Aikido.. The reality?

[Mider]

I'm not talking about the ENTIRE video (where he randomly wristlocks dudes smaller than him), I'm talking about the MMA fight where he clearly uses wrestling to enable the entry that allowed him to pull off that takedown.

Saying that he was doing "Aikido" is similar in silliness to when Steven Segal claimed that he taught Anderson Silva a "special kick" that was really just a front kick that Silva obviously knew how to do already.

I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree then.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Does Aikido guy also train how to

- counter a joint lock?
- counter a counter?

Are there any video for that?

 

[drop bear]

Properly done, Aikido wrist locks shouldn’t require that, either. Body mechanics and structure are what does the work.

People say that. And yet Aikido wristlocks are done successfully by bigger guys.

 

[drop bear]

I don’t think most of the locks require you to be bigger or stronger, though if your opponent is bigger/stronger, you need a lot of positional/structural advantage.

Correct.

 

[drop bear]

That wouldn't fall into my definition of a lock. 5 or 10 seconds for a lock is a long time. If it takes 5 or 10 seconds then it's not locked. If someone escapes from a lock then it's not locked. People can escape before a lock or during a poorly implement one. The only other option is a release by the person applying it.

Locked is locked. Not halfway locked and not improperly locked. If 3 of 4 doors on my car then my car isn't locked.

It is a long time. And if you can do it. Then you know you have the technique.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I mean believing you can be as good drawing only from one guy from antiquities vision and solutions versus drawing from the whole of what fighting science has to offer. Limiting yourself to that and only that, in all scenarios and situations.

If your only goal is to be the best reflection of that man's vision, it makes sense. If your goal is to have the best skillset possible, it's a major self imposed handicap.

For those that do it with the latter goal in mind, it's just...weird.

If the goal is to have the best skillset, then I pretty much win with my ancient stuff. I can fight with a staff. That's a fighting skill set. Take those skill sets and I'll have a knife. Throw away all of that and use a gun then I still win against modern BJJ. So when you say "Best skillset possible" then BJJ wouldnt' be better than me with a gun. Or me with a staff.

Ancient people did more manual labor than people today so they would have been very strong. It would be difficult to be weak if this is your daily workday and this isn't even warrior training.

Science has helped us in with some areas but not all. Having science on your side doesn't make a person a good fighter by default. I'll pick the ancient spartan who has fought for his life multiple times in hand-to-hand combat over the best MMA fighter of today.

When you said loyalty. I'm thought you meant "blind loyalty." Where everything must stay the same and that new teachers can not add their experiences and improvements that they learned about the system. For example, If I learn another application for a Jow Ga techniques that makes it impossible to be taken down (extreme but needed for the example), but I don't use that technique because that's not what the original teachers taught then that I don't agree with. I say this because I use a punching technique as a grappling technique against a front kick. I've had success using it and it allows me to hook the kick and throw my opponent off balance onto the floor. To my knowledge no Jow Ga teacher that I know of teaches this technique. I'm not saying it it's new but for me, this is like a new Jow Ga application for that punching technique. I only say that it's new because I've don't know any Jow Ga teacher that teaches to use the punching technique in that way. I learned this by accident so it's not like a great mind at work. But for me. that's my application and my contribution to Jow Ga.

I also do sweeps from a high stance. Again Jow Ga doesn't teach this as far as I know of . I "developed it" through Jow Ga without any influence from any other system. I simply wanted to do a more mobile sweep that works well against a boxer's footwork. The end result was this sweep. I found that the lower sweep was too static for me. Even if the sweep is quick, it doesn't have the ability to pursue an opponent. The sweeps that I've developed allow me to use them to chase down an opponent tor to retreat if needed. It would be stupid for me to discard these simply because the old teachers didn't do it that way. I'm not like that and I don't think the founder would appreciate me finding away to use a technique in another way. Martial arts in general has never stayed still like that in terms of development. Does it make me a better fighter than the founder of Jow Ga. Heck no. For starters I don't even train like a fighter so how am I going to be better than someone who trained it and used it in a life and death situation. Jow Ga is the combination of 3 other martial arts systems, so for me not to continue to develop Jow Ga would be stupid considering how Jow Ga was created.

