Aikido.. The reality?

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

So the idea would be for us to give Rokas an aikido test on an internet forum? We'd be listing the principles that we wish to test him on and he'd somehow demonstrate his intellectual understanding of the principles and his ability to apply them physically? That's his teacher's job.

My points were very simple.

Rokas said that aikido's shiho nage is flawed as it lacks the body connection principle, which he claims he found in wrestling but not in the aikido that he was taught. Then I found a video of his own teacher doing shiho nage and found that he was applying that principle.

Rokas said that aikido's irimi nage is flawed in the same way, as "no one taught him" the footwork and use of the hip to prevent backstepping. Then I found a video of his own teacher doing irimi nage that way. That's not a "fix", that's how the technique is done in the first place.

Redirect Notice

Aikido founder Morihei Ueshiba fixing irimi nage with wrestling.

So we can conclude that, in those two instances, Rokas is trying to fix flaws that don't originate from the method itself but from his own understanding of it.

It's not really a test. You guys are making claims about what he does not have, so we'd be asking him about it. The alternative is making judgments without letting him defend himself.

I don't really care all that much though. I was just skimming this thread and saw a request for his email address, which I happened to know. If you want to continue making assumptions about his understanding of the style, without asking him about his understanding of the style, that's fine by me.

 

[Hanzou]

oh so what Is the technique then?

You tell me, since you think it's Aikido. To me it's a wrestler 2 arming a guy's wrist and taking him to the ground. In short, it's the type of power move that big guys can pull off sometimes, and big grapplers pull off quite often. The problem is that Aikido makes people believe that little old ladies can do that against big guys, and that simply isn't reality.

BTW, when I asked you to show me Dan using Aikido, I want to see a systemized response, not one technique in isolation. Dan's style is what I like to call "Wrestle-Jutsu" where he essentially is combining Judo, Wrestling, and submission grappling. In that approach, he's learned how to throw someone, so it isn't hard for him to pull off a take down you might see in Aikido from time to time. However, it's important to note that that isn't Aikido he's doing, it's really "Wrestle-Jutsu".

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

At around 1:40

At 1.48, the "hand reverse" is a general MA wrist locking technique. It exists in many different MA systems. It's not unique in Aikido.

 

[drop bear]

Is it really?

Most martial arts train with the standard that you are fighting someone who is about the same size and height as you. When you throw jabs to the head in shadow boxing, the punches to the head is based on your height.

I don't see boxers shadow box as if they are fighting someone who is bigger than they are. Doesn't Boxing and MMA have a weight class?

Most martial arts are not trying to torque your wrist all the time.

You see guys who are successful at that. They are big guys.

Mma not only have a weight class but also a skill class. So yeah. It will work if the other guy is as skilled and as big and athletic as you are.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You see guys who are successful at that. They are big guys.

Are we talking about the "hand reverse" wrist lock? It has nothing to do with body size.

 

[drop bear]

It wouldn't matter since other martial arts teach you how to punch as well. But I can guarantee that you won't find a boxing school that teaches yo

My boxing coach does an excellent spinning punch combination.

 

[drop bear]

Are we talking about the "hand reverse" wrist lock? It has nothing to do with body size.

Really?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Really?

How much pressure can a big guy's wrist take? If a 100 lb guy put all his body weight behind his 'hand reverse" against a 200 lb guy, it should work as well.

 

[drop bear]

How much pressure can a big guy's wrist take? If a 100 lb guy put all his body weight behind his 'hand reverse" against a 200 lb guy, it should work as well.

You still have linkage issues.

Or find a small guy who can Aikido anyone.

 

[drop bear]

You can always email him

Or just check out his fight record on sherdog. I think the fight was legit. There is a pancrase match he lost by knee bar

On a guy that he had 20kg on.

This guy. I believe.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Or just check out his fight record on sherdog. I think the fight was legit. There is a pancrase match he lost by knee bar

We should not give all joint lock as Aikido credit. I have 0 Aikido training. But I pretty much know all the Aikido joint locking skill through my CMA training. My long fist teacher's teacher was a joint locking master.

The joint locking is a must training skill in my long fist system.

 

[drop bear]

We should not give all joint lock as Aikido credit. I have 0 Aikido training. But I pretty much know all the Aikido joint locking skill through my CMA training. My long fist teacher's teacher was a joint locking master.

The joint locking is a must training skill in my long fist system.

Aikidos approach to joint locking requires you to be bigger and stronger than the other guy.

I mean Mabye some of the catch wrestling versions not so much.

So this would be an entire body weight wrist lock that may work against a bigger opponent.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Most martial arts are not trying to torque your wrist all the time.

Depends on one's perspective on their value

You see guys who are successful at that. They are big guys.

Are they really big guys?

Did he just say that it looks Aikidoish?

People have to understand that Joint Locks by nature = Joint Destruction. So if you don't see many people using wrist locks then that's a good thing. Think about it. What happens if the BJJ practitioner doesn't tap out on a joint lock?

If you are training the wrist locks all the time, then it's wise to have a cooperative partner that won't accidentally destroy their own joints. You'll also need to have some control of applying and releasing the lock.

