A serious question to adept martial artists about physical fitness...

[Kung Fu Wang]

Bro, I'm not a troll. I just know better. There's a big difference between a troll and a brilliant mind.

 

[Zombocalypse]

Nothing "gimmicky" about kettlebells, either. And it works.

See, you're starting to make this "you either agree that barbells are awesome, or you must be insulting them". That's a false dilemma. There are things barbells do better than other equipment. In some exercises they may (probably do) excel for certain purposes. But you cannot replicate the instability of a raised kettlebell with a barbell. You can't even replicate the instability of a single dumbbell with a barbell. And sometimes (not always) that instability is necessary. Rehabbing my rotator cuff needs progressive weight at high instability. I can get that a number of ways, and barbells are not the best (according to my PT).

As for destabilizing the ground you're standing on, there are some good reasons to do that. They have to do with balance development - something that's not as much a major factor in Olympic lifting as it is in many martial arts.

I was curious about your reasoning when I originally asked. Now I'm downright skeptical, because you seem to dismiss alternatives outright, without considering where they may fit into someone's fitness needs.

I LOVE kettlebells. I love them more than dumbbells. I wanted you to know that. With a pair of 20-pound kettlebells, I can give myself a good full-body workout. I've done it before. Yes, I like barbells better, but kettlebells come in second.

You said: As for destabilizing the ground you're standing on, there are some good reasons to do that. They have to do with balance development - something that's not as much a major factor in Olympic lifting as it is in many martial arts.

Absolutely wrong. You just can't perform proper Olympic-style lifting if you have no bodily spatial awareness. Heck, a mere deadlift, as simple as it is, requires a good sense of balance. I've seen many of my trainees lose their balance with a squat. And I myself have lost balance with a deadlift. Learning balancing is crucial to weightlifting.

Also, I dismiss alternatives outright because said alternatives are **** compared to barbell lifting.

Squat is love. Squat is life.

To give proof of how important balance is in weightlifting, I dare you to perform a proper (PROPER) overhead squat. Do that, and then look me in the eye and tell me that balance is not important in weightlifting.

 

[Zombocalypse]

First it depends on the school. The school I attend, and our mother school, have weekly conditioning nights. That said one night isn't enough. The reason for this? Because we pay our instructors to train us how to fight. Due to this a good a instructor will encourage you to also do your own conditioning and the benefits of a healthy lifestyle. They will especially point this out, in a polite way, after sparring because those who haven't been working out on their own will have gotten gassed and likely took some hits because of it.

Cool. Thanks for your input.

 

[Zombocalypse]

I'm not comparing those equipment training with squatting and benching. I'm only compare those 3 training equipment

- barbell
- stone lock,
- square throwing bag.

for the benefit of

- arm,
- wrist, and
- fingers.

Wang is my last name. There is noting "goofier" about it.

That makes better sense. Thanks.

That said, I believe arms and wrists can be better trained with traditional weight equipment. Barbells and dumbbells, to be precise. You got a lot of varieties. Reverse curls, wrist curls, hammers curls, whatever.

Sorry about my disrespect earlier. I couldn't help it. It won't happen again. Sorry.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I LOVE kettlebells. I love them more than dumbbells. I wanted you to know that. With a pair of 20-pound kettlebells, I can give myself a good full-body workout. I've done it before. Yes, I like barbells better, but kettlebells come in second.

That isn't clear in the tone of your prior posts, so thanks for clarifying.

Absolutely wrong. You just can't perform proper Olympic-style lifting if you have no bodily spatial awareness. Heck, a mere deadlift, as simple as it is, requires a good sense of balance. I've seen many of my trainees lose their balance with a squat. And I myself have lost balance with a deadlift. Learning balancing is crucial to weightlifting.

You mistake my point and take a very strong stance against the wrong point. I didn't say balance and proprioception was unimportant in lifting. I said it's more important in some martial arts. When two people are trying to throw each other, there's dynamic stress on the balancing muscles of both. When kicking, especially on softer or uneven surfaces, balance becomes more difficult.

Also, I dismiss alternatives outright because said alternatives are **** compared to barbell lifting.

Absolutely wrong.

Squat is love. Squat is life.

Squat is good for what it's good for. Nothing more and nothing less.

To give proof of how important balance is in weightlifting, I dare you to perform a proper (PROPER) overhead squat. Do that, and then look me in the eye and tell me that balance is not important in weightlifting.

