Aikido.. The reality?

[JowGaWolf]

The issue with the martial arts community is they seem to think they know Everything these days.

That's always the case. Nothing has changed about that and it doesn't matter what system a person trains. There will always be people like that. Joe Rogan can be seen taking this same attitude when he comments. One year kung fu doesn't work then someone does a simple kick "Oblique kick" and he sees it, and his whole perspective is changed.

People are just funny that way. They never seen a space alien before and some believe that. Yet tell them that you can kung fu and now they want visual evidence. Go figure.

In general the best mindset for a lot of what is done is "That is not the only way but just one way." I think the martial arts community would be better if people said this before they say what they are thinking.

I don’t understand is why people gravitate to guys Rokas, Icy Mike, Ramsey Dewey who are no body in the MA community.

Each is different. People go to them for different reasons. Rokas mainly because he called people out and he shared through video his quest to "Test Aikido"

I don't know Icy Mike. ha ha ha. but will check him out just because you said his name lol. But Ramsey Dewey is level headed about his comments and has a good radio voice.

In terms of people not being big names. I've learned more about fighting from people who would be seen as a "Nobody" in martial arts. I'm actually more cautious with the "big names" but that's just me.

But over all Google has made us all 30 minute experts, with no real world experience in the subject we are talking about. It's not always bad, sometimes you just need the correct info. But it doesn't work so well with martial arts because there's so many types, schools, and paths to shift through.

 

[Flying Crane]

That's always the case. Nothing has changed about that and it doesn't matter what system a person trains. There will always be people like that. Joe Rogan can be seen taking this same attitude when he comments. One year kung fu doesn't work then someone does a simple kick "Oblique kick" and he sees it, and his whole perspective is changed.

People are just funny that way. They never seen a space alien before and some believe that. Yet tell them that you can kung fu and now they want visual evidence. Go figure.

In general the best mindset for a lot of what is done is "That is not the only way but just one way." I think the martial arts community would be better if people said this before they say what they are thinking.


Each is different. People go to them for different reasons. Rokas mainly because he called people out and he shared through video his quest to "Test Aikido"

I don't know Icy Mike. ha ha ha. but will check him out just because you said his name lol. But Ramsey Dewey is level headed about his comments and has a good radio voice.

In terms of people not being big names. I've learned more about fighting from people who would be seen as a "Nobody" in martial arts. I'm actually more cautious with the "big names" but that's just me.

But over all Google has made us all 30 minute experts, with no real world experience in the subject we are talking about. It's not always bad, sometimes you just need the correct info. But it doesn't work so well with martial arts because there's so many types, schools, and paths to shift through.

Keep in mind: if it isn’t on YouTube, then it didn’t happen and does not exist. True gospel, that.

I guess I don’t ever take a poop. Go figure.

 

[JowGaWolf]

And it has become a zero-sum argument: If my stuff works, then your stuff cannot work.

Jeezuz, what a stupid mindset.

ha ha ha. yep and it happens so much that you can map out the ending.

Those who put down their own art go through a period of bashing it, then they get proof from the community that it works, then they go back to doing what they originally started out with, but with the understanding that they didn't know as much as they thought they did. Ego busted, Humility Achieved.

Those who don't believe go through patterns as well. They start off with , it doesn't work. Then they see someone get wrecked with that thing that doesn't work. They are surprised. They lose credibility. Ego busted, Humility Achieved.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Keep in mind: if it isn’t on YouTube, then it didn’t happen and does not exist. True gospel, that.

I guess I don’t ever take a poop. Go figure.

yeah that's a bad mindset as well. It's not a good trust builder to always ask for such evidence. If everything has to be "Show me on video" then it's just best not to train under that person. If the evidence is out there, the show it share it as a reference. Just don't demand it.

If I can't do it, If I don't know anyone that can do it, then it must not be possible. Is just not a healthy mindset. A bunch of things in this world exist simply because no one else was able to do it, until someone did.

