Aikido against a boxer

[pdg]

I truly don't care what philosophy that Aikido may use, fake is still fake. All MA styles have fake demo. It's very sad indeed.

What the hell did I just watch part of???

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Aikido may pay too much emphasize on the wrist lock. You can counter a wrist lock by

- raising your elbow, or
- turning your body.

The head lock, shoulder lock, elbow lock are much more difficult to counter.

There are

- wrist gate,
- elbow gate,
- shoulder gate.

Since the wrist gate is so far away from your body. When you apply the wrist gate lock/throw, you may give your opponent too much free space to counter.

As far as the efficiency,

shoulder lock > elbow lock > wrist lock

In my experience, most Aikido schools don't put undue emphasis on wrist gate. They tend to work all three, perhaps the least emphasis at elbow gate, as I understand it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm saying you are more likely to beat a man with haymakers than to beat him if you think a real life opponent will behave anything like this:

Again, I don't think aikido is useless as a whole(for fighting), just as commonly trained. Real people don't run at you chin first with their arms permanently outstretched. If that's how you train, thats what your mind and body are conditioned to.My money would be on the haymaker guy.

And I agree with you. The aiki techniques I know (some of which, at least, are also in Aikido) don't require that - it's the way to train the "purest" versions of those techniques, but only that.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In the following clip, one wrong assumption has been made. When A grabs on B's wrist, A should have a plan. The moment that B tries to deal with A's wrist grab, A should move to his next step. In other words, when A grabs on B, A is 1 step ahead of B. To assume that B can counter A before A can execute his plan can be unrealistic.

I didn't see anything in that video that is contrary to your assertion. It's the basic version of the technique. You don't teach single-leg by teaching what to do when they counter single-leg. You teach single-leg, then teach what to do when they counter it. In the Aikido mindset, you start your technique when it is available - when they give you what you need for it. If they change that, you proceed to the next available technique. As for being able to counter before he completes his plan, that happens all the time, in all arts. That's what counters are.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Agree! To assume that A grabs on B's wrist without a "plan" is unrealistic.

Here is an example. When A grabs on B's wrist, A's "plan" is to

- guide B's arm away from A's entering path,
- so A can reach to B's head.

There will be no time for B to react. No matter what B may try to counter, A already release that wrist grab and moves to the head.

So, you're saying there's no way to counter a plan? I find that difficult to reconcile with experience.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So, you are going to ignore what I actually said and instead make some predictions as if you know the first thing about me? Righto then.

You are right about the cage fight thing though, even though everything in the aikido syllabus is legal in there. You won't see it because it doesn't work.

Someone actually posted a video from an MMA fight that included a very nice example of an Aikido technique. Unfortunately, I don't know the Japanese name (in NGA, we'd call it an inside 2-Hand Wheel Throw, but nobody else does).

 

[pdg]

So, you're saying there's no way to counter a plan? I find that difficult to reconcile with experience.

I agree with this, especially in the context of that video.

If someone grabs my left wrist, then whatever their plan I'm doing something with my right arm, or a leg.

They've essentially just tied up both their arms and one of mine - I could even go in for a headbutt there and them planning to wrap my neck isn't stopping that.

Even if they're only grabbing with the intent to release, I'm not going to stand around and wait to see what happens next before deciding on a counter - I'll take what's open.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Do it on pads then.

All the regular training I do is on solid floors - lino over concrete, wood over concrete, that sort of thing. I fall over pretty regularly because I'm willing to push the envelope a bit and do things I'm not capable of until I'm capable of them.

First maybe 5 times I tried a jumping reverse turning kick (spinning heel?) I fell on my **** (well, my arm too). Nothing broke and I'm still breathing.

If I couldn't fall I wouldn't ask someone to try putting me on the floor. Maybe it's not something I'm saying everyone should do, but I'm not everyone.

It's not about the surface. Part of ukemi is using the fall to escape the lock of a technique as nage proceeds with the motion. If nage continues (without change) and uke doesn't do the escape (usually in the form of a breakfall) there can be damage. Of course, nage - especially high-ranking ones - can tell pretty quickly their uke isn't escaping and can make the necessary adjustment to avoid that.

 

[Martial D]

And I agree with you. The aiki techniques I know (some of which, at least, are also in Aikido) don't require that - it's the way to train the "purest" versions of those techniques, but only that.

I get that. Again, as you know, I don't take issue with the style, just the way it's trained...and that applies to all arts and styles, not just this one. Hell not just styles, but almost any activity. You just can't learn how to do something without experiencing it in realistic conditions.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If you ask someone how he will use his MA style to deal with punch, kick, single leg, ..., he may tell you exactly what those strategies/counters are.

What are the Aikido strategies/counters to punch, kick, single leg, and ...?

You'd have to put something after that "and..." to expect an actual response. There are reasonable Aikido answers to punches (which ones?), basic kicks (which ones), and even single-leg. Some of them wouldn't be my first choice, but they are reasonable.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Like getting hit by lightning while golfing low.

