Aikido against a boxer

[now disabled]

Saying (not that I've seen you say it) that if done properly the techniques will work 100% of the time against any opponent is incredibly closed minded - having no notion of possible failure makes you more likely to fail

Like you when you say you would do this or that tech at whatever juncture then an Aikidoka would to if one thing is not working adapt to another just an example if the famous Kotegaeshi not there then go for udekime nage and if not that then just straight hiji waza so it not just one tech and if that not working it walk away time Aikido has many many techs that can flow from one to another it not all throws lol oh and just for good measure atemi can be added (shock horror lol)

 

[now disabled]

Shioda had a very high level of skill, but every demo contains some showmanship - some bit of "fakery", if you will. How much varies by demo, and not necessarily by the skill level or efficacy of those involved.

Oh he was a showman he was one of the few when doing a demo used to try and get te audience laughing it was just his style

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Nobody forced him to give "no touch throw" demo. He put that label on himself.

From 0.04 - 0.22.

That's not "no touch" - he's grabbing sleeves and stomping feet. The uke is just overreacting to the input.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The part that really got me was where he stood on the other guy's foot and completely disabled him.

Yeah, like no.

A person has a weight, that weight is their mass being acted on by gravity. That cannot be changed at will. Expecting me to believe that is akin to asking me to believe in fairy magic. If I can lift someone, I can lift them. They can possibly make getting a grip harder with body positioning and the like, but they can't change their weight. Someone that size stands on my foot I'll either just take my foot from under them or simply pick them up by the ears and put them elsewhere.

Oh, and I don't buy the (possible) explanation of him targeting a nerve cluster either - for a few reasons.

One of them is I had that nerve cluster moved following a plasma mortar attack during the battle at owyab'stard valley in 3163.

Another is - I live somewhat near Salisbury - I haven't survived this long by having such susceptible nerves...

I don't know, maybe that guy's toe is like mine. If you step on my left big toe right at the main joint, you can drop me like a stone. Maybe he just picks uke with bad feet.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

What the hell did I just watch part of???

The time I just wasted watching that is entirely your fault. After that reply, I had to see. Damn you.

 

[now disabled]

Unfortunately, I get an error when I try to watch that video, so I can't comment. I'd be interested in seeing what your'e talking about.

It where shioda is doing the same as he did to RFK's bodyguard he also did Kokyo dosa and the bit he is meaning is the bit he did in every demo where he is in seiza bows down and they go over the top of him

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I agree with this, especially in the context of that video.

If someone grabs my left wrist, then whatever their plan I'm doing something with my right arm, or a leg.

They've essentially just tied up both their arms and one of mine - I could even go in for a headbutt there and them planning to wrap my neck isn't stopping that.

Even if they're only grabbing with the intent to release, I'm not going to stand around and wait to see what happens next before deciding on a counter - I'll take what's open.

So your plan can't be interfered, but theirs can? I'm confused.

[Edit: Hit post before I finished.]

Seriously, though, we all have plans. And the other guy has his. We're all trying to execute ours and interfere with theirs. Someone's going to win, and it's a toss-up whether it's because they have a better plan or are better at interfering with the other guy's.

 

[now disabled]

I don't know, maybe that guy's toe is like mine. If you step on my left big toe right at the main joint, you can drop me like a stone. Maybe he just picks uke with bad feet.

That was another shioda party piece he did have a few lol

 

[pdg]

Like you when you say you would do this or that tech at whatever juncture then an Aikidoka would to if one thing is not working adapt to another just an example if the famous Kotegaeshi not there then go for udekime nage and if not that then just straight hiji waza so it not just one tech and if that not working it walk away time Aikido has many many techs that can flow from one to another it not all throws lol oh and just for good measure atemi can be added (shock horror lol)

Saying and doing are two separate things.

Like set drills and free sparring.

That's why I have the desire to work with practitioners of other arts - not because I feel my chosen system is lacking, and not to prove it's 'better', but to look at how I can apply things differently.

It can go both ways too - if I can see how to make a mash of tkd moves into a lock, or a throw, or a compliance technique, then the other person could see where they can use a portion of one of their techniques as an effective block or strike that they may not have realised before. That in turn could open up avenues previously unexplored.

I'm not on about changing a way of doing things, because I don't believe a reapplication is changing.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I get that. Again, as you know, I don't take issue with the style, just the way it's trained...and that applies to all arts and styles, not just this one. Hell not just styles, but almost any activity. You just can't learn how to do something without experiencing it in realistic conditions.

And I take the same issue. I see some value in those exercises, but if the point is to teach fighting application they should be a minor part of training. That perhaps changes if everyone involved already has a fighting foundation and is likely to tinker and test outside class.

 

[now disabled]

Saying and doing are two separate things.

Like set drills and free sparring.

That's why I have the desire to work with practitioners of other arts - not because I feel my chosen system is lacking, and not to prove it's 'better', but to look at how I can apply things differently.