 

[Flying Crane]

ha ha ha. yep and it happens so much that you can map out the ending.

Those who put down their own art go through a period of bashing it, then they get proof from the community that it works, then they go back to doing what they originally started out with, but with the understanding that they didn't know as much as they thought they did. Ego busted, Humility Achieved.

Those who don't believe go through patterns as well. They start off with , it doesn't work. Then they see someone get wrecked with that thing that doesn't work. They are surprised. They lose credibility. Ego busted, Humility Achieved.

I dunno. I think a lot of people are just sitting in their own silo and can’t see the forest for the trees. They see what they do, they like it (nothing wrong with that) and they see how it is effective within the context of how they engage. They come to believe that this is the only thing that matters and insist that their experience is the single yardstick against which all martial training must be measured. They cannot conceive of other approaches to training. They cannot conceive that other methods are also effective. They become idiots.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I dunno. I think a lot of people are just sitting in their own silo and can’t see the forest for the trees. They see what they do, they like it (nothing wrong with that) and they see how it is effective within the context of how they engage. They come to believe that this is the only thing that matters and insist that their experience is the single yardstick against which all martial training must be measured. They cannot conceive of other approaches to training. They cannot conceive that other methods are also effective. They become idiots.

Stop reading my mind lol

 

[Steve]

Stop reading my mind lol

Get a room, you two.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Alternatively, he may be talking about a lack of body connection tin aikido because it is only practiced on a superficial level. Whereas in wrestling, the skills are applied under pressure, so the body connection is actually internalized by the individual and not learned superficially.

I’m not saying this is absolutely correct. I’m saying, that’s how I took his comments, because that is a real difference.

Maybe the real observation is that we took his comments differently because we are either inclined or disinclined to presume he is competent. If we don’t like what he’s saying, and want to discredit him, we will interpret his statements as though he doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

However, if we start with the idea that he knows as much as an average aikidoka with roughly the same level of experience, it’s pretty obvious what he means. In my opinion, at least.

From what I've seen, I think it's likely he does have the common level of understanding. Because of the training method commonly used in Aikido (and what it lacks), it's easy for folks to miss some of the principles. Putting those principles under any kind of actual pressure (e.g., Judo-style randori) tends to show that quickly, which leads to improved understanding over time (which I think is your main point).

My initial inclination was that Rokas understood Aikido well, but lacked understanding of how it translates to application, because he'd only been exposed to the drills. And that he had what I consider an unrealistic expectation of what that training prepares him for (again, something less likely to happen with any exposure to pressure). I hadn't paid a lot of attention to his actual Aikido until this thread, and those comments he made surprised me.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I completely agree with this. This very statement is similar to what I tell people who tell me that I need to take BJJ. I always telling people, "Jow Ga has grappling. If I learn to BJJ then I'm not doing Jow Ga." Even if the the techniques are the same, the approaches to that technique may not be.

BJJ may do a hip throw in this order: Grapple -> Hip toss
Jow Ga has this order: Punch -> Grapple -> Grapple+Strike+Hip toss

People say "oh you should learn how to box, because boxing has the best punching skill set." But Boxing will never be able to teach someone how to jab and then follow up with a kick or knee. Or how to Jab, then quickly defend against a knee or single leg shoot. Same technique but different approaches.

This is how it is for a lot of techniques from jabs to kicks and everything in between. There are some things that are the same no matter what system it is and one can learn that because the approach is the same in all systems that use it.

I think if someone wants to truly understand Aikidio then they have to use it. If they take from other systems in order to patch it up then they really aren't doing Aikido. They can learn from other systems on how to do the technique, but the approach must remain Aikido.

I'm not painting when I pick up a crayon to help me keep the colors in the line.

Good points.

I will say that it's my experience that exposure to other systems can also clarify what we learn in our primary arts. Firstly, the overlap between systems (and there's always some) means you're getting some similar principles taught a different way. And then, where there are significant differences in the principles of two systems, exposure to those different principles often makes the primary art's principles clearer by contrast. And sometimes you just improve your foundation when you get into a different system, and that improvement benefits your primary art - for instance, if boxing footwork gives you a transition you didn't learn (whether it's there or not) in JG, and that transition fits well with JG principles.

