Aikido.. The reality?

[Mider]

I think my point was that I have heard of Gene LeBell, the judoka. I have never heard of Gene LeBell, the aikidoka. My request was that you help a guy out by giving me some additional background on his connect to aikido, rather than making unsubstantiated claims and then getting defensive when asked about it.

My other point is that I don't agree that learning a move means you've learned an art, and think you have it all backwards. The question is, if you throw an elbow, does that mean you are trained in Muay Thai? I think we can all agree that the answer is obviously not.

My last point is, BJJ works because it's not dogmatic. BJJ guys win all the time, too.

You seem defensive.

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What unsubstantiated claim did I make, lol I said what someone who learned under him said. Dan the Wolfman is a black belt under Gokor, Gene Lebell top student, but again you must resort to moving the goal Post. Well I never heard he did Aikido it must be false...lol

it’s still a must thai elbow, an aikido lock is still an aikido lock...you changed the subject because you said well ive never seen it used in mma, so I said it’s not allowed in mma.

of course its dogmatic, the gravies and many BJJ black belts think BJJ is the ultimate art and have said some pretty stupid things IMO.

im not defensive I’m just wondering why you’re saying baseless and irrelevant things.

 

[Mider]

Hey, I'll on record as a cuddly, old guy well past my prime. My shoulders are shot, and I'm much happier baking and building things than fighting anymore. But this is a discussion forum, and hopefully we're not looking to scrap with each other here. That just seems unnecessary.

Then why would I listen to your opinion on martial arts?

 

[Martial D]

This thread is the religiousforums.com of martial talk. It makes me giggle.

 

[drop bear]

Yes, I read that from the earlier posts. Something one of you wrote about how he doesn't follow basic aiki principles, among other things. Which is why Steve offered to email him asking him about said principles to see if he does know of them/why he doesn't appear to demonstrate them in his videos.

I think this is an easy call to make and a really tough one to prove.

 

[Steve]

What unsubstantiated claim did I make, lol I said what someone who learned under him said.

Right. You said it. And when asked about it, you kind of freaked out.

Dan the Wolfman is a black belt under Gokor, Gene Lebell top student, but again you must resort to moving the goal Post. Well I never heard he did Aikido it must be false...lol

Okay. But really, all I’m asking for is something I can read that talks about Gene LeBe and aikido. I’m not saying you’re wrong or right. You just seem weirdly angry.

it’s still a must thai elbow,

It is? All elbows are Muay Thai elbows?

an aikido lock is still an aikido lock...you changed the subject

I did?

because you said well ive never seen it used in mma,

I did?

so I said it’s not allowed in mma.

It isn’t? What are we even talking about here? I’m totally lost.

of course its dogmatic,

It is?

the gravies

Mmmm. Gravy.

and many BJJ black belts think BJJ is the ultimate art

They do?

and have said some pretty stupid things IMO.

Yeah. Okay. That’s true.

im not defensive I’m just wondering why you’re saying baseless and irrelevant things.

Ummmm.

 

[Steve]

Then why would I listen to your opinion on martial arts?

I’m not asking you to do anything, really, other than maybe provide some support for your claims. I’m genuinely curious about gene lebell and aikido. The more you freak out, the more I’m inclined to believe you’re just making it up.

 

[Mider]

I’m not asking you to do anything, really, other than maybe provide some support for your claims. I’m genuinely curious about gene lebell and aikido. The more you freak out, the more I’m inclined to believe you’re just making it up.

But as you said you’re not asking me to do anything

you can research it yourself you’re a big boy

 

[Mider]

Right. You said it. And when asked about it, you kind of freaked out.


Okay. But really, all I’m asking for is something I can read that talks about Gene LeBe and aikido. I’m not saying you’re wrong or right. You just seem weirdly angry.



It is? All elbows are Muay Thai elbows?

I did?



I did?

It isn’t? What are we even talking about here? I’m totally lost.



It is?




Mmmm. Gravy.

They do?


Yeah. Okay. That’s true.

Ummmm.

I think you're just trolling now, toodles

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So you don't think an athletic competitive fighter would have developed aiki anyway?

I mean you try to move a really good wrestler he is like a rock. And he is like that because he shuts down your mechanical advantage.


Here we go you can see it a bit easier with a mis match.

Those are components of good grappling, but not usually through the body principles of aiki. So, no, most elite grapplers will have developed other body principles to achieve their results.

 

[Steve]

But as you said you’re not asking me to do anything

you can research it yourself you’re a big boy

Sure. I did google Gene LeBell and Aikido and couldn’t find anything. That alone strikes me as odd.

Serious question. Do you know what unsubstantiated means?

I think you're just trolling now, toodles

See ya, I guess.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yes, he knows Aikido. From my understanding each system has similarities but nuanced differences.

explain what? He learned some aikido, what Part of that don’t you get?

