Aikido against a boxer

[now disabled]

He liked to entertain at his demos - I've seen that in every demo and teaching video I've ever seen of him. You have to take that into account when evaluating his visible work, because some of what he (and his uke) did was just to entertain.

I saw him live an well he liked playing to the crowd but when he was in the dojo that was different ... I only saw him teach I never was on the mat with him and he was old when I saw him but it was still there you could feel his presence if that makes any sense

 

[now disabled]

That's rather how I see things - the "plan" isn't something I'm consciously aware of until I'm in the middle of it. Sometimes, in attack drills (random attacks, ends after a single response), I pick something I want to look for a chance to do, but that's about as far as I get. That means the "planning" is actually building sequences in training. In strikes, that's working combos (and maybe even kata, if they contain useful sequences). In grappling, that's practicing a guard pass or sweep, or the full-sequence kote gaeshi. those are all "plans", but they don't have to be reassembled in the same order. I might enter for an arm drag and end up with a kote gaeshi, because they prevented the arm drag.

And there in comes the flow and staying ahead of the game being adaptable and fluid

 

[Gerry Seymour]

We may be at cross purposes but Ikkyo the first tech is the elbow and it is one that O'sensei was really hot on as in I was told (second hand or maybe third ) that he said you could spend a lifetime on just Ikkyo and still not get it right

It's arguable where to place that one. You need both wrist-ish and elbow-ish connection for that in the most common variations. The control point for the entry is actually below the elbow, so I tend to view it as a wrist entry. That's just a point-of-view thing though. Whether you call it a wrist entry or an elbow technique, it's certainly not focused on a wrist lock.

We call that technique "Arm Bar" (it's not entirely the same, but Ikkyo would fall into that technique for us). And we often joke that we could manufacture an entire art called "Armbardo", because of all the options and variations available.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'd have to see it lol

I'll have to see if I can find a vid of the inside variation.

 

[now disabled]

It's arguable where to place that one. You need both wrist-ish and elbow-ish connection for that in the most common variations. The control point for the entry is actually below the elbow, so I tend to view it as a wrist entry. That's just a point-of-view thing though. Whether you call it a wrist entry or an elbow technique, it's certainly not focused on a wrist lock.

We call that technique "Arm Bar" (it's not entirely the same, but Ikkyo would fall into that technique for us). And we often joke that we could manufacture an entire art called "Armbardo", because of all the options and variations available.

I get you there as there are many things that can come from ikkyo if it not "happening" and even if they don't happen then back to Ikkyo again

 

[pdg]

That's rather how I see things - the "plan" isn't something I'm consciously aware of until I'm in the middle of it. Sometimes, in attack drills (random attacks, ends after a single response), I pick something I want to look for a chance to do, but that's about as far as I get. That means the "planning" is actually building sequences in training. In strikes, that's working combos (and maybe even kata, if they contain useful sequences). In grappling, that's practicing a guard pass or sweep, or the full-sequence kote gaeshi. those are all "plans", but they don't have to be reassembled in the same order. I might enter for an arm drag and end up with a kote gaeshi, because they prevented the arm drag.

That's quite possibly even more in depth than my planning ever gets now.

When I started, I had plans before a sparring session, like whole scenarios. That didn't work in the slightest.

So, I reduced it to openings and responses - I found that only served to slow me down if I couldn't manufacture the opening I hoped for.

So, I reduced it further to aiming to try a specific technique. Nope.

Eventually, it got down to "not get hit". I got hit.

So now, like I say my planning is restricted to set sparring and drills. At a minimum I'm aware of what the attack is going to be so I'll plan for that.

We also do "step sparring" which is kind of semi free - there are 3, 2 or 1 attacks allowed, but you don't say what they're going to be. I don't even try to plan much for that now, maybe something like "if it's this kick, I'll try this", but the way it works out it's hardly ever 'this' kick...