That, of course, assumes competent instruction in each case.

 

[Martial D]

Am I the only one here that thinks system loyalty is just...strange?

I mean..I guess it depends on your goal.

Do you do martial arts to preserve the vision of someone that is long dead, that lived in a time where we knew much less about hand to hand combat than we know now?

To dispute this last part you would have to argue that martial arts don't advance and improve as a whole. That would be a tough one as all things that people do with any function improves over time. Don't believe me? Go light a torch in your drafty stone or mud house and read it yourself on a stone tablet..or hop in your model T Ford and drive to the library on a dirt road.

Anyway. ..I digress ..

Is your goal to preserve a system or become the best you can at any and all given aspects of martial arts.. whether it be punching, kicking, grappling, theory..anything.

At this point why would you not want to draw from everything available. To..as Bruce Lee said...keep what works and discard the rest.

And how do we know what that is? By putting ourselves in any given situation and trying everything...over and over...with a vast segment of martial artists across every possible discipline and style.

Now no one person can do this...but a large community can..and thus refine and learn and take the most effective things in every position and scenario and combine them.

And this has been being done now, in a mainstream sense, for almost 30 years, with millions of participants.

Yet, even now there are still those that would turn away from that and prefer to have faith the long centuries dead guy had it right and that's that. It actually boggles my mind.

 

[JowGaWolf]

That, of course, assumes competent instruction in each case.

If that instructor doesn't understand then a lot of strange things come out of it. I just finished looking at a new video that shows what happens when the principles aren't understood. A new system was created but it doesn't address the things that you mention and as a result, the outcome is not a good one.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Am I the only one here that thinks system loyalty is just...strange?

I mean..I guess it depends on your goal.

Do you do martial arts to preserve the vision of someone that is long dead, that lived in a time where we knew much less about hand to hand combat than we know now?

To dispute this last part you would have to argue that martial arts don't advance and improve as a whole. That would be a tough one as all things that people do with any function improves over time. Don't believe me? Go light a torch in your drafty stone or mud house and read it yourself on a stone tablet..or hop in your model T Ford and drive to the library on a dirt road.

Anyway. ..I digress ..

Is your goal to preserve a system or become the best you can at any and all given aspects of martial arts.. whether it be punching, kicking, grappling, theory..anything.

At this point why would you not want to draw from everything available. To..as Bruce Lee said...keep what works and discard the rest.

And how do we know what that is? By putting ourselves in any given situation and trying everything...over and over...with a vast segment of martial artists across every possible discipline and style.

Now no one person can do this...but a large community can..and thus refine and learn and take the most effective things in every position and scenario and combine them.

And this has been being done now, in a mainstream sense, for almost 30 years, with millions of participants.

Yet, even now there are still those that would turn away from that and prefer to have faith the long centuries dead guy had it right and that's that. It actually boggles my mind.

I think there's a middle ground between these two approaches, but I'm not as flummoxed as you by those who want to work within the art they've chosen, though training a single art to the exclusion of other exposure just doesn't make sense to me.

So, firstly, I think there are a lot of us who aren't really concerned about being the best possible fighter we can. We want to develop some skill in that area (for those of us who have that interest), and to do something we find interesting. For me, I enjoy the challenge of working within my primary art. There's a reason I've continued to explore that art for more than 30 years, and I suspect others have similar reactions. I like trying to improve the delivery of my primary art, because I see things that can be improved in that delivery. Sure, I could just dump the art and do an art-agnostic system of some sort, but I have this foundation already there. I do my best teaching within this structure, because it's what I have the most tools for. So I stick with it.

I wholly agree with your point about having too much faith in individual instructors (be they founders or whatnot). They were all humans, and all were limited by what they knew at the time (which in many cases included flawed societal knowledge).

