Aikido.. The reality?

[drop bear]

Exactly, but that's been my point this whole time. Just because the Aikido doesn't work on Ninjas, doesn't mean it never works. It does not have to meet the Ninja standard to beat the drunk and the drunk is the only guy most people are ever going to fight. It's also one of the best situations for a technique that's less likely to cause actual damage. Drunks give up under pain compliance quite regularly, ninjas not so much.

No it kind of should if we are comparing it as a self defense system. The top Aikidokas should be able to clean house. And their top students should be able to clean house and then it will start to taper off depending on people's commitment levels and personal ability.

Because if you do fight a drunk. High level basics still work. The just work better. And if that drunk turns out to be a ninja you are not without resources to deal with that as well.

 

[Shatteredzen]

I have met the guy who does Australia. Paul Cale. Who is among other things (like a bjj black belt) an Aikido guy. But also again a huge man.

He does a hybrid combat sports system.

The McMap guy is pretty publicly a bjj guy.

And for me I would have suggested a sub wrestling or a folk wrestling would be better. But high quality BJJ is easy to find and easy to discern if it is any good. Because the objective testing is a lot easier. And consistently pretty good.

So I can see why large organisations tend to go with that method.

Again a whole bunch of this meta stuff that Aikido tends not to perform well in.

The MCMAP guy put the two Aikido wristlocks you hate into MCMAP, MCMAP uses a bunch of Aikido/Judo techniques and principles. The MCMAP disarms are Aikido. you are confusing me saying that Aikido is a viable system to study with "Aikido can do it all and win the UFC". I wouldn't recommend anyone study ANYTHING, without ALSO training BJJ. BJJ needs at least one other striking art to be effective, so take your pick, BJJ and Boxing, BJJ and MuayThai, etc, thats fine. Now can you take Aikido by itself and be fine in the scenarios a person is likely to find themselves in? Yep, same with BJJ. Most fights that people even get into are not what we are talking about. Any level of training is enough to stay safe and defend yourself in most "fights" against a drunk or whatever. To anyone interested in Aikido, I would recommend taking it alongside both Judo and BJJ and at least learning some boxing, that's the scenario where I will endorse it as being well rounded. That said, I've used the Aikido, it works. If something has saved me and others from being stabbed more than once, I call it a solid win and worth the training.

 

[Hanzou]

So we are moving in to weasel words again?

We’re moving to the actual meaning of words instead of what people think the words mean. Only way to have an honest discussion.

 

[Shatteredzen]

No it kind of should if we are comparing it as a self defense system. The top Aikidokas should be able to clean house. And their top students should be able to clean house and then it will start to taper off depending on people's commitment levels and personal ability.

Because if you do fight a drunk. High level basics still work. The just work better. And if that drunk turns out to be a ninja you are not without resources to deal with that as well.

Wrong, a BJJ black belt with no striking experience, much less a lower end BJJ student with no striking experience is going to suffer similar issues. We can watch almost any UFC undercard and find a guy or two who loses because he's got BJJ but no striking.

 

[drop bear]

The MCMAP guy put the two Aikido wristlocks you hate into MCMAP, MCMAP uses a bunch of Aikido/Judo techniques and principles. The MCMAP disarms are Aikido. you are confusing me saying that Aikido is a viable system to study with "Aikido can do it all and win the UFC". I wouldn't recommend anyone study ANYTHING, without ALSO training BJJ. BJJ needs at least one other striking art to be effective, so take your pick, BJJ and Boxing, BJJ and MuayThai, etc, thats fine. Now can you take Aikido by itself and be fine in the scenarios a person is likely to find themselves in? Yep, same with BJJ. Most fights that people even get into are not what we are talking about. Any level of training is enough to stay safe and defend yourself in most "fights" against a drunk or whatever. To anyone interested in Aikido, I would recommend taking it alongside both Judo and BJJ and at least learning some boxing, that's the scenario where I will endorse it as being well rounded. That said, I've used the Aikido, it works. If something has saved me and others from being stabbed more than once, I call it a solid win and worth the training.

Ok the problem that you have is that there are wrist locks in bjj and other submission wrestling systems.

And they work live.

Aikido would have to have better ones or otherwise there is no real point.

 

[Shatteredzen]

We’re moving to the actual meaning of words instead of what people think the words mean. Only way to have an honest discussion.

I'm sorry your strip mall BJJ dojo put "Combat MMA" in the title and got you so messed up. But I'd expect most MMA or even Boxers to laugh at you for mixing "combat" with sport fighting.

 

[JowGaWolf]

He trained to do Aikido for ten years or something. And at the end of that training he could not do the things he was told he would be able to do.

Based on one of his videos. It doesn't sound as if he was told that he would be able to fight with Aikido. From what he states in the video below, he talks about a lot of zen stuff and not about the application or function. He even says his teacher was the same way.

The way he speaks and carries himself would also suggest that they were never training with the focus of functional techniques for fighting.

 

[drop bear]

Wrong, a BJJ black belt with no striking experience, much less a lower end BJJ student with no striking experience is going to suffer similar issues. We can watch almost any UFC undercard and find a guy or two who loses because he's got BJJ but no striking.

That is also fine because we know. We can see that and make an honest judgement.

If you are garbage in a bjj gym. You will get constantly submitted. If you have no striking in MMA you get punched in the face.

You get honesty. Wich is vitality important feedback.

 

[Shatteredzen]

Ok the problem that you have is that there are wrist locks in bjj and other submission wrestling systems.

And they work live.

Aikido would have to have better ones or otherwise there is no real point.

