Aikido.. The reality?

[Urban Trekker]

Being "right" is not worth all the headache that I see people putting themselves through to that end. Sometimes to you gotta pretend that the other guy is your wife, and respond with an equivalent to "yes, dear."

 

[Gerry Seymour]

they cant possibly be average, as only a small % of the population do it, so really really not average at all

do you know what average means

On average, most folks are kinda average.

 

[jobo]

On average, most folks are kinda average.

On average, most folks are kinda average.

on average no, try finding even one average person, there like gold dust and the marketing companies want them badly

 

[JowGaWolf]

. If I give you a nail and no hammer,

If I give you a nail and no hammer and told you I would pay you a million dollars to nail it in a board, I bet you'll try hard and work it out. You'll get that nail in the board without a hammer.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Second, he was trained that cooperative randori is all you need, and that his techniques were too dangerous to spar with

I don't remember him sayng that his techniques were too dangerous to sparring with. If he didn't say that then you are making an excuse for him on something that he never claimed.

 

[Martial D]

I don't remember him sayng that his techniques were too dangerous to sparring with. If he didn't say that then you are making an excuse for him on something that he never claimed.

Well, it's clear you are either ignoring or don't understand the point I am making here.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Third, he did spar. And spar. And spar. And seeked out real skilled opponents, because unlike some, for him playfighting at low intensity and half speed wasn't enough.

I been in real street fights before so I'm satisfied with that experience.

 

[drop bear]

they cant possibly be average, as only a small % of the population do it, so really really not average at all

do you know what average means

Most of the population can do it. It is an average sample.

 

[jobo]

Most of the population can do it. It is an average sample.

there are two statement there and you can prove neither of them

 

[drop bear]

there are two statement there and you can prove neither of them

About as readily as you can prove your statements

 

[Steve]

Ah, so someone clarifying that you are wrong in something you say should just hush. But you can comment on something making incorrect statements, and that's cool.

Gotcha.

Good lord.

If I give you a nail and no hammer and told you I would pay you a million dollars to nail it in a board, I bet you'll try hard and work it out. You'll get that nail in the board without a hammer.

One could argue that you would invent a hammer. Because a tool that drives a nail is, by definition, a hammer. May not be a sophisticated hammer, but is identified by its function, not its form.

There is also the possibility that you cannot drive that nail, and that the more experience you have driving nails with a commercial hammer, the more likely it is that you will succeed in improvising a tool.

 

[Martial D]

Good lord.

One could argue that you would invent a hammer. Because a tool that drives a nail is, by definition, a hammer. May not be a sophisticated hammer, but is identified by its function, not its form.

There is also the possibility that you cannot drive that nail, and that the more experience you have driving nails with a commercial hammer, the more likely it is that you will succeed in improvising a tool.

Yet, this argument boils down to those that would just..get a hammer, and those that insist owning one is a waste of time because they heard that long ago there was a master carpenter that could drive in those nails with a stapler..so a stapler us all they need, and with enough practice with that stapler it's just as good if not better. The fact that nobody has seen it done or can do it today is irrelevant...

 

[Steve]

Yet, this argument boils down to those that would just..get a hammer, and those that insist owning one is a waste of time because they heard that long ago there was a master carpenter that could drive in those nails with a stapler..so a stapler us all they need, and with enough practice with that stapler it's just as good if not better. The fact that nobody has seen it done or can do it today is irrelevant...

Ha. Or someone who taught everyone to use plastic hammers on a fisher price toy. Imagining someone trying to use a plastic toy to drive a real nail recalling all of those discussions online where he insisted his plastic hammer was a real hammer.

at risk of beating this analogy to death, if you give a person a real hammer and a nail and tell them to make it happen and they could probably figure it out. Might not take long.

But would they be successful their first try? What if you said, "Drive it without bending it, and if you don't I'm going to beat you with this baseball bat?" Or what if the cost of failure was death? Because, I mean, if we are talking about fighting, the stakes for failure could be pretty high.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Good lord.

One could argue that you would invent a hammer. Because a tool that drives a nail is, by definition, a hammer. May not be a sophisticated hammer, but is identified by its function, not its form.

There is also the possibility that you cannot drive that nail, and that the more experience you have driving nails with a commercial hammer, the more likely it is that you will succeed in improvising a tool.

Either way, no matter what you use, you are the one who has to do it.

 

[jobo]

About as readily as you can prove your statements

so you cant prove them then, at least we agree

 

[jobo]

Good lord.

One could argue that you would invent a hammer. Because a tool that drives a nail is, by definition, a hammer. May not be a sophisticated hammer, but is identified by its function, not its form.

There is also the possibility that you cannot drive that nail, and that the more experience you have driving nails with a commercial hammer, the more likely it is that you will succeed in improvising a tool.

no, the act of knocking it in is a hammer, you are still however using your shoe to hammer

 

[Martial D]

Either way, no matter what you use, you are the one who has to do it.

I don't think anyone is arguing it doesn't take hard work and dedication to build real skills.

Yet we are built a certain way, move a certain way, and all deal with the same physics;so there will be optimal ways to spend your energy that will give you optimal results, right on down to ways that are so unoptimal no amount of effort will lead to these desired results. This is why good technique looks like good technique. There really is a best way to do everything.

There is no Canadian geometry.

 

[Hanzou]

So after over 1000 replies, is it fair to call Aikido a martial art for self defense, or should we consider it more of a spiritual, internal exercise like Yoga or Tai Chi?

I’m leaning towards the latter. I feel that Aikido is too divorced from practicality to be considered a self defense method.

 

[jobo]

So after over 1000 replies, is it fair to call Aikido a martial art for self defense, or should we consider it more of a spiritual, internal exercise like Yoga or Tai Chi?

I’m leaning towards the latter. I feel that Aikido is too divorced from practicality to be considered a self defense method.

well that would depend almost exclusively on who your defending against and their attributes as compared to yours,

its impossible, no matter how determined you are, and you do seem very determined to consider the effectivness of a ma in a bubble devoid of real world circumstance,

 

[Hanzou]

well that would depend almost exclusively on who your defending against and their attributes as compared to yours,

its impossible, no matter how determined you are, and you do seem very determined to consider the effectivness of a ma in a bubble devoid of real world circumstance,

It's not impossible at all. We see multiple examples of effectiveness in other arts. However, no concrete example of Aikido's effectiveness exists unless it's someone who is far larger and more powerful than their opponent forcing the techniques to work.