 

[JowGaWolf]

Am I the only one here that thinks system loyalty is just...strange?

I would have to say you must first describe what you mean by system loyalty. Is it system loyalty if you only want to learn how to paint, but don't want to learn how to take photos?

Is it system loyalty to only want to be a baseball coach and not a football coach?

This how I think of martial arts and the development of a system.
A martial arts starts off at the beginning looking like this.

Because people where only interest in doing this and not taking from another system like " Cycling" Bmx trick developed into this

Now. The question is. Would BMX tricks be where they are today if they decided to use this bike instead?

You have to have enough loyalty to a system that you stay in it long enough to develop it.

Do you think Raymond Daniels would be as good with the system he trains, if he is always running to another system for something easy, when things in his system gets difficult to do? You have to have some kind of loyalty.

 

[drop bear]

At around 1:40

Aikido is an art for bigger guys.

The fight might be one of those Bart Vale wwe scripted style fights.

Anyway. I think this is the wolfman. But he was up against a militech gym guy. So.....

 

[drop bear]

Do you think Raymond Daniels would be as good with the system he trains, if he is always running to another system for something easy, when things in his system gets difficult to do? You have to have some kind of loyalty.

Because you don't think Raymond Daniels wouldn't have a boxing coach or a wrestling coach or do sessions at tiger?

(I also don't know if he does or not. Going to look now)

 

[Hanzou]

At around 1:40

Ah, so we're doing the "one technique that vaguely represents martial art X" routine. I should have guessed.

 

[Mider]

Ah, so we're doing the "one technique that vaguely represents martial art X" routine. I should have guessed.

oh so what Is the technique then?

 

[Mider]

Aikido is an art for bigger guys.

The fight might be one of those Bart Vale wwe scripted style fights.

Anyway. I think this is the wolfman. But he was up against a militech gym guy. So.....

You can always email him

 

[JowGaWolf]

Aikido is an art for bigger guys.

Is it really?

Most martial arts train with the standard that you are fighting someone who is about the same size and height as you. When you throw jabs to the head in shadow boxing, the punches to the head is based on your height.

I don't see boxers shadow box as if they are fighting someone who is bigger than they are. Doesn't Boxing and MMA have a weight class?

Because you don't think Raymond Daniels wouldn't have a boxing coach or a wrestling coach or do sessions at tiger?

(I also don't know if he does or not. Going to look now)

It wouldn't matter since other martial arts teach you how to punch as well. But I can guarantee that you won't find a boxing school that teaches you to punch coming out of a spin.

You may not be familiar with him, but he's known for his kicking and not his punching. You'll find more KO's from his kicks than his punches

Most of his martial arts training was this. This is where his journey started. You can also see him punch as he's coming out of the kick. That's something you'll never get out of a Boxing Gym. Raymond Daniels is TMA.

I don't care much for the personality he displays. It could be all hype and not real. But even if it's real, I can't deny his skills. The same stuff he was tagging people with back then is almost the same medicine he's been tagging MMA fighters with.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You can always email him

I wouldn't waste Dan's time with such questions. He's already commented plenty of times on the topic of Aikido.

I would caution asking other martial artist to chime in on any debate happening here in Martial Talk. I've yet to see very many things that would be worth the time for someone to come in for the purpose of "settling disagreements."

There's nothing wrong with asking questions for the sake of knowledge but for the purpose of settling a disagreement doesn't sit well with a lot of people. As a martial artist, I just wouldn't get into that.

Just my two cents on this. Asking Dan questions about this will probably result in Dan sending you this link and then following up with a statement "Grow up"

A lot of what he says here reflects the same thing about what I was saying about asking Rokas and his "Journey"

I now know who ICY Mike is ha ha ha. I've seen his videos. I never knew that was ICY Mike ha ha ha. I guess that says a lot about to watch a video and not know who I'm watching lol.

I didn't know there was this Martial Arts beef going on between them ha ha ha.

He has beef with the Karate Nerd Jesse.. Nooooo ha ha ha.