Literally the founder knew multiple martial arts and he took what he like the best in each, based on his ability to do them and created a hybrid system. If that's not development then I don't know what is.

 

[Martial D]

If the goal is to have the best skillset, then I pretty much win with my ancient stuff. I can fight with a staff. That's a fighting skill set. Take those skill sets and I'll have a knife. Throw away all of that and use a gun then I still win against modern BJJ. So when you say "Best skillset possible" then BJJ wouldnt' be better than me with a gun. Or me with a staff.

Ancient people did more manual labor than people today so they would have been very strong. It would be difficult to be weak if this is your daily workday and this isn't even warrior training.

Science has helped us in with some areas but not all. Having science on your side doesn't make a person a good fighter by default. I'll pick the ancient spartan who has fought for his life multiple times in hand-to-hand combat over the best MMA fighter of today.

When you said loyalty. I'm thought you meant "blind loyalty." Where everything must stay the same and that new teachers can not add their experiences and improvements that they learned about the system. For example, If I learn another application for a Jow Ga techniques that makes it impossible to be taken down (extreme but needed for the example), but I don't use that technique because that's not what the original teachers taught then that I don't agree with. I say this because I use a punching technique as a grappling technique against a front kick. I've had success using it and it allows me to hook the kick and throw my opponent off balance onto the floor. To my knowledge no Jow Ga teacher that I know of teaches this technique. I'm not saying it it's new but for me, this is like a new Jow Ga application for that punching technique. I only say that it's new because I've don't know any Jow Ga teacher that teaches to use the punching technique in that way. I learned this by accident so it's not like a great mind at work. But for me. that's my application and my contribution to Jow Ga.

I also do sweeps from a high stance. Again Jow Ga doesn't teach this as far as I know of . I "developed it" through Jow Ga without any influence from any other system. I simply wanted to do a more mobile sweep that works well against a boxer's footwork. The end result was this sweep. I found that the lower sweep was too static for me. Even if the sweep is quick, it doesn't have the ability to pursue an opponent. The sweeps that I've developed allow me to use them to chase down an opponent tor to retreat if needed. It would be stupid for me to discard these simply because the old teachers didn't do it that way. I'm not like that and I don't think the founder would appreciate me finding away to use a technique in another way. Martial arts in general has never stayed still like that in terms of development. Does it make me a better fighter than the founder of Jow Ga. Heck no. For starters I don't even train like a fighter so how am I going to be better than someone who trained it and used it in a life and death situation. Jow Ga is the combination of 3 other martial arts systems, so for me not to continue to develop Jow Ga would be stupid considering how Jow Ga was created.

Literally the founder knew multiple martial arts and he took what he like the best in each, based on his ability to do them and created a hybrid system. If that's not development then I don't know what is.

But still..if you compare everything that is in your system to everything that is available, you are left with a sliver of the pie. And if you compare the jow ga solution to any given problem or scenario to every other possible response offered by every other system how often will it come out as the most effective?

I would expect for every time it did that solution would become the meta for everyone that doesn't care about style or origin, but you don't see that in practice.

 

[Hanzou]

I don’t think most of the locks require you to be bigger or stronger, though if your opponent is bigger/stronger, you need a lot of positional/structural advantage.

Which is why in BJJ, smaller people tend to develop better technique overall than larger people. They really have to, because you simply can't outmuscle someone who is bigger and stronger than you. On the flip side, if you're a larger person, you will be using strength and weight even when you're training, it's unavoidable. When I rolled against women, I could just sit on them and impose my will, even if they were higher rank, because I had that innate advantage. What develops is that women (and smaller guys) become excellent escape artists to the point where you simply can't hold them down, and those escapes open up opportunities for them to submit you. It's a really interesting dynamic to see, and it's extremely frustrating to deal with as a larger grappler.