I can't do a proper squat overhead or otherwise at present. My knees are too crappy for a fully proper squat. However, that's irrelevant, since I never said balance was unimportant in weightlifting.

You don't seem capable of discussing in a give-and-take of information, so I'm not sure I can be of any more help to you.

 

[jks9199]

Lots of reasons. There are experts out there who'd do this better than me, but I'll give it a shot.

One... The exercises that you can do with a barbell and a power rack covers a lot of ground. These exercises, such as the squat and the power clean, will improve a lot of things. You can't be a shot putter if you can't squat 500 pounds at least. You can't be a sprinter if you have no explosive strength in your legs and posterior chain, which are improved by the power clean. You can't improve your vertical jump without a certain minimum strength level in the back squat. Plyometrics has its limits in that department. As a matter of fact, lots of strength training coaches out there advice against doing plyometrics until you become strong with the squat first. Barbell lifting ability transfers well to most sports.

Two... Barbell lifting incredibly "ergonomic". Do you know what is one of the biggest critiques against strongman training? Injury rate. The objects that require to be lifted and moved in a strongman event are so awkward that they force you to position your bodies in terribly injury-prone movements. An example is the lifting of massive, circular stones. You've probably seen them before. Strongman athletes are bound to round their backs lifting them from the ground. It's almost impossible not to. Barbell lifting is much safer.

Three... Barbell lifting is easily measurable. Compared to pure gymnastics training, barbell lifting has an easier method of progression. All you have to do is add weight. In gymnastics, you'd need to learn various techniques and tricks to increase resistance against the muscle.

And lastly, bragging rights. People love a guy who can bench press or squat an appreciable amount of weight. Paul Anderson, the strongest man to ever live, was dubbed by the Russians back in his heyday as a "Wonder of Nature." That's a damn great title to have as a human being. Humbling and gratifying.

I am sure there are other great reasons and examples as to why barbell training is the bee's knees.

I could go point by point here... but instead, I'll sum it up simply: Who says? Seriously.... who's talking. You're appealing to all sorts of unnamed authorities, stating opinions as facts, and generally not offering any support for your opinions.

Few if any of us here would suggest that there's no place for strength training in martial arts. But it's not the be-all-and-end-all of improving martial arts training either. Nor are most of suggesting that there aren't flaws and failings in a lot of the "traditional" (in quotes because a lot of them aren't as traditional as many would have you believe -- or only showed up after being seen in a Chinese movie) training methods. There's certainly room for looking at better, more modern methods of training and conditioning -- but that doesn't mean the older methods are all garbage, either. Nor does it mean that the only sort of training to do should be moving iron, either. There's room for methods from various athletic disciplines.

 

[Zombocalypse]

You don't seem capable of discussing in a give-and-take of information, so I'm not sure I can be of any more help to you.

Please don't think that.

I think the problem is that I stick to dogma. But I want you to know that my adherence to these dogma of mine are borne from an honest passion for physical development. For example, I firmly believe that Olympic weightlifting is, as one of her ambassadors once said, the king of sports. That's relative. I know that. But there is basis to think that it's an absolute truth. It's a great sport. There is a strong culture behind it, much like in martial arts.

And in this subculture that I call "The Iron Game", our "cult", if you wanna call it that, adhere to some very fundamental beliefs that inevitably clash with other beliefs from other cultures/subcultures.

Martial arts is the same thing. People often deny that they don't have a religion, but that's false. Everyone in the world has their own maxims and beliefs, which can be defined as their own "religion". I'm one of them. I'm one of you. It's just that I'm willing to go to the ends of the world to impose my own truth.

It's often unwise to pick a side in any conflict. It's often better to be neutral because it's safer and more comfortable. But I don't roll that way. lol

 

[jks9199]

Let's compare it to kettlebells as an example.

Think of the squat. The squat is one of the most important strength training exercises known to modern man. With a barbell and a squat rack, you'd be able to do squats properly. With the kettlebell (or two), you can do goblet squats with it. Goblet squats are inferior to the traditional barbell back squat for a number of reasons. First, your upper-body strength will be a limiting factor. You can only hold on to a kettlebell that your upper-body can handle, which is very limited. Because of that, you won't be able to tax your legs all that much because the weight is not heavy enough.

Want more examples?

Goblet squats aren't inferior to back squats, or front squats, or the V-Squat machine, or... whatever. They're different. A good program will combine different exercise for exactly that reason. You can work the muscle along different angles, in different positions. A routine that focuses too much on any one exercise will lead to problems and imbalances.

