meaning that NO force is required. Force (when used appropriately) is Only for resistant+ people... and no, my anecdote was not about wrist locking restrained individuals. I was referring to taking resistant individuals safely to the ground with a wrist lock, that can then be transitioned into safe restraint.
We all believe what we want. As my parents would say, "A man whose mind is changed against his will, is of the same opinion still".

Not commenting on the use of force thing, though I sincerely appreciate that you added the aside, "when used appropriately."

But I am of the opinion that the lessons learned from being a cop have limited use to folks who are not cops (or at least, folks who are not professionally violent). The two situations are too different strategically and tactically. Does "aikido" work for a cop? Well, I don't know... maybe. But what doesn't work for a cop? I mean you're armed with a gun and a taser, maybe a tactical baton or a well trained dog, rolling with back-up, and the institutional authority to escalate quickly with relative impunity. Most folks who are learning Aikido aren't going to be so well supported in any kind of self defense situation.

 

[Steve]

This is another area where there's a wide range of acceptable uses of the term. Hanzou and I probably picture different things when we use that term - not sure either is problematic, so long as we understand each other.

Wait... when did we start talking about exhibitionists?

 

[Hanzou]

While I hate discussing work, my hope is you will take a 1st hand account over internet click bait focused media commentary.
Yes. Many people comply rather than resist. We call those people compliant... meaning that NO force is required. Force (when used appropriately) is Only for resistant+ people...

Yeah, I'm talking about situations like this where the person is compliant, and then something goes wrong and now you have to use force to control them;

As I said, in situations like this, the person is initially compliant with law enforcement, until something occurs when they're no longer complaint.

and no, my anecdote was not about wrist locking restrained individuals. I was referring to taking resistant individuals safely to the ground with a wrist lock, that can then be transitioned into safe restraint.
We all believe what we want. As my parents would say, "A man whose mind is changed against his will, is of the same opinion still".

That's good to know, since I wasn't talking about wrist locking restrained individuals either.

 

[jobo]

This is another area where there's a wide range of acceptable uses of the term. Hanzou and I probably picture different things when we use that term - not sure either is problematic, so long as we understand each other.

well you can demonstrate at an exhibition and exhibit at a demonstration which doesn't of course mean the words are always or even mostly or even ever interchangeable

English has a lot of words for a reason, that reason being that there are at least subtle differences between them

 

[Gerry Seymour]

well you can demonstrate at an exhibition and exhibit at a demonstration which doesn't of course mean the words are always or even mostly or even ever interchangeable

English has a lot of words for a reason, that reason being that there are at least subtle differences between them

And that the words are spelled differently doesn't mean they never overlap in meaning or usage.

 

[MadMartigan]

Most folks who are learning Aikido aren't going to be so well supported in any kind of self defense situation.

Ahh. Why didn't I see it before? That wrist lock worked in a dynamic situation because of institutional authority. Now don't I feel silly.
Haha. Never let the facts get in the way of a good argument when you know you're always right.

There is no one on earth that argues against BJJ being effective in many situations. Aikido is effective in fewer situations.
That is not a reason dismiss an entire skill set or art form. If you don't find personal value with it, don't study it. No one will twist your arm (see what I did there?) and make you learn aikido.

I have used BJJ skills and aikido skills in many situations. Both have value for me... it's not 1 or the other.