 

[Martial D]

Which is why in BJJ, smaller people tend to develop better technique overall than larger people. They really have to, because you simply can't outmuscle someone who is bigger and stronger than you. On the flip side, if you're a larger person, you will be using strength and weight even when you're training, it's unavoidable. When I rolled against women, I could just sit on them and impose my will, even if they were higher rank, because I had that innate advantage. What develops is that women (and smaller guys) become excellent escape artists to the point where you simply can't hold them down, and those escapes open up opportunities for them to submit you. It's a really interesting dynamic to see, and it's extremely frustrating to deal with as a larger grappler.

So much truth. For context I'm 6'4" and about 220 so that reflects my experience, but my fav guy to roll with was this dude that was (well still is but I haven't been training for a while) 6'7" and close to 300 pounds. He forced me to improve my subtle movements and technique in ways most people couldn't..and the fact he was also a brown belt (I never got past purple) didn't help. Out of our 50 or 60 rolls I got him twice, but he is probably more responsible for my technical game improving than any other one person.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

People say that. And yet Aikido wristlocks are done successfully by bigger guys.

Oh, being bigger definitely increases success rate, as you'd expect. It's just not necessary, technically speaking.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It is a long time. And if you can do it. Then you know you have the technique.

If you can hold it that long, you have broken their structure and have removed their ability to change their position. Without that, it can only be a transitional technique.

 

[drop bear]

Oh, being bigger definitely increases success rate, as you'd expect. It's just not necessary, technically speaking.

We really only see bigger guys hitting those techniques live though.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

But still..if you compare everything that is in your system to everything that is available, you are left with a sliver of the pie. And if you compare the jow ga solution to any given problem or scenario to every other possible response offered by every other system how often will it come out as the most effective?

I would expect for every time it did that solution would become the meta for everyone that doesn't care about style or origin, but you don't see that in practice.

While I agree with the concept, can we agree nobody has time to explore every available system, and most of us don’t have the time (within our priorities) to even explore everything system in our immediate area.

One advantage of a system is that it presents a set of ready-packaged solutions. If those solutions are valid, it’s a short path to finding that set of knowledge.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

We really only see bigger guys hitting those techniques live though.

Against a highly skilled opponent, a size advantage is probably necessary.

 

[JowGaWolf]

But still..if you compare everything that is in your system to everything that is available, you are left with a sliver of the pie.

1. Jow Ga has so much in the system that there is no way for me to know how to do everything in that system. As of such there's no way for me to tell you all the solutions that are available. I can only tell you the things I know.

2. A sliver of the pie is fine. It's the same thing that BJJ and everyone else ends up with. BJJ is a sliver of the pie when compared to what all of the systems offer. Bjj would have to do it all in order for it to be considered more than a sliver. BJJ doesn't do it all and as a result, it's only a sliver. Even though Jow Ga is made of 3 different systems it's still a sliver. I could add 3 systems of wrestling to it, and it would still be a sliver.

3. No person is going to be more than a sliver of all that's available.

And if you compare the jow ga solution to any given problem or scenario to every other possible response offered by every other system how often will it come out as the most effective?

I don't know because that all depends on the ability of the person using Jow Ga and the ability of the person that Jow Ga is facing. Are weapons involves, knives, swords, spears, staffs, canes, chains, chairs, sticks, or guns? Does the Jow Ga practitioner actually know how to use Jow Ga? Is this a sporting competition or a street fight? And before you say that the weapons thing isn't realistic. Then my answer to that is. Depends on where you live. Go to India and you'll see alot of fights with staffs. Go to the UK, you'll see knives. Go to Dominican republican and you get a chance to be attack with a machete. Go to the US and it's guns.

