A serious question to adept martial artists about physical fitness...

[Gerry Seymour]

Stop ganging up on me! Geez! You and GPSeymour...

But okay. Let's do it.

Let's start with the obvious. Name me ONE athlete with developed legs that never squatted? The best one that I can come up with is Robert Forstemann. See below.

And then I realized... Wait a minute... Robert Forstemann actually SQUATS!

There's even a video of him squatting 485 pounds for 20 reps.

Outside of Robert Forstemann and the world of iron sports (bodybuilding, powerlifting, weightlifting) name me one athlete with appreciable leg development WITHOUT squatting. To be fair, let's not include those who leg pressed. And let's also not include strongman competitors and shot putters. They count as barbell athletes.

You won't find one, ever. Nothing can replace progressive resistance training in the department of strength and muscular development. NOTHING. As Paul Anderson once said, "If you don't bend those legs and do those squats, you'll never reach your potential."

In Kung Fu, you got Bruce Lee. A legendary stick figure. Yeah he's fast. Yeah he's skilled. But what about power? Nowadays, his "secret" one-inch punch technique can be replicated by bigger guys. I've seen an instructional video where a bodybuilder showed how it was done. And because HE did it and not Bruce "stick figure" Lee, the kid that got hit was sent flying all the way to the other side of the ring. I kid you not. I'll take the time to search the video if you want me to. I'm not sure I can find it, but believe me that it's there.

And that's another very good argument for barbell squats.

Know that we're not ganging up (especially not me and Jobo - we are more likely to gang up on each other!...wait, that sounded wrong)...

Anyway, I'm genuinely curious about the topic. My view is that each type of strength exercise (barbell, kettlebell, dumbbell, cable, and some of the ad-hoc and traditional methods) has advantages. You asserted that barbell has overall superiority (my word, not yours), and I'm looking for why you assert that - and I'm not going in with the assumption that you're wrong, just that such a broad assertion needs strong backing.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Outside of Robert Forstemann and the world of iron sports (bodybuilding, powerlifting, weightlifting) name me one athlete with appreciable leg development WITHOUT squatting. To be fair, let's not include those who leg pressed. And let's also not include strongman competitors and shot putters. They count as barbell athletes.

I'm curious why you leave out leg pressers and the others, if they didn't actually do barbell squats? I rarely did barbell squats (they always bothered my knees), but could always out-squat people who looked more muscular than me and who actually did squats (and pay for it in pain the next day). Part of that is simply genetics - I develop leg muscle much more easily than upper-body. But I did use leg presses (somehow, they bother my knees less), and was a hiker, runner, and soccer player, so my legs were used a lot.

 

[Zombocalypse]

Let's examine the following 3 different training equipment:

1. Barbell - train arm strength (even weigh).
2. Stone lock - train arm strength, wrist strength (weight on one end).
3. Square bag - train arm strength, wrist strength, finger strength (loose bag filling).

IMO, 3 > 2 > 1

Dear Kung Fu Wang,

Do you honestly and truly and sincerely believe that those goofy-*** movements are superior to squatting and benching? They're goofier than a name that has the word "Wang" on it.

 

[MA_Student]

Stop ganging up on me! Geez! You and GPSeymour...

But okay. Let's do it.

Let's start with the obvious. Name me ONE athlete with developed legs that never squatted? The best one that I can come up with is Robert Forstemann. See below.

And then I realized... Wait a minute... Robert Forstemann actually SQUATS!

There's even a video of him squatting 485 pounds for 20 reps.

Outside of Robert Forstemann and the world of iron sports (bodybuilding, powerlifting, weightlifting) name me one athlete with appreciable leg development WITHOUT squatting. To be fair, let's not include those who leg pressed. And let's also not include strongman competitors and shot putters. They count as barbell athletes.

You won't find one, ever. Nothing can replace progressive resistance training in the department of strength and muscular development. NOTHING. As Paul Anderson once said, "If you don't bend those legs and do those squats, you'll never reach your potential."

In Kung Fu, you got Bruce Lee. A legendary stick figure. Yeah he's fast. Yeah he's skilled. But what about power? Nowadays, his "secret" one-inch punch technique can be replicated by bigger guys. I've seen an instructional video where a bodybuilder showed how it was done. And because HE did it and not Bruce "stick figure" Lee, the kid that got hit was sent flying all the way to the other side of the ring. I kid you not. I'll take the time to search the video if you want me to. I'm not sure I can find it, but believe me that it's there.