Not nearly that low.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Can you still be soft if your opponent shakes you? Your softness just make your opponent's shaking works better for him.

Does Aikido use any "vibration force" that can be used to interrupt opponent's force?

The concept of "harmony" bother me. Why do you want your opponent to be harmony with you? The more that you can make your opponent feel uncomfortable (enharmonic), the better will be for yourself.

The physical concept that's expressed as "harmony" is pretty close to the basic concept in Judo. It's just about not opposing force, but using it as input to work with.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It's not a myth, it's true. Aikido techniques can be lethal and dangerous for the person at the receiving end. And sure, the Uke will get hurt if he doesn't know how to receive it, that's not an excuse for him to be compliant, the techniques are designed in order to hurt people, so we must know how to react in order to avoid injury while the technique is being applied full force.
If someone decides to stop a technique from being applied, he can either try to counter it using another technique or try to tense up physically and try to outmuscle the technique.
The first scenario is good because it gives both practitioners a ground of working and refining their skills. The second, I wouldn't recommend for anyone, it can result in major injury, Aikido techniques work and if they are done correctly can be destructive. I have seen my fair share of people getting injured because of ego, and because they thought they can resist an Aikido technique and it's not nice...
Aikido's harmony is a technical skill, not a brainwashing philosophy. It means that we are relaxed, we blend with the attacker instead of colliding with him, for the simple reason that the way Aikido works, if done right, it's a more effective strategy than facing the opponent's power head on.
We are relaxed but not dead. We are soft but not weak. We are not brutal but we can have pretty brutal result for the attacker. And if one practices Aikido having practical application in mind, after spending some serious time studying the art he may unlock the truth behind Steven Seagal Sensei's words "the soft is the most severe".

I'll just point out that you've said there are only two ways to counter: tension and a technique. There are probably a dozen different counters to any given technique. Some of them are as simple as extending in a direction that takes the technique out of the circle. Others involve purposely shifting weight to change the circle once nage has taken center. They vary by technique, but the vast majority don't involve adding strength to overpower the technique. In fact, that's the easiest counter to counter-counter.

 

[now disabled]

I agree with this, especially in the context of that video.

If someone grabs my left wrist, then whatever their plan I'm doing something with my right arm, or a leg.

They've essentially just tied up both their arms and one of mine - I could even go in for a headbutt there and them planning to wrap my neck isn't stopping that.

Even if they're only grabbing with the intent to release, I'm not going to stand around and wait to see what happens next before deciding on a counter - I'll take what's open.

Are you talking about the NY Aikikai vid ? if so it was a pure demo as in illustration not anything more

 

[now disabled]

In my experience, most Aikido schools don't put undue emphasis on wrist gate. They tend to work all three, perhaps the least emphasis at elbow gate, as I understand it.

can I ask what you mean by elbow gate ?

 

[pdg]

It's not about the surface. Part of ukemi is using the fall to escape the lock of a technique as nage proceeds with the motion. If nage continues (without change) and uke doesn't do the escape (usually in the form of a breakfall) there can be damage. Of course, nage - especially high-ranking ones - can tell pretty quickly their uke isn't escaping and can make the necessary adjustment to avoid that.

Which is where my "power is nothing without control" comes into play.

And what about the instances where someone can actually use the mechanics of "being locked" to their advantage? Or being able to avoid getting there in the first place?

I'm not saying I can necessarily do either, but I reckon I could stand a decent chance with at least some of it.

And if I mess up that chance, the person having control of themselves enough to release or adjust is exactly the same as me pulling back on a kick when I notice it's not been seen heading toward a face...

Saying (not that I've seen you say it) that if done properly the techniques will work 100% of the time against any opponent is incredibly closed minded - having no notion of possible failure makes you more likely to fail

 

[pdg]

Are you talking about the NY Aikikai vid ? if so it was a pure demo as in illustration not anything more

Follow the quotes back - it's whatever video led to the comments (you can follow the quotes by clicking the little up arrow at the top of the quote).

 

[now disabled]

Someone actually posted a video from an MMA fight that included a very nice example of an Aikido technique. Unfortunately, I don't know the Japanese name (in NGA, we'd call it an inside 2-Hand Wheel Throw, but nobody else does).

You may be meaning Kaiten nage? tenchi nage

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Shioda Gozo is no fake

Shioda had a very high level of skill, but every demo contains some showmanship - some bit of "fakery", if you will. How much varies by demo, and not necessarily by the skill level or efficacy of those involved.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I agree. But what of the parts where the man demonstrating neither begins nor ends a technique, like say as just one example near the end of that vid where he is on all fours, and his students are running at him flipping over his back. The guy doesn't even move. Does that count as finishing a technique?

Unfortunately, I get an error when I try to watch that video, so I can't comment. I'd be interested in seeing what your'e talking about.