Aikido.. The reality?

[Hanzou]

The question was has anyone used Aikido in mma...the answer was yes by Dan the Wolfman. I think He knows a good deal of many arts including aikido he’s just not a black belt in aikido.

He did? I'd like to see the match footage if you don't mind.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I've got no clue. I'd have to read through like 8 pages of this thread and parse them to figure it out, otherwise I would have just emailed him directly. I'm on the same page as you-some of the stuff he's said seems pretty similar to stuff Gerry has said so not sure where exactly the distinction is. Hopefully @Gerry Seymour @Mider or @O'Malley can help with that.

Alternatively, we could also ask him to pop on here and talk to a few of us, I get the feeling he might be willing to visit a martial arts forum. Not sure the kind of welcome he'd get here though..

Not worth it. He's on his Journey to understand Aikido. That would be like me being on a Journey to understand Jow Ga. That idea within itself means there are significant gaps in one's knowledge. He made this clear when he went on his TMA bashing spree. The one thing he's transparent about is his knowledge gaps.

When he gets the mindset that he wants to be a good representation of Aikido function then he can be asked those questions.

Based on my kung fu experience. One doesn't truly understand the system they train until they are able to actually use it. Until then everything is going to be second hand knowledge with gaps. This is why I say I spar to learn.

This isn't a dig. It's the truth. It applies to me as well. There is no exception. This truth is part of the reason why I get bent out of shape when I see others not trying to use what they train.

I wouldn't ask Rokas anything about Aikido at this stage. Give him 5 years and he may have a reliable answer. But that's only if he continues to try to be functional with Aikido.

 

[Steve]

So the idea would be for us to give Rokas an aikido test on an internet forum? We'd be listing the principles that we wish to test him on and he'd somehow demonstrate his intellectual understanding of the principles and his ability to apply them physically? That's his teacher's job.

My points were very simple.

Rokas said that aikido's shiho nage is flawed as it lacks the body connection principle, which he claims he found in wrestling but not in the aikido that he was taught. Then I found a video of his own teacher doing shiho nage and found that he was applying that principle.

Rokas said that aikido's irimi nage is flawed in the same way, as "no one taught him" the footwork and use of the hip to prevent backstepping. Then I found a video of his own teacher doing irimi nage that way. That's not a "fix", that's how the technique is done in the first place.

Redirect Notice

Aikido founder Morihei Ueshiba fixing irimi nage with wrestling.

So we can conclude that, in those two instances, Rokas is trying to fix flaws that don't originate from the method itself but from his own understanding of it.

Alternatively, he may be talking about a lack of body connection tin aikido because it is only practiced on a superficial level. Whereas in wrestling, the skills are applied under pressure, so the body connection is actually internalized by the individual and not learned superficially.

I’m not saying this is absolutely correct. I’m saying, that’s how I took his comments, because that is a real difference.

Maybe the real observation is that we took his comments differently because we are either inclined or disinclined to presume he is competent. If we don’t like what he’s saying, and want to discredit him, we will interpret his statements as though he doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

However, if we start with the idea that he knows as much as an average aikidoka with roughly the same level of experience, it’s pretty obvious what he means. In my opinion, at least.

 

[Flying Crane]

So the idea would be for us to give Rokas an aikido test on an internet forum? We'd be listing the principles that we wish to test him on and he'd somehow demonstrate his intellectual understanding of the principles and his ability to apply them physically? That's his teacher's job. that way.

Yup, that is the level to which this discussion has sunk. Seriously, some of this debate is idiotic.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It wouldn't be Aikido, though, it would be a technique used in Aikdio, without the aiki development. I know of no short way to develop those body principles. So I can teach a hip throw to almost anyone, and it'll look like you'd expect (rather Judo-ish). But to teach them to do it with aiki principles requires a foundation of exercises that develop those.

So, while that'd be a valid test, it'd be testing not Aikido, but the technique.