Please stop this is getting boring. Also you do know bruce was known to have incredible power and once injured a guys shoulder by punching a focus mitt he was holding. Just stop no one cares about power lifting in martial arts. Yeah strength training is important but it's very low down on the list.

Basically this is just because you know nothing about martial arts so are trying to compensate for that by coming on here acting like some genius who knows than anyone else about lifting weights

 

[Zombocalypse]

That's a valid argument for the squat, and I suspect it applies to most of the alternatives, unless they also use a full bar (which can be done on cable machines) to remove the arm strength issue. But we can't just cherry-pick individual exercises. Your assertion was that barbells are superior in general, so I expect general concepts are more important than analyzing individual exercises. And we have to consider what's useful in the other direction. So, while (from my small knowledge) it's likely a barbell squat (or a nearly similar exercise) is among the best answers for squats, there's the issue of arm independence (each arm having to carry its full load), purposeful instability, etc. that dumbbells and kettlebells can introduce, but which I'm not sure are as prevalent in barbell exercises.

The so-called "purposeful instability" is very overrated. In the culture of iron lifting, people make fun of "functional strength" enthusiasts. There is nothing more common than an expert in that arena making fun of trainees who are a little too fond of a bosu ball.

And if you really think about it, what are the odds of needing to balance yourself in the middle of an earthquake while carrying a puppy over your head? THAT is what "functional training" trains you for.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The so-called "purposeful instability" is very overrated. In the culture of iron lifting, people make fun of "functional strength" enthusiasts. There is nothing more common than an expert in that arena making fun of trainees who are a little too fond of a bosu ball.

And if you really think about it, what are the odds of needing to balance yourself in the middle of an earthquake while carrying a puppy over your head? THAT is what "functional training" trains you for.

And yet, the rotator cuff is what took me off the mats for a while this year, not my inability to squat heavy loads.

 

[Zombocalypse]

I'm curious why you leave out leg pressers and the others, if they didn't actually do barbell squats? I rarely did barbell squats (they always bothered my knees), but could always out-squat people who looked more muscular than me and who actually did squats (and pay for it in pain the next day). Part of that is simply genetics - I develop leg muscle much more easily than upper-body. But I did use leg presses (somehow, they bother my knees less), and was a hiker, runner, and soccer player, so my legs were used a lot.

I exclude leg pressers from the "outsider" category because leg pressing is almost a lot like squatting. Definitely not as healthy as squatting, but they do tax the legs to an appreciable degree. And the motion on the legs is just like squatting.

I exclude strongman competitors because despite the fact that they don't lift an actual barbell in their events, they do train with one.

I exclude shot putters because they, like the bodybuilders and the weightlifters, squat a lot.

 

[Zombocalypse]

And yet, the rotator cuff is what took me off the mats for a while this year, not my inability to squat heavy loads.

What's your point? I don't get it.

 

[Zombocalypse]

some genius

Thank you.

 

[skribs]

This guy's either a troll or just absolutely full of himself. I don't know why anyone is continuing to argue with him.

He's obviously correct because the smartest person on Earth (him) agrees with him(self), and with an appeal to authority like that, none of us are going to measure up to his omniscience. If you do try to argue with him, he'll just refute your "facts" with insults about how dumb you are or accolades for himself.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

What's your point? I don't get it.

The purposeful instability is what taxes stabilizing muscles like the rotator cuff muscles, to prevent injury. They have a place, and you've dismissed them out of hand, by the tone of your post. Stability of the joints is more important than lifting strength for preventing injury.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I exclude leg pressers from the "outsider" category because leg pressing is almost a lot like squatting. Definitely not as healthy as squatting, but they do tax the legs to an appreciable degree. And the motion on the legs is just like squatting.

I exclude strongman competitors because despite the fact that they don't lift an actual barbell in their events, they do train with one.

I exclude shot putters because they, like the bodybuilders and the weightlifters, squat a lot.

Okay, so some you're saying will all be squatters. Since you were asking about folks who don't squat, there's no need to exclude those. The press, though, is one of those exercises that presents a challenge to the assertion that barbells are universally superior. So, you can't just exclude the exercises that are similar, but don't use a barbell.

 

[Zombocalypse]

The purposeful instability is what taxes stabilizing muscles like the rotator cuff muscles, to prevent injury. They have a place, and you've dismissed them out of hand, by the tone of your post. Stability of the joints is more important than lifting strength for preventing injury.

I believe that the only real stability training that you'll ever need comes from basic standing barbell movements like squats and deadlifts. Those two exercises, for example, engages the entire core a lot. And it's not gimmicky. It works.

Other great examples are the Olympic lifts. Cleans and snatches.

