Aikido.. The reality?

[Shatteredzen]

I agree with this. I have no problem with Tai Chi for health or Tai Chi for fighting. I don't have any dislike for any martial arts that sheds the combat applications and turns into a healthy exercise. As a system it just needs to be honest about that. Tai Chi for health is very honest about as you see seniors take such classes to help improve and maintain their mobility. Some take it for stress. But it's honest about that aspect.

No one is going to take a Tai Chi for health class and assume that they can now fight. Maybe Aikido for Health is where the system is heading. If they are going to be functional then they will need to clean up a lot that the issues that the "Zen" crowd has put into Aikido.

Post war Aikido is supposed to be along the line of Tai Chi, the system itself is supposed to be practical and it is, depending on your perspective. There are not a lot of good schools and the modern work to unhinge it from its post war self and to update it to the times has not been done as a whole for the system. That's not to say its useless. I use the Aikido techniques of entering/blending, the footwork, the principles of momentum, etc and I've used the basic vanilla techniques in the real world and they work. Are they tight enough to take to the UFC? I think there's an argument to be made for a few of the techniques, not necessarily the wrist locks and not on its own.

People keep saying "combat applications", MMA is not a "combat application," its not combat, it doesn't even represent a real fight, its a duel, with rules under ideal conditions.

I've used Aikido as a police officer, as a Marine and in multiple scenarios against people attacking me with a weapon, yet here we have an argument between internet martial artists, many of whom are not going to ever armbar anything other than a bag of cheetoh's in their entire lives and somehow my martial art isn't real?

Somehow Rokas, making a video where his incentive is to bomb the technique, gets taken as an accurate reflection of an entire system and acts as a gold star on his school and quality of training? Nevermind the fact that he has since endorsed an Aikido school and said that he wants to go back and train Aikido now that he has a better foundation in fighting....

On a side note: You keep using the word "Zen", its a very specific word that is associated specifically with a form of Buddhism, you aren't using it correctly in the last few instances here.

 

[drop bear]

Lol, you picked the most touristy muay thai school I have ever seen. I will agree it is shiny and it looks nice, but WOW, this cracks me up. I learned Muay Thai in a dirt parking lot and a collection of tin sheds out in the jungle, seeing this bougie crap makes me giggle. You realize that school is made for tourists to come and buy shwag and do classes hungover a few times before they go home right? You understand that's absolutely not a muay thai school teaching and preparing muay thai fighters?

Subjectivity is not objectivity. Shiny and touristy vs a stable of elite guys. Means while it can be perceived as a mcdojo it really isn't.

PRO Fighters at TMT Archives - Tiger Muay Thai & MMA Training Camp, Phuket, Thailand

 

[Shatteredzen]

What personal anecdotes am I arguing with? Are you saying I'm the only person in the world who was attacked with a blunt weapon while lying on their back?

As for the clips I posted, you missed the point entirely. I linked the technique being taught, the technique being used in competition, and the technique being used in a street fight situation. The techniques were largely unchanged from point to point to point. That demonstrates the validity of the techniques in multiple environments. Bringing it back to an earlier point, that gives Omoplata and the Guillotine a foundation to base the successful application of the technique upon. You can expand those examples to most techniques in Bjj and MMA. We simply cannot do the same for Aikido.

You know what else is on youtube?

Guess what the street Omoplata is more likely to look like? Just because a Pro does it in the ring, doesn't mean you can, it doesn't mean that someone can apply it under stress.

 

[Hanzou]

People keep saying "combat applications", MMA is not a "combat application," its not combat, it doesn't even represent a real fight, its a duel, with rules under ideal conditions.

Except combat simply means a purposeful violent conflict meant to physically harm or kill the opposition. So yes, a MMA bout is an example of combat.

Guess what the street Omoplata is more likely to look like? Just because a Pro does it in the ring, doesn't mean you can, it doesn't mean that someone can apply it under stress.

