Aikido.. The reality?

[Mider]

At 1.48, the "hand reverse" is a general MA wrist locking technique. It exists in many different MA systems. It's not unique in Aikido.

Well I guess you can ask Dan the wolfman he said it was aikido...

 

[Mider]

You tell me, since you think it's Aikido. To me it's a wrestler 2 arming a guy's wrist and taking him to the ground. In short, it's the type of power move that big guys can pull off sometimes, and big grapplers pull off quite often. The problem is that Aikido makes people believe that little old ladies can do that against big guys, and that simply isn't reality.

BTW, when I asked you to show me Dan using Aikido, I want to see a systemized response, not one technique in isolation. Dan's style is what I like to call "Wrestle-Jutsu" where he essentially is combining Judo, Wrestling, and submission grappling. In that approach, he's learned how to throw someone, so it isn't hard for him to pull off a take down you might see in Aikido from time to time. However, it's important to note that that isn't Aikido he's doing, it's really "Wrestle-Jutsu".

Oh I guess Dan 8s lying then...lol wtf

Um the whole video is him using aikido...lmao. So now you’re telling him what style he uses ok.

you can always ask him bro, you know more about what he does then him obviously

 

[Mider]

I wouldn't waste Dan's time with such questions. He's already commented plenty of times on the topic of Aikido.

I would caution asking other martial artist to chime in on any debate happening here in Martial Talk. I've yet to see very many things that would be worth the time for someone to come in for the purpose of "settling disagreements."

There's nothing wrong with asking questions for the sake of knowledge but for the purpose of settling a disagreement doesn't sit well with a lot of people. As a martial artist, I just wouldn't get into that.

Just my two cents on this. Asking Dan questions about this will probably result in Dan sending you this link and then following up with a statement "Grow up"

A lot of what he says here reflects the same thing about what I was saying about asking Rokas and his "Journey"

I now know who ICY Mike is ha ha ha. I've seen his videos. I never knew that was ICY Mike ha ha ha. I guess that says a lot about to watch a video and not know who I'm watching lol.

I didn't know there was this Martial Arts beef going on between them ha ha ha.

He has beef with the Karate Nerd Jesse.. Nooooo ha ha ha.

People here are saying it’s not aikido n that he’s lying so they must know more about his life then him.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I figure 4 the arm or two on one Russian so they can't go anywhere. And then take about 5 or 10 seconds to set the lock in.

So they can't go anywhere. If they break out of the lock in that time I just take the back.

That wouldn't fall into my definition of a lock. 5 or 10 seconds for a lock is a long time. If it takes 5 or 10 seconds then it's not locked. If someone escapes from a lock then it's not locked. People can escape before a lock or during a poorly implement one. The only other option is a release by the person applying it.

Locked is locked. Not halfway locked and not improperly locked. If 3 of 4 doors on my car then my car isn't locked.

 

[JowGaWolf]

People here are saying it’s not aikido n that he’s lying so they must know more about his life then him.

Yeah I think much of that is coming from the Aikido crowd unfortunately. Probably from Rokas' "camp" I think Rokas was offended in the Interview that he did with Dan. Dan may have said somethings that indirectly put Rokas in the same group. When you watch the interview you can see the look on Rokas' face and you can tell that he doesn't like what he's saying.

It's all too much drama for me. I'm just glad I don't have to personally deal with stuff like that in my life.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Most martial arts are not trying to torque your wrist all the time.

You see guys who are successful at that. They are big guys.

Mma not only have a weight class but also a skill class. So yeah. It will work if the other guy is as skilled and as big and athletic as you are.

I do think being bigger is an advantage, even with proper aiki. Perhaps especially so. If nothing else, the mass makes some of the principles easier to apply and more reliable.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

How much pressure can a big guy's wrist take? If a 100 lb guy put all his body weight behind his 'hand reverse" against a 200 lb guy, it should work as well.

Bigger arms will take more pressure to activate. And bigger bodies deliver more pressure more easily.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Aikidos approach to joint locking requires you to be bigger and stronger than the other guy.

I mean Mabye some of the catch wrestling versions not so much.

So this would be an entire body weight wrist lock that may work against a bigger opponent.

I don’t think most of the locks require you to be bigger or stronger, though if your opponent is bigger/stronger, you need a lot of positional/structural advantage.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I do train wristlocks all the time. Bjj wristlocks are not Aikido wristlocks. They rely more on securing the position and then applying body weight. Rather than just having gorilla hands and being able to overpower the other guy.

So this is how a bjj wristlock works.

And TMA weistlockers are some of the spazzyest wristlockers I have ever seen. Is is not very hard at all to find them unnecessarily jerkiing on submissions to compliant partners.