 

[jks9199]

In Kung Fu, you got Bruce Lee. A legendary stick figure. Yeah he's fast. Yeah he's skilled. But what about power? Nowadays, his "secret" one-inch punch technique can be replicated by bigger guys. I've seen an instructional video where a bodybuilder showed how it was done. And because HE did it and not Bruce "stick figure" Lee, the kid that got hit was sent flying all the way to the other side of the ring. I kid you not. I'll take the time to search the video if you want me to. I'm not sure I can find it, but believe me that it's there.

Maybe you somehow missed it...

But Bruce Lee? He was kind of known for his physical development, including weight training... One quick article HERE.

 

[jks9199]

The so-called "purposeful instability" is very overrated. In the culture of iron lifting, people make fun of "functional strength" enthusiasts. There is nothing more common than an expert in that arena making fun of trainees who are a little too fond of a bosu ball.

And if you really think about it, what are the odds of needing to balance yourself in the middle of an earthquake while carrying a puppy over your head? THAT is what "functional training" trains you for.

Um... maybe in the gyms you frequent. Most of the guys I work out with and around -- including some nationally known lifters and bodybuilders and trainers -- recognize that different types of training are appropriate for different goals. They laugh at some of the crazy silly stuff people do, whether that's lousy form, using equipment wrong, or... hell, that list gets long -- but not at "functional training" done properly.

 

[jks9199]

Bro, I'm not a troll. I just know better. There's a big difference between a troll and a brilliant mind.

Again -- you're making a claim. SUPPORT IT. What are YOUR credentials. Why should we believe YOU know more than anyone else?

 

[Zombocalypse]

Goblet squats aren't inferior to back squats, or front squats, or the V-Squat machine, or... whatever. They're different. A good program will combine different exercise for exactly that reason. You can work the muscle along different angles, in different positions. A routine that focuses too much on any one exercise will lead to problems and imbalances.

Thank you for this! This is good thinking and good observation on your part. Thanks!

I agree. Training programs, whether training for sports or bodybuilding or martial arts, must be balanced and well-rounded. This I definitely agree with.

What I DON'T agree with is your statement: A routine that focuses too much on any one exercise will lead to problems and imbalances.

There is truth to this. But at the end of the day, there really is no such thing as a completely balanced training program. The exceptions to this rule are the ones that don't work. There really is no such thing as a jack of all trades. Everyone has their physical flaws. You can't have an IFBB competitor also be a sprinter, and no successful sprinter in the world has enough muscle mass to reach the elite in powerlifting.

Another thing... In bodybuilding, there are what you call "specialization programs", or so I dubbed. The first time I read about this type of training, I thought to my self, "Why specialize if you can just simultaneously improve everything?" And then after months of intense study and discovery, I found out an answer to my question, which is this... Most people (95%), regardless of what sport they compete it, will always always always have a weakness or two. And these people must prioritize their weaknesses so they'd be stronger as a whole. The chain is only as strong as its weakest link. Very true indeed... Paul Anderson's training revolved around the squat. And because of that, he became a "Wonder of Nature", as Russians called him. Old-time Bulgarian weightlifters did very few (less than six) different exercises, and they thrived. And lastly, allow me to quote Baltasar Gracian...

Prize intensity more than extensity. Perfection resides in quality, not quantity. Extent alone never rises above mediocrity, and it is the misfortune of men with wide general interests that while they would like to have their finger in every pie, they have one in none. Intensity gives eminence, and rises to the heroic in matters sublime.

~Baltasar Gracian (1601-1658)

 

[Zombocalypse]

Maybe you somehow missed it...

But Bruce Lee? He was kind of known for his physical development, including weight training... One quick article HERE.

And this proves once again that lifting weights is superior.

 

[Zombocalypse]

Um... maybe in the gyms you frequent. Most of the guys I work out with and around -- including some nationally known lifters and bodybuilders and trainers -- recognize that different types of training are appropriate for different goals. They laugh at some of the crazy silly stuff people do, whether that's lousy form, using equipment wrong, or... hell, that list gets long -- but not at "functional training" done properly.

Can you please define to me what you mean by functional training?

"Functional training" has certain connotations to it that makes it confusing. For example, bicep curls... They were never considered to be functional training until Randy Couture spoke of how important they are in wrestling. And if you really wanna get technical about it, basic deadlifts are, in fact, a form of "functional training" because of how it encompasses so many important day-to-day activities like bending over to grab something or pulling on weeds.