Something to understand this. Regardless of what people may think about TMA, TMA teachers are always talking about Control. They may not know how to do them but they understand the dangers of them. When you are fighting against an attacker you don't care about the control. The goal is to bust that wrist so that the hand is of no more use.

Many of the stuff found in TMA wasn't developed in order to be a sport. The fact that they have weapons makes it clear what the mindset is. I personally wouldn't want someone to apply an effective wrist lost on me 3 times a week for 10 + years. Eventually your wrist will be trash even if it doesn't break.

 

[JowGaWolf]

My boxing coach does an excellent spinning punch combination.

Your boxing coach teaches boxers how to kick and then throw a punch using the spin from the kick to power the punch?

 

[drop bear]

Your boxing coach teaches boxers how to kick and then throw a punch using the spin from the kick to power the punch?

No. He does a hook spin up behind the back number which is hilarious when it lands.

 

[drop bear]

If you are training the wrist locks all the time, then it's wise to have a cooperative partner that won't accidentally destroy their own joints. You'll also need to have some control of applying and releasing the lock.

Something to understand this. Regardless of what people may think about TMA, TMA teachers are always talking about Control. They may not know how to do them but they understand the dangers of them. When you are fighting against an attacker you don't care about the control. The goal is to bust that wrist so that the hand is of no more use.

I do train wristlocks all the time. Bjj wristlocks are not Aikido wristlocks. They rely more on securing the position and then applying body weight. Rather than just having gorilla hands and being able to overpower the other guy.

So this is how a bjj wristlock works.

And TMA weistlockers are some of the spazzyest wristlockers I have ever seen. Is is not very hard at all to find them unnecessarily jerkiing on submissions to compliant partners.



"People have to understand that Joint Locks by nature = Joint Destruction. So if you don't see many people using wrist locks then that's a good thing. Think about it. What happens if the BJJ practitioner doesn't tap out on a joint lock?"

I let the lock go and move on to something else.

Even that is covered in your video.

 

[JowGaWolf]

We should not give all joint lock as Aikido credit. I have 0 Aikido training. But I pretty much know all the Aikido joint locking skill through my CMA training. My long fist teacher's teacher was a joint locking master.

The joint locking is a must training skill in my long fist system.

I think it's important to point out a couple of things about 2 man sets in CMA. The sets often contains 4 possibility. The possibility that you are able to successfully apply a joint lock and the possibility that you aren't successful. The successful part is only played out to where the Joint lock can be applied. It isn't actually applied. You just get to that point where you could. Sort of like a bullet in the chamber but you don't pull the trigger.

The other 2 possibilities is from a defensive perspective. The possibility that someone will try to put you in a joint lock and the possibility that you escape/ counter.

The reason why these locks aren't practiced with full force and full resistance is because your body cannot take that type of damage day in and day out. The more a joint is damaged the weaker it will become.

 

[JowGaWolf]

And TMA weistlockers are some of the spazzyest wristlockers I have ever seen. Is is not very hard at all to find them unnecessarily jerkiing on submissions to compliant partners.

This I agree. I always watch how people respond to getting a wrist lock. Those who are getting the real thing will show anxiety and watchfulness on their face. Even if they trust the partner that look still comes to the face. The ones that you are talking about go in and out of them as if it's nothing. Also the ones who are actually applying the wrist locks are gentle in training with them.

I don't practice any types of locks with people who don't believe that they work, who jerk around during the application of a lock. I want my partner to be compliant when I'm at the point that I can apply the lock fully, then I want them to stop so I can safely release the lock. This also goes for me. If I'm complaint then don't take it as an opportunity to proceed with the lock. Sort of like if your sparring partner suddenly stops the struggle, don't take it as an opportunity to body slam him lol.

I let the lock go and move on to something else.

This is what makes a good training partner , but what would happen to the joint if you didn't let the lock go?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Or just check out his fight record on sherdog. I think the fight was legit. There is a pancrase match he lost by knee bar

On a guy that he had 20kg on.

This guy. I believe.

yeah just look up the stats. I'm not sure what's up with this "email someone" vibe going on. If I'm going to email someone it's not going to be about that. I would like to get more information than asking him how much someone weighed way back when.

 

[drop bear]

This I agree. I always watch how people respond to getting a wrist lock. Those who are getting the real thing will show anxiety and watchfulness on their face. Even if they trust the partner that look still comes to the face. The ones that you are talking about go in and out of them as if it's nothing. Also the ones who are actually applying the wrist locks are gentle in training with them.

I don't practice any types of locks with people who don't believe that they work, who jerk around during the application of a lock. I want my partner to be compliant when I'm at the point that I can apply the lock fully, then I want them to stop so I can safely release the lock. This also goes for me. If I'm complaint then don't take it as an opportunity to proceed with the lock. Sort of like if your sparring partner suddenly stops the struggle, don't take it as an opportunity to body slam him lol.

I figure 4 the arm or two on one Russian so they can't go anywhere. And then take about 5 or 10 seconds to set the lock in.

So they can't go anywhere. If they break out of the lock in that time I just take the back.