"People have to understand that Joint Locks by nature = Joint Destruction. So if you don't see many people using wrist locks then that's a good thing. Think about it. What happens if the BJJ practitioner doesn't tap out on a joint lock?"

I let the lock go and move on to something else.

Even that is covered in your video.

Properly done, Aikido wrist locks shouldn’t require that, either. Body mechanics and structure are what does the work.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I don’t think most of the locks require you to be bigger or stronger, though if your opponent is bigger/stronger, you need a lot of positional/structural advantage.

Bigger isn't as important as stronger grip strength. None of this is happening with weak hands. A bigger person gains no advantage on a wrist lock if their hands do not have the strength to perform the lock.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Bigger isn't as important as stronger grip strength. None of this is happening with weak hands. A bigger person gains no advantage on a wrist lock if their hands do not have the strength to perform the lock.

Mostly true. Their greater mass does give them advantages, even if there’s no additional hand strength. The advantage comes in using that mass to affect their structure.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Properly done, Aikido wrist locks shouldn’t require that, either. Body mechanics and structure are what does the work.

This is the strength training for CMA Joint locks . Key phrase "none of these skills can be effective if you cannot grab your opponent." @35 mark

Joints in the wrist and fingers can't take a heavy load, especially if the muscle in the hands are not developed so that they can resist the pressure more before failing.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The advantage comes in using that mass to affect their structure.

yeah but if you don't know how to do this then the size won't matter. BJJ has already proven this. If their hands are weak then they won't have the strength to maintain their structure or apply it.

Edit: other than just being heavier, taller, or wider a finger is a finger a wrist is a wrist. Unless the size comes with more muscle. I say this because I do an exercise with my staff for twisting power in Chin na, and I've had people who were taller and bigger than me but unable to do this exercise. They even made comments that their wrist hurt because they lack the muscle to maintain their wrist structure.

 

[Martial D]

I would have to say you must first describe what you mean by system loyalty.

I mean believing you can be as good drawing only from one guy from antiquities vision and solutions versus drawing from the whole of what fighting science has to offer. Limiting yourself to that and only that, in all scenarios and situations.

If your only goal is to be the best reflection of that man's vision, it makes sense. If your goal is to have the best skillset possible, it's a major self imposed handicap.

For those that do it with the latter goal in mind, it's just...weird.

 

[Martial D]

yeah but if you don't know how to do this then the size won't matter. BJJ has already proven this. If their hands are weak then they won't have the strength to maintain their structure or apply it.

Oh. Size and strength is a huge thing in BJJ too. I've seen people that are just unnaturally strong or big or both ragdoll belted BJJ guys just by being spazzy and strong. In addition if all else is equal the stronger guy still usually wins in grappling and the bigger guy in striking.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

yeah but if you don't know how to do this then the size won't matter. BJJ has already proven this. If their hands are weak then they won't have the strength to maintain their structure or apply it.

Edit: other than just being heavier, taller, or wider a finger is a finger a wrist is a wrist. Unless the size comes with more muscle. I say this because I do an exercise with my staff for twisting power in Chin na, and I've had people who were taller and bigger than me but unable to do this exercise. They even made comments that their wrist hurt because they lack the muscle to maintain their wrist structure.

Oh, technique and strength definitely matter. And mass does, too. All else being equal, a bigger guy has a significantly easier time with some aspects of locking.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Most martial arts are not trying to torque your wrist all the time.

Old CMA saying said, "A bad punch is still better than a good lock".

If you break someone's wrist, he can still pull out a gun and shot you. If you knock your opponent out, you can walk away safely.

IMO, the joint lock cannot be considered as "finish move". non-finish move may have sport value, but it has little combat value.

The best opponent is the opponent who is unconscious under your knees.

 

[Mider]

Strength is always important

 

[Hanzou]

Oh I guess Dan 8s lying then...lol wtf

Um the whole video is him using aikido...lmao. So now you’re telling him what style he uses ok.

you can always ask him bro, you know more about what he does then him obviously

I'm not talking about the ENTIRE video (where he randomly wristlocks dudes smaller than him), I'm talking about the MMA fight where he clearly uses wrestling to enable the entry that allowed him to pull off that takedown.

Saying that he was doing "Aikido" is similar in silliness to when Steven Segal claimed that he taught Anderson Silva a "special kick" that was really just a front kick that Silva obviously knew how to do already.

 

[Hanzou]

Oh. Size and strength is a huge thing in BJJ too. I've seen people that are just unnaturally strong or big or both ragdoll belted BJJ guys just by being spazzy and strong. In addition if all else is equal the stronger guy still usually wins in grappling and the bigger guy in striking.

I feel bad when I bench press smaller people off of me when I'm under side control.