It can go both ways too - if I can see how to make a mash of tkd moves into a lock, or a throw, or a compliance technique, then the other person could see where they can use a portion of one of their techniques as an effective block or strike that they may not have realised before. That in turn could open up avenues previously unexplored.

I'm not on about changing a way of doing things, because I don't believe a reapplication is changing.

Yes there are set drills in Aikido and in truth those are the vids that are out there but that not the full story really but as you say saying and doing are to diff things

 

[Gerry Seymour]

can I ask what you mean by elbow gate ?

If I understood KFW's usage, it's about distance. So, what techniques attack in the area/range of the elbow. What I've seen of Aikido (decidedly not nearly all of it), there's more at the wrist and shoulder/head than at the elbow.

 

[pdg]

So your plan can't be interfered, but theirs can? I'm confused.

[Edit: Hit post before I finished.]

Seriously, though, we all have plans. And the other guy has his. We're all trying to execute ours and interfere with theirs. Someone's going to win, and it's a toss-up whether it's because they have a better plan or are better at interfering with the other guy's.

Ah, I've found an edge

As far as I'm concerned just like the spoon, there is no plan.

How can you interfere with my plan if even I don't know what it is until I do it?

His plan: grab the wrist, hit and release the wrist, go for the neck.

My plan: erm, hit something? Grab something? Lick his cheek to distract him then bite his shin? Point and say "look at that kitten" then poke him in the eye?

Quite honestly, the only time I ever actually plan is for set partner drills where both parties agree a script and work with it.

 

[now disabled]

If I understood KFW's usage, it's about distance. So, what techniques attack in the area/range of the elbow. What I've seen of Aikido (decidedly not nearly all of it), there's more at the wrist and shoulder/head than at the elbow.

We may be at cross purposes but Ikkyo the first tech is the elbow and it is one that O'sensei was really hot on as in I was told (second hand or maybe third ) that he said you could spend a lifetime on just Ikkyo and still not get it right

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Which is where my "power is nothing without control" comes into play.

Precisely.

And what about the instances where someone can actually use the mechanics of "being locked" to their advantage? Or being able to avoid getting there in the first place?

A hard lock is hard to make useful - it alters structure too much. As for avoiding getting there, the real utility of aiki flow work is that it tends to improve the reaction time to get to the next technique when this happens.

I'm not saying I can necessarily do either, but I reckon I could stand a decent chance with at least some of it.

Anyone with grappling experience knows some ways to avoid locks, if they've used it at all in live work. The principles of those counters are the same for many Aikido locks and throws. The trick (against someone who flows really well) is managing to stay ahead of them in that game.

And if I mess up that chance, the person having control of themselves enough to release or adjust is exactly the same as me pulling back on a kick when I notice it's not been seen heading toward a face...

Pretty much the same. Different mechanics, but the same principle.

Saying (not that I've seen you say it) that if done properly the techniques will work 100% of the time against any opponent is incredibly closed minded - having no notion of possible failure makes you more likely to fail

Nothing ever works 100% of the time, except restomping the groin.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You may be meaning Kaiten nage? tenchi nage

2-Hand Wheel Throw would be a variation on kaiten nage. I'm not sure if you'd consider an inside 2HWT to be a variation of that technique. We call it that because it's the closest "named" technique we have, visually speaking. The principles aren't really the same, at all.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That was another shioda party piece he did have a few lol

He liked to entertain at his demos - I've seen that in every demo and teaching video I've ever seen of him. You have to take that into account when evaluating his visible work, because some of what he (and his uke) did was just to entertain.

 

[now disabled]

The trick (against someone who flows really well) is managing to stay ahead of them in that game.

Yup as Aikido should be flowing and fluid not blocky and mechanical hence the blending and the feel

 

[now disabled]

2-Hand Wheel Throw would be a variation on kaiten nage. I'm not sure if you'd consider an inside 2HWT to be a variation of that technique. We call it that because it's the closest "named" technique we have, visually speaking. The principles aren't really the same, at all.

I'd have to see it lol

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ah, I've found an edge

As far as I'm concerned just like the spoon, there is no plan.

How can you interfere with my plan if even I don't know what it is until I do it?

His plan: grab the wrist, hit and release the wrist, go for the neck.

My plan: erm, hit something? Grab something? Lick his cheek to distract him then bite his shin? Point and say "look at that kitten" then poke him in the eye?

Quite honestly, the only time I ever actually plan is for set partner drills where both parties agree a script and work with it.

That's rather how I see things - the "plan" isn't something I'm consciously aware of until I'm in the middle of it. Sometimes, in attack drills (random attacks, ends after a single response), I pick something I want to look for a chance to do, but that's about as far as I get. That means the "planning" is actually building sequences in training. In strikes, that's working combos (and maybe even kata, if they contain useful sequences). In grappling, that's practicing a guard pass or sweep, or the full-sequence kote gaeshi. those are all "plans", but they don't have to be reassembled in the same order. I might enter for an arm drag and end up with a kote gaeshi, because they prevented the arm drag.