Which is why I also posted a video of an ordinary person doing an Omoplata in a street fight. It looked just fine, and even ended up dislocating the assailant's shoulder.

 

[Shatteredzen]

Subjectivity is not objectivity. Shiny and touristy vs a stable of elite guys. Means while it can be perceived as a mcdojo it really isn't.

PRO Fighters at TMT Archives - Tiger Muay Thai & MMA Training Camp, Phuket, Thailand

It looks like a "nice" school, but it isn't producing Muay Thai fighters. Real schools in Thailand are usually all Thai, in some dudes shack and the kids, mostly orphans or kids from poor families, live there as full time students. The teacher/coach raises the kids and trains them, feeds them, clothes them and then the school takes the purse from each fight and gives the fighter a portion, if any. Real schools will almost always require you to fight to earn money to pay for your time, that's how I got my experience in Thailand. That method produces the actual Muay Thai fighters. These McMuayThai academies like the ones you linked are vacation resorts for bougie foreigners who want to show up whenever during their vacation. You can still get some decent training in, but its the difference between actual boot camp and some fitness boot camp afternoon class lol. It's great for Thailand and the economy, you can even pay extra to get a "pro fight" where they rent a match spot at a stadium while its closed, pay some bored D level fighter to spar with you and make it look good and you get a neat DVD of your fight as a pro Muay Thai kickboxer to take home with you.

Edit: it also doesn't look like a bad school. It would probably be a nice place to go get some reps in and sweat out the beer during vacation. It's just bad for your argument, its not the same level of training as a real gym.

 

[Shatteredzen]

Except combat simply means a purposeful violent conflict meant to physically harm or kill the opposition. So yes, a MMA bout is an example of combat.



Which is why I also posted a video of an ordinary person doing an Omoplata in a street fight. It looked just fine, and even ended up dislocating the assailant's shoulder.

No pal, if we were talking about combat, it would be totally different. Combat is trying to apply your BJJ while the other guy stabs you with a knife.

 

[drop bear]

It looks like a "nice" school, but it isn't producing Muay Thai fighters. Real schools in Thailand are usually all Thai, in some dudes shack and the kids, mostly orphans or kids from poor families, live there as full time students. The teacher/coach raises the kids and trains them, feeds them, clothes them and then the school takes the purse from each fight and gives the fighter a portion, if any. Real schools will almost always require you to fight to earn money to pay for your time, that's how I got my experience in Thailand. That method produces the actual Muay Thai fighters. These McMuayThai academies like the ones you linked are vacation resorts for bougie foreigners who want to show up whenever during their vacation. You can still get some decent training in, but its the difference between actual boot camp and some fitness boot camp afternoon class lol. It's great for Thailand and the economy, you can even pay extra to get a "pro fight" where they rent a match spot at a stadium while its closed, pay some bored D level fighter to spar with you and make it look good and you get a neat DVD of your fight as a pro Muay Thai kickboxer to take home with you.

They train world class athletes. Now yes there is definitely a vegi patch. But there is also the opportunity for top fighters to get world class training.

Just like a fight club might have a kids class.

 

[drop bear]

No pal, if we were talking about combat, it would be totally different. Combat is trying to apply your BJJ while the other guy stabs you with a knife.

Which is a strange example as almost nothing martial arty really works well against that.

 

[Shatteredzen]

They train world class athletes. Now yes there is definitely a vegi patch. But there is also the opportunity for top fighters to get world class training.

Just like a fight club might have a kids class.

Ok, I would absolutely grab a couple classes and some Bundys in a can during a trip, I'm not saying it doesn't look nice. It just aint Marlboro country. You can get very fit doing P90X, it will not make you a Navy Seal.

 

[drop bear]

Ok, I would absolutely grab a couple classes and some Bundys in a can during a trip, I'm not saying it doesn't look nice. It just aint Marlboro country. You can get very fit doing P90X, it will not make you a Navy Seal.

Yeah well BJJ is more of a navy seal thing anyway.