So yeah, unpredictable is the key I think - it doesn't always work obviously, I'm not superhuman. But it does work a lot - I mean, who in their right mind is going to expect a rising block to appear when they're coming in with an axe kick

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What the hell did I just watch part of???

Some MA guy suddenly feels that he can move people without touching.

 

[drop bear]

I ain't gonna start an argument but where in Aikido does it say that as you put it an elbow to the face is not permitted ?

This peace and love and non violent thing that seems to run and run is really not true it is wholly misinterpreted imo

My concern would be that compared to other martial arts. You are not very good at it.

 

[now disabled]

My concern would be that compared to other martial arts. You are not very good at it.

I'm not good at Aikido ok fair enough

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In the Aikido mindset, you start your technique when it is available ...

I don't like the technique that "you do X and I counter with Y". I like the technique that "I do X, you counter with Y, I then counter with Z".

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

So, you're saying there's no way to counter a plan? I find that difficult to reconcile with experience.

Of course there are always ways to counter a plan. IMO, to assume that your opponent doesn't have a plan is unrealistic.

Should we discuss MA only on the grade school level - you kick me, I kick you back. You punch me, I punch you back? I think we should discuss MA on the university level - I use groin kick to set up a face punch, use face punch to set up a clinch, use clinch to ....

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If someone grabs my left wrist, then whatever their plan I'm doing something with my right arm, or a leg.

If someone grabs on your left wrist, if you try to

- punch him with your right arm, since your right punch will require that your body to rotate to your left, if he redirects your left arm to your right and make your body to rotate to your right, it will prevent your body to rotate to your left.
- kick him with your leg, he can drag your left arm downward and make you put more weigh on your leading leg and you can't raise your leg to kick.

If your opponent doesn't know how to do these, he has no reason to grab on your left wrist.

This is why I have asked, "Should we discuss MA on the grade school level? or should we discuss it on university level?"

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The physical concept that's expressed as "harmony" is pretty close to the basic concept in Judo. It's just about not opposing force, but using it as input to work with.

How do you intend to achieve "harmony" by using Aikido or Judo principle if your opponent do this to you?

When your opponent applies "shaking" on you, there will be no "harmony". You have one grip on your opponent, your opponent breaks it apart. You have another grip on him, he also breaks that grip apart.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Shioda Gozo is no fake

If Mike Tyson demonstrates "no touching knock out", I'll still call that a "fake demo".

 

[Ryback]

Can you still be soft if your opponent shakes you? Your softness just make your opponent's shaking works better for him.

Does Aikido use any "vibration force" that can be used to interrupt opponent's force?

The concept of "harmony" bother me. Why do you want your opponent to be harmony with you? The more that you can make your opponent feel uncomfortable (enharmonic), the better will be for yourself.

It looks by your post that you have no experience in Aikido, so it is a bit difficult for me to explain verbally...
As I already said, blending with the opponent and being in harmony with him has nothing to do with him feeling nice or feeling a sense of peace and love.
It's a technical skill, one that allows the aikidoka to face strong, violent, brutal opponents effectively because he is not colliding with their strength head on...
Apart from any individual techniques, this is the concert of Aiki, the basic Aikido principle and the aikidoka should maintain it at all times. Of course it can be done, all one needs is study hard and once you start applying it, you realize that being relaxed (yet not weak) and blending with the opponent is getting him into a great disadvantage, neutralizing all of his attack and getting his force to actual work against him.
And right there is where "the soft is the most severe" is the best description...

 

[pdg]

punch him with your right arm, since your right punch will require that your body to rotate to your left, if he redirects your left arm to your right and make your body to rotate to your right, it will prevent your body to rotate to your left.

So then my punch becomes a grab to his head, using his energy twisting my body to add to my pull.

Oh, and that's assuming I actually need to rotate my body to the left to perform an effective right hand punch, which I don't. Unless his arm is two feet longer than mine he won't turn me enough to be out of range. I train punches full facing, shoulders square to target. I also train them so my shoulders end up in line, and also reverse half facing so my punching hand is across my torso.