I completely agree with this. This very statement is similar to what I tell people who tell me that I need to take BJJ. I always telling people, "Jow Ga has grappling. If I learn to BJJ then I'm not doing Jow Ga." Even if the the techniques are the same, the approaches to that technique may not be.

BJJ may do a hip throw in this order: Grapple -> Hip toss
Jow Ga has this order: Punch -> Grapple -> Grapple+Strike+Hip toss

People say "oh you should learn how to box, because boxing has the best punching skill set." But Boxing will never be able to teach someone how to jab and then follow up with a kick or knee. Or how to Jab, then quickly defend against a knee or single leg shoot. Same technique but different approaches.

This is how it is for a lot of techniques from jabs to kicks and everything in between. There are some things that are the same no matter what system it is and one can learn that because the approach is the same in all systems that use it.

I think if someone wants to truly understand Aikidio then they have to use it. If they take from other systems in order to patch it up then they really aren't doing Aikido. They can learn from other systems on how to do the technique, but the approach must remain Aikido.

I'm not painting when I pick up a crayon to help me keep the colors in the line.

 

[Mider]

He did? I'd like to see the match footage if you don't mind.

At around 1:40

 

[JowGaWolf]

Yup, that is the level to which this discussion has sunk. Seriously, some of this debate is idiotic.

Yeah. Especially when we have people here who train that system, but then we have people who don't train it, ignore the people who do.

I know that must be frustrating for them. Even the BJJ, MMA, and Karate people didn't try to tell Rokas what Aikido does and doesn't do. The most they did was to give him different perspectives on how a techniques works in their system or how they may try to work the type of technique that Rokas was showing.

I don't train Aikido so I'm definitely not going to try to tell someone what the principles of Aikido are. The only thing can tell are things that are set in stone. For example: A wrist must meets a certain structure requirement before it will lock. How you get there may very, but when it locks, it need to achieve that structure. That locking structure is the same in all systems. So from a body mechanics perspective one doesn't need to train the system to know if a wrist has achieved that locking structure. That's the easy part. How to get to that locking structure is usually where the debate is. Unless I train in that system, then there's no way I can say that the approach works or not. I can make assumptions and guess. But I won't be able to make statements like "That's not the system principle."

 

[Flying Crane]

I completely agree with this. This very statement is similar to what I tell people who tell me that I need to take BJJ. I always telling people, "Jow Ga has grappling. If I learn to BJJ then I'm not doing Jow Ga." Even if the the techniques are the same, the approaches to that technique may not be.

I think I’ll just tell them that they need to take white crane. I suggest you tell them that they need to take Jow Ga .

People say "oh you should learn how to box, because boxing has the best punching skill set."

Aaaand once again, “no, you should learn JowGa.” This idiotic “you need to learn XYZ because it is the best [meaning: it’s what I do, or it fits my vision of martial arts/sport/competition and I lack the sophistication to acknowledge anything that falls outside of my own narrow vision of how things work”] line of BS is just that: BS.

 

[Mider]

I completely agree with this. This very statement is similar to what I tell people who tell me that I need to take BJJ. I always telling people, "Jow Ga has grappling. If I learn to BJJ then I'm not doing Jow Ga." Even if the the techniques are the same, the approaches to that technique may not be.

BJJ may do a hip throw in this order: Grapple -> Hip toss
Jow Ga has this order: Punch -> Grapple -> Grapple+Strike+Hip toss

People say "oh you should learn how to box, because boxing has the best punching skill set." But Boxing will never be able to teach someone how to jab and then follow up with a kick or knee. Or how to Jab, then quickly defend against a knee or single leg shoot. Same technique but different approaches.

This is how it is for a lot of techniques from jabs to kicks and everything in between. There are some things that are the same no matter what system it is and one can learn that because the approach is the same in all systems that use it.