 

[Shatteredzen]

Which is a strange example as almost nothing martial arty really works well against that.

That's a standard part of ground fighting training in the military. Having a trainer blade concealed on one person going in or concealed is a training staple, I do the same with all of my students. If the other person scores a thrust to a lethal area you end the match. It works really well with markers also. "combat" is combat, its not two dudes punching each other in the ring, its cheap shots, knives, all the bad stuff, thats a different kind of training entirely. It's what I would recommend for good "pressure testing" to anyone, but it changes your outlook on a lot of this stuff. We wouldn't be having this stupid argument with Honzou if he understood words like synonym, combat and had some good training or experience to fall back on.

 

[Hanzou]

No pal, if we were talking about combat, it would be totally different. Combat is trying to apply your BJJ while the other guy stabs you with a knife.

So on one hand we have the actual meaning of the word, and we have your opinion of what you believe it means.

I know which one I’m going with.

 

[drop bear]

That's a standard part of ground fighting training in the military. Having a trainer blade concealed on one person going in or concealed is a training staple, I do the same with all of my students. If the other person scores a thrust to a lethal area you end the match. It works really well with markers also. "combat" is combat, its not two dudes punching each other in the ring, its cheap shots, knives, all the bad stuff, thats a different kind of training entirely. It's what I would recommend for good "pressure testing" to anyone, but it changes your outlook on a lot of this stuff. We wouldn't be having this stupid argument with Honzou if he understood words like synonym, combat and had some good training or experience to fall back on.

Yeah. We had a guy pull an imaginary knife on one of our white belts recently.

The issue I have is I could walk in to any gym. Pull out a rubber knife yell "I have a knife" and then "murder" the whole room and it is unlikely anyone would really be able to stop me.

Especially in any sort of secure the wrist strip the knife and win the day kind of way.

And look I have had real knife fights and come away successfully. But the whole process is super low percentage. It is never something I would say I can do.

 

[drop bear]

So on one hand we have the actual meaning of the word, and we have your opinion of what you believe it means.

I know which one I’m going with.

So we are moving in to weasel words again?

 

[Shatteredzen]

Yeah well BJJ is more of a navy seal thing anyway.

No, its a Jocko thing and between him and Rogan I'm sure its quite popular amongst the team guys but they don't actually (or never did) get hand to hand training. If they do, its new since about 2010 or so.

*anecdote warning*
My original sensei and I got a really cool day on the boat and BBQ'ing with Team 5 in Korea because they were birthed next to our tents and saw us doing our morning Escrima work out. We ended up training with them for the month or so they were camped next to us and taught them some Kali, sentry takedowns, even some Aikido stuff, I do remember some of them having some ground fighting knowledge from taking BJJ on their own though. To say thanks we got to go spend a day doing training on their small boats, firing from the boat at buoys and a bunch of other fun stuff and they barbecued for us too. They were very cool guys, who had no issues with the Aikido btw.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

"combat" is combat, its not two dudes punching each other in the ring,

Agree with you 100% there. Many valuable combat training is missing today such as:

- 2 person fight against each other. The 3rd person can attack either person.
- Dodge flying rocks.
- Hit and run mobility skill.
- Weapon fight.
- Knife throwing.
- ...

I still remember that we used to draw a small circle on the ground. One guy stayed in that circle. 4 other guys threw tennis balls at him. As far as I know, nobody has ever trained like that any more.

Today's combat is different from the combat that I used to know.

How many MA school still teach knife throwing?

 

[drop bear]

That's a standard part of ground fighting training in the military. Having a trainer blade concealed on one person going in or concealed is a training staple, I do the same with all of my students. If the other person scores a thrust to a lethal area you end the match. It works really well with markers also. "combat" is combat, its not two dudes punching each other in the ring, its cheap shots, knives, all the bad stuff, thats a different kind of training entirely. It's what I would recommend for good "pressure testing" to anyone, but it changes your outlook on a lot of this stuff. We wouldn't be having this stupid argument with Honzou if he understood words like synonym, combat and had some good training or experience to fall back on.