No no, the Aikido wristlocks that you swear don't work. There's no stand up techniques in BJJ, those are Judo that are taught/included with the system so that you don't have to ask the opponent to start the fight like you would in rolling practice. Here's the problem with evaluating one system as a swiss army knife, none of them are.

 

[drop bear]

Based on one of his videos. It doesn't sound as if he was told that he would be able to fight with Aikido. From what he states in the video below, he talks about a lot of zen stuff and not about the application or function. He even says his teacher was the same way.

The way he speaks and carries himself would also suggest that they were never training with the focus of functional techniques for fighting.

It gets weaseled around. So you get told you can fight but then told you shouldn't want to. So therefore testing the fighting isn't enlightened. There is a whole bunch of misdirection untill 14 years later you look back and wonder what you have actually gained.

 

[Martial D]

No no, the Aikido wristlocks that you swear don't work. There's no stand up techniques in BJJ, those are Judo that are taught/included with the system so that you don't have to ask the opponent to start the fight like you would in rolling practice. Here's the problem with evaluating one system as a swiss army knife, none of them are.

Mma

 

[Shatteredzen]

That is also fine because we know. We can see that and make an honest judgement.

If you are garbage in a bjj gym. You will get constantly submitted. If you have no striking in MMA you get punched in the face.

You get honesty. Wich is vitality important feedback.

So why do you expect perfection from Aikido but not the same from BJJ? Anyone who tells you that you can just take Aikido and be good is lying or misinformed. I'm not arguing that. I'm simply arguing that the system does in fact work and add things which are unique to a fighters repetoire.

 

[Shatteredzen]

Mma

Is this a statement or question?

I thought you left...

 

[drop bear]

No no, the Aikido wristlocks that you swear don't work. There's no stand up techniques in BJJ, those are Judo that are taught/included with the system so that you don't have to ask the opponent to start the fight like you would in rolling practice. Here's the problem with evaluating one system as a swiss army knife, none of them are.

Yeah. But you still need a knife in your Swiss army knife.

Let's suggest you are right and BJJ doesn't have its own stand up.(which it does, look up John danaher)

Or that pretty much everything in judo you could do in wrestling (plus leg attacks that you can't do in Judo)

And say BJJ exclusively jumps guard and grapples off their buts.

At least we can see if that part works. We can even go to a BJJ open mat and test that it works.

So we have at least one tool in our Swiss army knife that is a real tool.

Rather than a Mabye tool that should work because Joe random assures me he did it in a street fight.

 

[drop bear]

So why do you expect perfection from Aikido but not the same from BJJ? Anyone who tells you that you can just take Aikido and be good is lying or misinformed. I'm not arguing that. I'm simply arguing that the system does in fact work and add things which are unique to a fighters repetoire.

I expect honesty in an Aikido gym.

And this isn't honesty.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=173308022725322

It isn't even good contact improvisation.

Even your BJJ fails compilation was better because it was honest.

 

[JowGaWolf]

giant peach on I-85 in South Carolina?

That peach is still up?

 

[Hanzou]

Wrong, a BJJ black belt with no striking experience, much less a lower end BJJ student with no striking experience is going to suffer similar issues. We can watch almost any UFC undercard and find a guy or two who loses because he's got BJJ but no striking.

Would that include Ryan Hall, Garry Tonnon, or McKenzie Dern who were all Bjj competitors who have great ground game and substandard striking, yet have strong MMA records?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Ok, I watched the two videos and I want my 13 minutes back.

Sorry no refunds on that one. lol

If he doesn’t understand a particular system, nobody has an obligation to explain it to him. If he doesn’t know how different schools or systems train, nobody needs to share it with him.

Pretty much. He wasn't like this until he discovered he couldn't use Aikido. Misery love company I guess.

 

[Hanzou]

I'm sorry your strip mall BJJ dojo put "Combat MMA" in the title and got you so messed up. But I'd expect most MMA or even Boxers to laugh at you for mixing "combat" with sport fighting.

I’m pretty sure those guys call what they do “combat sports”.

 

[Shatteredzen]

Yeah. But you still need a knife in your Swiss army knife.

Let's suggest you are right and BJJ doesn't have its own stand up.(which it does, look up John danaher)

Or that pretty much everything in judo you could do in wrestling (plus leg attacks that you can't do in Judo)

And say BJJ exclusively jumps guard and grapples off their buts.

At least we can see if that part works. We can even go to a BJJ open mat and test that it works.

So we have at least one tool in our Swiss army knife that is a real tool.

Rather than a Mabye tool that should work because Joe random assures me he did it in a street fight.

Ok, because we all know we need ground fighting, that means BJJ must go in the swiss army knife. No, BJJ has zero strikes and no standing techniques in it, there may be gyms that train those, but then we come back to the fact that I learned Aikido alongside BJJ and Judo among other stuff and am not advocating for it to be trained alone with the aim of becoming well rounded. So why does it bother you so badly that someone might want to train Aikido to add it to their tool kit? Pretty much every law enforcement or military agency has at least a few things from Aikido, like the first two wristlocks in MCMAP, because they work, because they have saved lives or filled a hole or niche that those systems wanted to teach.

On top of just the techniques, you have methods of movement, footwork and dealing with an attacker which you don't get from other systems or you would have to develop by cherry picking things out of multiple other systems. You are applying an unfair standard that can't be met and that the system was never intended for. Ueshiba's pre war students were competent fighters when they came to him. I'm a freaking instructor myself and I'm saying that its not the only thing that you should train, that is different than casting the aspersion that the system is worthless.