I think if someone wants to truly understand Aikidio then they have to use it. If they take from other systems in order to patch it up then they really aren't doing Aikido. They can learn from other systems on how to do the technique, but the approach must remain Aikido.

I'm not painting when I pick up a crayon to help me keep the colors in the line.

The issue with the martial arts community is they seem to think they know Everything these days.

More so their so called teachers act just as bad, what I don’t understand is why people gravitate to guys Rokas, Icy Mike, Ramsey Dewey who are no body in the MA community. Even the big names are guilty though like the Gracies

i once heard the Gracies say if you’re say attacked by a group...ask the group to fight you one on one. I’m sure they know better but their students will fight you over this silly stuff.

also there are other aikido masters one can refer to...Lenny Sly, Aikidoflow, martial arts 1on1

 

[JowGaWolf]

I think I’ll just tell them that they need to take white crane. I suggest you tell them that they need to take Jow Ga .

ha ha ha.. deal.

 

[Steve]

Seems like some folks woke up grumpy.

 

[Mider]

Seems like some folks woke up grumpy.

I’m sure you’ll interject your expertise Soon though.

 

[Steve]

The issue with the martial arts community is they seem to think they know Everything these days.

More so their so called teachers act just as bad, what I don’t understand is why people gravitate to guys Rokas, Icy Mike, Ramsey Dewey who are no body in the MA community. Even the big names are guilty though like the Gracies

i once heard the Gracies say if you’re say attacked by a group...ask the group to fight you one on one. I’m sure they know better but their students will fight you over this silly stuff.

also there are other aikido masters one can refer to...Lenny Sly, Aikidoflow, martial arts 1on1

I once heard a Gracie say you should add 6 tbs of baking soda to your buttermilk biscuits so they rise every time. Terrible advice. Don’t ask me to substantiate that statement.

 

[Flying Crane]

The issue with the martial arts community is they seem to think they know Everything these days.

More so their so called teachers act just as bad, what I don’t understand is why people gravitate to guys Rokas, Icy Mike, Ramsey Dewey who are no body in the MA community. Even the big names are guilty though like the Gracies

i once heard the Gracies say if you’re say attacked by a group...ask the group to fight you one on one. I’m sure they know better but their students will fight you over this silly stuff.

also there are other aikido masters one can refer to...Lenny Sly, Aikidoflow, martial arts 1on1

And it has become a zero-sum argument: If my stuff works, then your stuff cannot work.

Jeezuz, what a stupid mindset.

 

[Steve]

I’m sure you’ll interject your expertise Soon though.

I’m just trying to enjoy a discussion, learn a few things, and have a laugh along the way. I know a few things, but try not to let that get in the way.

 

[Mider]

I once heard a Gracie say you should add 6 tbs of baking soda to your buttermilk biscuits so they rise every time. Terrible advice. Don’t ask me to substantiate that statement.

I once heard Gene Lebell liked pizza and had to use the restroom...but don’t ask me, it’s possible He doesn’t use the restroom like the rest of us

 

[Steve]

And it has become a zero-sum argument: If my stuff works, then your stuff cannot work.

Jeezuz, what a stupid mindset.

Lol. What??

 

[Mider]

I’m just trying to enjoy a discussion, learn a few things, and have a laugh along the way. I know a few things, but try not to let that get in the way.

Also yeah the gracies couldn’t have lied, I mean it’s impossible to upload a YouTube vid then take it down later.

 

[Steve]

I once heard Gene Lebell liked pizza and had to use the restroom...but don’t ask me, it’s possible He doesn’t use the restroom like the rest of us

I heard that too.

 

[Steve]

Also yeah the gracies couldn’t have lied, I mean it’s impossible to upload a YouTube vid then take it down later.

Pretty much anything is possible. Which is why, if we can, it’s nice to be able to support statements with some evidence. Absent that, this is little more than a creative writing exercise. And don’t get me wrong, I love to write fiction. but I don’t think that’s what we’re trying to do here.