Sorry the second part of this is what combat is. On one hand we have super deadly encounters with ninjas and on the other we have drunken idiots with no training and no ticker.

And then we cherry pick this concept to confirm a bias that supports our training.

So there are knives in fights and we train knives. But there are no double gigs in fights so we don't worry about ground skills.

And then combat becomes what is called in advertising a weasel word. It sounds like something but doesn't mean anything.

Um.... on a shampoo bottle recently it had approved by mothers. So that kind of thing.

 

[Shatteredzen]

Yeah. We had a guy pull an imaginary knife on one of our white belts recently.

The issue I have is I could walk in to any gym. Pull out a rubber knife yell "I have a knife" and then "murder" the whole room and it is unlikely anyone would really be able to stop me.

Especially in any sort of secure the wrist strip the knife and win the day kind of way.

And look I have had real knife fights and come away successfully. But the whole process is super low percentage. It is never something I would say I can do.

You might be surprised, try it out with some markers, its fun and you get good training. Maybe try out an Aikido move or two if you do it and see how it works

 

[Shatteredzen]

Sorry the second part of this is what combat is. On one hand we have super deadly encounters with ninjas and on the other we have drunken idiots with no training and no ticker.

And then we cherry pick this concept to confirm a bias that supports our training.

So there are knives in fights and we train knives. But there are no double gigs in fights so we don't worry about ground skills.

And then combat becomes what is called in advertising a weasel word. It sounds like something but doesn't mean anything.

Um.... on a shampoo bottle recently it had approved by mothers. So that kind of thing.

Exactly, but that's been my point this whole time. Just because the Aikido doesn't work on Ninjas, doesn't mean it never works. It does not have to meet the Ninja standard to beat the drunk and the drunk is the only guy most people are ever going to fight. It's also one of the best situations for a technique that's less likely to cause actual damage. Drunks give up under pain compliance quite regularly, ninjas not so much.

 

[drop bear]

No, its a Jocko thing and between him and Rogan I'm sure its quite popular amongst the team guys but they don't actually (or never did) get hand to hand training. If they do, its new since about 2010 or so.

*anecdote warning*
My original sensei and I got a really cool day on the boat and BBQ'ing with Team 5 in Korea because they were birthed next to our tents and saw us doing our morning Escrima work out. We ended up training with them for the month or so they were camped next to us and taught them some Kali, sentry takedowns, even some Aikido stuff, I do remember some of them having some ground fighting knowledge from taking BJJ on their own though. To say thanks we got to go spend a day doing training on their small boats, firing from the boat at buoys and a bunch of other fun stuff and they barbecued for us too. They were very cool guys, who had no issues with the Aikido btw.

I have met the guy who does Australia. Paul Cale. Who is among other things (like a bjj black belt) an Aikido guy. But also again a huge man.

He also runs kudo which is a karate mma.

He does a hybrid combat sports system.

The McMap guy is pretty publicly a bjj guy.

And for me I would have suggested a sub wrestling or a folk wrestling would be better. But high quality BJJ is easy to find and easy to discern if it is any good. Because the objective testing is a lot easier. And consistently pretty good.

So I can see why large organisations tend to go with that method.

Again a whole bunch of this meta stuff that Aikido tends not to perform well in.

 

[Shatteredzen]

Yeah. We had a guy pull an imaginary knife on one of our white belts recently.

The issue I have is I could walk in to any gym. Pull out a rubber knife yell "I have a knife" and then "murder" the whole room and it is unlikely anyone would really be able to stop me.

Especially in any sort of secure the wrist strip the knife and win the day kind of way.

And look I have had real knife fights and come away successfully. But the whole process is super low percentage. It is never something I would say I can do.

You could do that in a lot of gyms, because most people are not going to be able to apply nearly as much as they think they can. This would be an amazing drill though, Im laughing just thinking about it.