As for my skill level. I've never fought in an MMA competition so how will I even be able to tell you how well I would hold up in an MMA competition. Out of the entire Jow Ga community I have only seen 2 people use Jow Ga in sparring. I only know one person who says he successfully used it in a street fight. Other than that I don't know who else has used Jow Ga to fight with.

So how am I going to do a comparison in the way that you are asking? There's no solid answer for what you are asking.

 

[JowGaWolf]

nobody has time to explore every available system, and most of us don’t have the time (within our priorities) to even explore everything system in our immediate area.

No one has the time or the life span to explore everything in their own system. No one is going to completely learn everything and be functional with everything that is found in Karate, TKD, Jow Ga, Hung Ga, Judo, or even Boxing. People by default are going to take the techniques that they can use and leave off the techniques that they can't use. From there, those techniques will be personalized. Not every boxer uses the same footwork. Boxers have their own favorite defense, offense, and footwork. To the point that we talk about the footwork as Ali's footwork. Pacquiao's footwork, Tyson's footwork. Mayweather's Philly shell.

There's just too much out there in the Martial Arts world to think that it's possible that anyone is going to know more than a sliver.

 

[Martial D]

While I agree with the concept, can we agree nobody has time to explore every available system, and most of us don’t have the time (within our priorities) to even explore everything system in our immediate area.

One advantage of a system is that it presents a set of ready-packaged solutions. If those solutions are valid, it’s a short path to finding that set of knowledge.

No one person...no. but we aren't talking about one person. We are talking about everyone, as a whole..that actually tests their given style. When that happens, and a thing is super effective..others pick up on it and add it to their game because competition drives improvement.

Boxing . BJJ ..wrestling ..Thai..karate to some extent...

These styles weren't just picked out of a hat to be foundational to competition fighting. They became foundational because they provided the best solutions when compared with everything else that was tried and tested. Believe me, all the traditional guys were there too, their solutions just proved less useful.

 

[Steve]

No one person...no. but we aren't talking about one person. We are talking about everyone, as a whole..that actually tests their given style. When that happens, and a thing is super effective..others pick up on it and add it to their game because competition drives improvement.

Boxing . BJJ ..wrestling ..Thai..karate to some extent...

These styles weren't just picked out of a hat to be foundational to competition fighting. They became foundational because they provided the best solutions when compared with everything else that was tried and tested. Believe me, all the traditional guys were there too, their solutions just proved less useful.

Agreed.

And it works if we flip it around, too. Professional athletes are always looking for an edge. It is a profession in which being better than the next guy or gal is as much tactics as it is skill and technique.

Point is, there is no more open minded and receptive group of people than competitive mixed martial artists. If it works, it's in. And if it works regularly and reliably (even if it takes time to develop), it will be picked up rapidly by everyone. Because everyone is looking for a competitive advantage. Very pragmatic and open minded group, really.

 

[JowGaWolf]

We are talking about everyone, as a whole..that actually tests their given style. When that happens, and a thing is super effective..others pick up on it and add it to their game because competition drives improvement.

Not true. People don't pick up the system. They pick up techniques from the system and add the techniques, and that's totally different than training a system. For example, a BJJ practitioner may learn Muay Thai low leg kicks and leg checks. But that's not the system that's just 2 techniques from a system.

MMA is full of fighters who have added techniques from other systems but not the entire system. There's a difference between adding a technique and training a system.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

No one person...no. but we aren't talking about one person. We are talking about everyone, as a whole..that actually tests their given style. When that happens, and a thing is super effective..others pick up on it and add it to their game because competition drives improvement.

Boxing . BJJ ..wrestling ..Thai..karate to some extent...

These styles weren't just picked out of a hat to be foundational to competition fighting. They became foundational because they provided the best solutions when compared with everything else that was tried and tested. Believe me, all the traditional guys were there too, their solutions just proved less useful.

This has been a lot of my personal thought. I love training with and sparring againsts folks who are trained in something else, because they usually bring something worth learning, even if it's only something I want to learn against.