 

[Zombocalypse]

Again -- you're making a claim. SUPPORT IT. What are YOUR credentials. Why should we believe YOU know more than anyone else?

I already mentioned my credentials in some previous posts. But I'll go and mention them again now...

1. Competitive powerlifter in my teens. 455-pound deadlift, 405-pound "power" squat, and 275-pound bench press. All at age 17.

2. Last year, I took my squat up from 335 pounds to 405 pounds in two months. Most people would take them at least 6 months to do that. Also, this is a different kind of squat. Olympic-style, with a pause at the bottom, as opposed to powerlifting-style as I did as a teen.

3. I've been in 13 total street fights from elementary school to my early twenties.

4. Boxed for about two months. Beat up a kid a year older than me. I was 14 years old and he was 15, and he was training in boxing for a year. But I'll be fair here... I hit the back of his head, which is a no-no.

5. I once wrote an article to a vertical jumping website that got posted for a week. To be fair, it was taken down because I failed to cite my sources. However, it was posted. That says something.

And most importantly...

6. It's my destiny to become awesome.

 

[skribs]

I already mentioned my credentials in some previous posts. But I'll go and mention them again now...

1. Competitive powerlifter in my teens. 455-pound deadlift, 405-pound "power" squat, and 275-pound bench press. All at age 17.

2. Last year, I took my squat up from 335 pounds to 405 pounds in two months. Most people would take them at least 6 months to do that. Also, this is a different kind of squat. Olympic-style, with a pause at the bottom, as opposed to powerlifting-style as I did as a teen.

3. I've been in 13 total street fights from elementary school to my early twenties.

4. Boxed for about two months. Beat up a kid a year older than me. I was 14 years old and he was 15, and he was training in boxing for a year. But I'll be fair here... I hit the back of his head, which is a no-no.

5. I once wrote an article to a vertical jumping website that got posted for a week. To be fair, it was taken down because I failed to cite my sources. However, it was posted. That says something.

And most importantly...

6. It's my destiny to become awesome.

1 and 2 only prove you were good at lifting, not that you are qualified to know the science of lifting and pass it on to others, nor that you are qualified to know that the lifts you are doing are best for someone else.

3 is not a credential I'd be proud of. At best it suggests you have poor awareness of bad situations, and at worst it suggests you are the one starting fights.

4 you "beat up a kid" by breaking the rules, doesn't really sound good from any angle.

5 You wrote an article that made it to a website? Um...okay. I've written several that have been stickied on various forums (not for weight lifting though). I don't think this qualifies you as an expert, it just means you had a decent article by that website's standards.

6. Ah, yes, this absolutely holds up.

Your list of reasons is like someone saying that because they were shift supervisor at a local grocery store for 2 months, that they should be CEO of a medium-sized shipping company.

 

[Zombocalypse]

1 and 2 only prove you were good at lifting, not that you are qualified to know the science of lifting and pass it on to others, nor that you are qualified to know that the lifts you are doing are best for someone else.

3 is not a credential I'd be proud of. At best it suggests you have poor awareness of bad situations, and at worst it suggests you are the one starting fights.

4 you "beat up a kid" by breaking the rules, doesn't really sound good from any angle.

5 You wrote an article that made it to a website? Um...okay. I've written several that have been stickied on various forums (not for weight lifting though). I don't think this qualifies you as an expert, it just means you had a decent article by that website's standards.

6. Ah, yes, this absolutely holds up.

Your list of reasons is like someone saying that because they were shift supervisor at a local grocery store for 2 months, that they should be CEO of a medium-sized shipping company.

I forgot one other thing... I've actually trained others in volleyball and lifting with great success. The friends and family that I trained felt like I knew what I was doing. I have charisma. But anyway...

Hey, at least I got something... They're not good credentials but they're credentials nonetheless. Much better and more ethical than bragging about things that never were.

 

[MA_Student]

Bro, I'm not a troll. I just know better. There's a big difference between a troll and a brilliant mind.

Lol well you're definently not the second one....maybe just extremely arrogant

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It's just that I'm willing to go to the ends of the world to impose my own truth.

This is where you and I will clash. Imposing your truth won’t work with, on, or near me. I won’t buy it. In fact, the harder you push, the less I’m interested.

I understand passion. I even understand non-religious evangelism - I’m pretty evangelical about good management and leadership. But when your passion leads you to mock alternatives simply because they aren’t your preferred approach, your mind is closed, and will close most it encounters.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And this proves once again that lifting weights is superior.

Now your argument has shifted to lifting weights, rather than barbells.