No need to further destabilize the ground you're standing on. Unnecessary.

 

[Zombocalypse]

This guy's either a troll or just absolutely full of himself. I don't know why anyone is continuing to argue with him.

He's obviously correct because the smartest person on Earth (him) agrees with him(self), and with an appeal to authority like that, none of us are going to measure up to his omniscience. If you do try to argue with him, he'll just refute your "facts" with insults about how dumb you are or accolades for himself.

Bro, I'm not a troll. I just know better. There's a big difference between a troll and a brilliant mind.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I believe that the only real stability training that you'll ever need comes from basic standing barbell movements like squats and deadlifts. Those two exercises, for example, engages the entire core a lot. And it's not gimmicky. It works.

Other great examples are the Olympic lifts. Cleans and snatches.

No need to further destabilize the ground you're standing on. Unnecessary.

Nothing "gimmicky" about kettlebells, either. And it works.

See, you're starting to make this "you either agree that barbells are awesome, or you must be insulting them". That's a false dilemma. There are things barbells do better than other equipment. In some exercises they may (probably do) excel for certain purposes. But you cannot replicate the instability of a raised kettlebell with a barbell. You can't even replicate the instability of a single dumbbell with a barbell. And sometimes (not always) that instability is necessary. Rehabbing my rotator cuff needs progressive weight at high instability. I can get that a number of ways, and barbells are not the best (according to my PT).

As for destabilizing the ground you're standing on, there are some good reasons to do that. They have to do with balance development - something that's not as much a major factor in Olympic lifting as it is in many martial arts.

I was curious about your reasoning when I originally asked. Now I'm downright skeptical, because you seem to dismiss alternatives outright, without considering where they may fit into someone's fitness needs.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Bro, I'm not a troll. I just know better. There's a big difference between a troll and a brilliant mind.

Your arguments show a closed mind, focused on a solution without considering the variables. That's not brilliant. (Nor is calling yourself brilliant, BTW.)

 

[jobo]

Stop ganging up on me! Geez! You and GPSeymour...

But okay. Let's do it.

Let's start with the obvious. Name me ONE athlete with developed legs that never squatted? The best one that I can come up with is Robert Forstemann. See below.

And then I realized... Wait a minute... Robert Forstemann actually SQUATS!

There's even a video of him squatting 485 pounds for 20 reps.

Outside of Robert Forstemann and the world of iron sports (bodybuilding, powerlifting, weightlifting) name me one athlete with appreciable leg development WITHOUT squatting. To be fair, let's not include those who leg pressed. And let's also not include strongman competitors and shot putters. They count as barbell athletes.

You won't find one, ever. Nothing can replace progressive resistance training in the department of strength and muscular development. NOTHING. As Paul Anderson once said, "If you don't bend those legs and do those squats, you'll never reach your potential."

In Kung Fu, you got Bruce Lee. A legendary stick figure. Yeah he's fast. Yeah he's skilled. But what about power? Nowadays, his "secret" one-inch punch technique can be replicated by bigger guys. I've seen an instructional video where a bodybuilder showed how it was done. And because HE did it and not Bruce "stick figure" Lee, the kid that got hit was sent flying all the way to the other side of the ring. I kid you not. I'll take the time to search the video if you want me to. I'm not sure I can find it, but believe me that it's there.

your making a case for squats, but not for bare bells, I'm stil waiting for you to tell us why squating with a bar hell is better than pushing a car up hill

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

100% off topic, but...I would love to have @Kung Fu Wang as a strength/conditioning trainer. I feel like I could learn so much doing his workouts and figuring out exactly why they work. It would also be cool to learn MA from him, if only to try out the rhino guard and half-side/half-square stance he talks about.

 

[Juany118]

First it depends on the school. The school I attend, and our mother school, have weekly conditioning nights. That said one night isn't enough. The reason for this? Because we pay our instructors to train us how to fight. Due to this a good a instructor will encourage you to also do your own conditioning and the benefits of a healthy lifestyle. They will especially point this out, in a polite way, after sparring because those who haven't been working out on their own will have gotten gassed and likely took some hits because of it.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Dear Kung Fu Wang,

Do you honestly and truly and sincerely believe that those goofy-*** movements are superior to squatting and benching? They're goofier than a name that has the word "Wang" on it.

I'm not comparing those equipment training with squatting and benching. I'm only compare those 3 training equipment

- barbell
- stone lock,
- square throwing bag.

for the benefit of

- arm,
- wrist, and
- fingers.

Wang is my last name. There is noting "goofier" about it.