Or y'know, if he's pushed my left arm to my right he's compromised his grip so I could even just go with that rotation and take it all way round to get a backfist or elbow going.

Or go half way round and back kick.

Or go half way round and turn out a hip throw.

kick him with your leg, he can drag your left arm downward and make you put more weigh on your leading leg and you can't raise your leg to kick.

I have two legs, if he's pulled down my arm to weight my front leg I use my rear knee, or I use my other arm and make use of that downward motion to add a bit extra to my elbow on top of his head. Or I do both together.

Or I get all flash and go with that move even more and roll out of it, possibly chucking in a bit of heel action on the way.

If your opponent doesn't know how to do these, he has no reason to grab on your left wrist.

This is why I have asked, "Should we discuss MA on the grade school level? or should we discuss it on university level?"

Quite honestly, assuming that I'd be stumped and unable to respond to a pull or a push is a bit grade school - I expected more.

 

[pdg]

If Mike Tyson demonstrates "no touching knock out", I'll still call that a "fake demo".

I agreed with this post, but I have to add a caveat.

If Mike Tyson said he was going to hit me, you'd very likely see a no touch knock out

 

[Ryback]

See the way I read that is you saying that only aikido can work against aikido, anything else is ego and attempt at muscle.

Can you, in any way, accept that other techniques and skill sets can work against aikido and that I'm not coming from an ego perspective?

If you can't, then I'm afraid I have no choice but to label you as one of the brainwashed...

Say I punch and you flow with that, but then I'm able to redirect your energy, which was already added to my initial energy in a direction you're not expecting.

That is of course assuming you're able to flow with my style of punching in the first place, which neither of us actually know.

You won't be able to use my over commitment for a start, because that doesn't happen.

Maybe you can work with me retracting my hand, but that could bring you straight into my elbow.

And if that misses, I bet you didn't even notice my knee looking sternly at your solar plexus...

Thing is, I don't know if that would work against you, and you sure as shinola don't know if you can work against me.

But, judging your previous comments about working with other arts, I bet you can confidently state that you could, because you've had someone pretend to do something similar (even though they don't actually know what they're doing).

I wouldn't claim that I can or cannot do something because that depends on the circumstances or who I'm dealing with...
I'm not saying that only Aikido had an answer to Aikido, there are many martial arts out there and many people with serious training out there...
Some of the examples you mentioned could very well happen to me if I was to fight with you or any other trained person. But each one of us is responsible of sharpening his own skills by practicing hard and getting better at what he does.
I am not at brainwashed, I know very well the things that can happen during a fighting situation... I don't think I ever claimed in my posts that I can surely beat you or any other with no doubt... I'm merely stating the potential Aikido has as an art if practiced correctly...

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

So then my punch becomes a grab to his head, using his energy twisting my body to add to my pull.

Oh, and that's assuming I actually need to rotate my body to the left to perform an effective right hand punch, which I don't. Unless his arm is two feet longer than mine he won't turn me enough to be out of range. I train punches full facing, shoulders square to target. I also train them so my shoulders end up in line, and also reverse half facing so my punching hand is across my torso.

Or y'know, if he's pushed my left arm to my right he's compromised his grip so I could even just go with that rotation and take it all way round to get a backfist or elbow going.

Or go half way round and back kick.

Or go half way round and turn out a hip throw.



I have two legs, if he's pulled down my arm to weight my front leg I use my rear knee, or I use my other arm and make use of that downward motion to add a bit extra to my elbow on top of his head. Or I do both together.

Or I get all flash and go with that move even more and roll out of it, possibly chucking in a bit of heel action on the way.



Quite honestly, assuming that I'd be stumped and unable to respond to a pull or a push is a bit grade school - I expected more.

Do we agree that it's much more fun to discuss MA in this level?

How far can we have discussion if

- My right hand grab on your left wrist.
- Your right hand knock me down?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

this is the concert of Aiki, ...

The issue is it's not always possible to achieve harmony. How can you achieve harmony if your opponent does this to you?