I said he was taught aikido moves by Gene Lebell, he knows moves from many arts, again what’s your point, if I throw a Muay Thai elbow it’s suddenly not right because I don’t know the whole system?

No one system works, BJJ black belts lose all the time.

Knowing some Aikido moves isn’t the same as knowing Aikido. There’s a foundation of body principles that aren’t found in a lot of grappling arts. They aren’t important to grappling, but are important to Aikido grappling.

 

[Steve]

Those are components of good grappling, but not usually through the body principles of aiki. So, no, most elite grapplers will have developed other body principles to achieve their results.

Wait. What is aiki now?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yes, I read that from the earlier posts. Something one of you wrote about how he doesn't follow basic aiki principles, among other things. Which is why Steve offered to email him asking him about said principles to see if he does know of them/why he doesn't appear to demonstrate them in his videos.

The ones referred to, he specifically said he discovered in other training after Aikido. He seems aware of them now, but not that they are supposed to be in Aikido.

 

[Mider]

Knowing some Aikido moves isn’t the same as knowing Aikido. There’s a foundation of body principles that aren’t found in a lot of grappling arts. They aren’t important to grappling, but are important to Aikido grappling.

The question was has anyone used Aikido in mma...the answer was yes by Dan the Wolfman. I think He knows a good deal of many arts including aikido he’s just not a black belt in aikido.

 

[JowGaWolf]

This thread is the religiousforums.com of martial talk. It makes me giggle.

I just typed 5 responses today that I haven't sent. I've come to the realization I'm just too tired for this one

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Knowing some Aikido moves isn’t the same as knowing Aikido. There’s a foundation of body principles that aren’t found in a lot of grappling arts. They aren’t important to grappling, but are important to Aikido grappling.

Some principles are commonly used among all grappling art.

For example, you spin your opponent into one direction, you then spin him into the opposite direction.

 

[Martial D]

I just spent 20 mins searching for Gene LeBell and aikido. No mention anywhere, not even on his wikipedia page or his own website.

The only tie to aikido he seems to have is his rather famous story about making Seagal poop himself.

 

[O'Malley]

I've got no clue. I'd have to read through like 8 pages of this thread and parse them to figure it out, otherwise I would have just emailed him directly. I'm on the same page as you-some of the stuff he's said seems pretty similar to stuff Gerry has said so not sure where exactly the distinction is. Hopefully @Gerry Seymour @Mider or @O'Malley can help with that.

Alternatively, we could also ask him to pop on here and talk to a few of us, I get the feeling he might be willing to visit a martial arts forum. Not sure the kind of welcome he'd get here though..

So the idea would be for us to give Rokas an aikido test on an internet forum? We'd be listing the principles that we wish to test him on and he'd somehow demonstrate his intellectual understanding of the principles and his ability to apply them physically? That's his teacher's job.

My points were very simple.

Rokas said that aikido's shiho nage is flawed as it lacks the body connection principle, which he claims he found in wrestling but not in the aikido that he was taught. Then I found a video of his own teacher doing shiho nage and found that he was applying that principle.

Rokas said that aikido's irimi nage is flawed in the same way, as "no one taught him" the footwork and use of the hip to prevent backstepping. Then I found a video of his own teacher doing irimi nage that way. That's not a "fix", that's how the technique is done in the first place.

Redirect Notice

Aikido founder Morihei Ueshiba fixing irimi nage with wrestling.

So we can conclude that, in those two instances, Rokas is trying to fix flaws that don't originate from the method itself but from his own understanding of it.

 

[dvcochran]

Then why would I listen to your opinion on martial arts?

Sir, I can see where the back and forth is going between you and certain people. Some folks on here love to goat, insinuate, and outright lie to bait people in. Happens all the time. I encourage you to just step back and walk away from the debate. It is a truly fruitless and pointless venture.
There are much better threads/topics to spend your time on.
Using 'ignore member' is a great feature.

 

[Cynik75]

Rokas said that aikido's shiho nage is flawed as it lacks the body connection principle, which he claims he found in wrestling but not in the aikido that he was taught. Then I found a video of his own teacher doing shiho nage and found that he was applying that principle.

Rokas said that aikido's irimi nage is flawed in the same way, as "no one taught him" the footwork and use of the hip to prevent backstepping. Then I found a video of his own teacher doing irimi nage that way. That's not a "fix", that's how the technique is done in the first place.

Redirect Notice

Aikido founder Morihei Ueshiba fixing irimi nage with wrestling.

Nope once again. You have written earlier:

In the footage I posted, the body-to-body connection is between Tori (the "doer")'s shoulders and uke (the "receiver")'s extended arm and shoulder. It acts as a leverage point and allows Tori to keep the arch of uke's back.

But this is not this kind of connection Rokas is talking about. He is describing torso-to- torso, hip-to-torso very close connection. Without extending anything. Everything is tight and close to the body like just like here: