A serious question to adept martial artists about physical fitness...

[JR 137]

My original question is this...

Why do martial artists in general (emphasis IN GENERAL), traditional or MMA, know so little about the science of strength and conditioning?

I understand that this question of mine has certain implications within it. It is this one: I think I know better than you...

Here's the thing...

Let's be real here. I have experience and knowledge. I've been in and out of the world of iron and bodybuilding and powerlifting and weightlifting. I've seen stuff and experienced stuff. I know what works and what doesn't. I've done every workout imaginable. I'm 26 years old after all. I'm not that old, but I'm old enough to know stuff. I think you should give me some merit.

It is my opinion that a lot (not all) of martial artists and their trainers have it wrong when it comes to strength training. They have them do kettlebells instead of barbells, and pink weights instead of kettlebells. They do workouts that has zero carryover to their chosen sport, do marathon running instead of the more appropriate sprints (or other workouts that tax the same "energy system".), and skip squats and deadlifts in favor of CURLS!

Those things I mentioned are blatantly stupid regardless of what sport you are training for. Maybe there are exceptions, like arm wrestling where curls are a priority. But for the vast majority of a lot of martial artists, they have it wrong...

The pinnacle of strength training is barbell lifting. And I am a man who specializes in that...

How many competitive martial artists have you been around during strength & conditioning sessions? How do you know for a fact that this is what’s predominantly the norm?

Edit: This is a bit of a stretch, it how do you know what they’re saying they’re doing and what they’re actually doing are the same thing? Perhaps a bit of gamesmanship?

 

[skribs]

This is kinda like a "my art is better than your art" or "my Dad can beat up your Dad", except it's "my workout is better than your workout."

 

[Zombocalypse]

This is kinda like a "my art is better than your art" or "my Dad can beat up your Dad", except it's "my workout is better than your workout."

I apologize to all if it seemed that way. I was defending my merit...

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

So ignoring all the signs that you're a troll (from the initial post): The first issue is that you're saying you have experience, but you don't not really. You have experience in lifting for competitions/bodybuilding, which has different priorities than martial arts (I'll explain why in the bottom). You also stated you're experience comes from doing the different workouts, but again that is you doing them for the purposes that you have, and you haven't mentioned any education in personal training. There are people on this board, including people whom have already commented, whom have probably done the same workouts as you, for the purpose of martial arts, for longer than you've been alive, and whom have had education and work in a field related to personal training.

That all probably sounds like I'm bashing you, trying an appeal to authority, or making the same implication as

Martial arts training builds a lean, functional physique as opposed to useless bulky muscles

That's not what I'm doing. Just explaining to you that the issue (may be) a lack of knowledge on your part of training for martial arts, rather than the martial artists lack of understanding. Don't get me wrong, there are many MA's out there who don't know this stuff, but that will also be explained in the bottom. But for two examples: You suggested that long-distance running is not useful, which is false according to the professional trainers I've talked to, as it builds an aerobic base. Quick search found this link as well MMA Specific Running Program To Provide The Necessary Conditioning in The Cage. Doing sprints, HIIT, etc. is also incredibly important, but so is the running. According to the livestrong site, if you're training to box, run long-distance 2-3 days and HIIT 2+ days (Home Boxing Exercises). That's not something you would learn from powerlifting/bodybuilding/etc., because you're never going to have to go for 12 rounds when your bodybuilding. Regarding the line I quoted earlier, bigger muscles CAN make you gas out more. In a street fight that's probably not going to matter all that much, but depending on what you're training for, there is a trade-off there.

So now as an actual answer to your question. IMO (And this is very simplified), there are two types of martial artists: those who compete and those who don't. Even if I was a bodybuilder/powerlifter, and I taught at a dojo, I wouldn't be using that knowledge, for either type of MA.

For those who compete, weight classes comes into play, Drop Bear explained why pretty succinctly with

Of course as a side to that with MMA specifically there are weight classes. So with huge muscles you fight a guy with a fundamentally bigger frame. Who is then not as likley to fatigue.

. You don't want to be too bulky and end up in too high of a weight class.

For those who don't compete, the focus is not on fighting (competitively), it's on learning a martial art. For that, there's no need to bulk up, it's just learning skills. If you want to defend yourself, you should probably be working out, or learning weapon-based MA (or both), but you're going to the dojo to learn their martial art, not to get big. And just because someone knows how to strike/grapple/etc. doesn't mean they have any obligation to also know how to build muscle properly (unless they advertise that).[/QUOTE]

 

[Zombocalypse]

So ignoring all the signs that you're a troll (from the initial post): The first issue is that you're saying you have experience, but you don't not really. You have experience in lifting for competitions/bodybuilding, which has different priorities than martial arts (I'll explain why in the bottom). You also stated you're experience comes from doing the different workouts, but again that is you doing them for the purposes that you have, and you haven't mentioned any education in personal training. There are people on this board, including people whom have already commented, whom have probably done the same workouts as you, for the purpose of martial arts, for longer than you've been alive, and whom have had education and work in a field related to personal training.

That all probably sounds like I'm bashing you, trying an appeal to authority, or making the same implication as That's not what I'm doing. Just explaining to you that the issue (may be) a lack of knowledge on your part of training for martial arts, rather than the martial artists lack of understanding. Don't get me wrong, there are many MA's out there who don't know this stuff, but that will also be explained in the bottom. But for two examples: You suggested that long-distance running is not useful, which is false according to the professional trainers I've talked to, as it builds an aerobic base. Quick search found this link as well MMA Specific Running Program To Provide The Necessary Conditioning in The Cage. Doing sprints, HIIT, etc. is also incredibly important, but so is the running. According to the livestrong site, if you're training to box, run long-distance 2-3 days and HIIT 2+ days (Home Boxing Exercises). That's not something you would learn from powerlifting/bodybuilding/etc., because you're never going to have to go for 12 rounds when your bodybuilding. Regarding the line I quoted earlier, bigger muscles CAN make you gas out more. In a street fight that's probably not going to matter all that much, but depending on what you're training for, there is a trade-off there.

So now as an actual answer to your question. IMO (And this is very simplified), there are two types of martial artists: those who compete and those who don't. Even if I was a bodybuilder/powerlifter, and I taught at a dojo, I wouldn't be using that knowledge, for either type of MA.

For those who compete, weight classes comes into play, Drop Bear explained why pretty succinctly with . You don't want to be too bulky and end up in too high of a weight class.

For those who don't compete, the focus is not on fighting (competitively), it's on learning a martial art. For that, there's no need to bulk up, it's just learning skills. If you want to defend yourself, you should probably be working out, or learning weapon-based MA (or both), but you're going to the dojo to learn their martial art, not to get big. And just because someone knows how to strike/grapple/etc. doesn't mean they have any obligation to also know how to build muscle properly (unless they advertise that).

[/QUOTE]



So bottom line... What's your point? Sorry. I must've missed it. It was a long read. lol

I am aware that bigger guys can gas out more. As far as you mentioning that long-distance running is actually useful, that's new information for me... I've always thought that anaerobic endurance is more important in MMA and boxing than aerobic endurance, because you attack the enemy with short bursts of power. I was at least semi-aware of the importance of aerobic endurance, but I've always thought that it was not as important as the ability to tolerate lactic acid buildup due to short bursts of intense exertions. So that's new to me. Thanks for the information.

 

[drop bear]

Possible. But I contend that I'd make a better strength and conditioning coach than A LOT (and I do mean A LOT) of MMA coaches out there. My expertise has the foundation of theoretical knowledge plus practical experience. Like I said, I was a competitve powerlifter as a teen. I have, with very minimal training, have achieved a 405-pound Olympic style, pause-at-the-bottom squat. If I took this strength coaching thing seriously, I'd make it big. I know I can. It's just that I don't have the work ethic for it.

Let us please not question my credentials and just focus on the topic at hand, which is: Why are many MMA strength and conditioning coaches so ignorant?

Which coaches are you suggesting are sub par?

I mean we could look at their credentials.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

So bottom line... What's your point? Sorry. I must've missed it. It was a long read. lol

Yeah, I ramble sometimes. Too many thoughts in my head to get out. There were a couple points, but the overall point: Martial arts instructors are supposed to be skilled in what they do. If they train people for the martial art and/or self-defense, they should be skilled in the martial art/the techniques. If they train people for fighting, they should be skilled in the techniques allowed in the competitions, along with physical conditioning for fighting in those formats. specifically because of weight classes, when it comes to strength-training, it's different than power-lifting/bodybuilding/etc. So the knowledge and experience you have won't translate, and may actually harm, a professional fighter if it results in them being in a disadvantageous weight class, or gassing out in a long fight (think 12 round boxing match).

[QUOTE[I am aware that bigger guys can gas out more. As far as you mentioning that long-distance running is actually useful, that's new information for me... I've always thought that anaerobic endurance is more important in MMA and boxing than aerobic endurance, because you attack the enemy with short bursts of power. I was at least semi-aware of the importance of aerobic endurance, but I've always thought that it was not as important as the ability to tolerate lactic acid buildup due to short bursts of intense exertions. So that's new to me. Thanks for the information.[/QUOTE]

They're actually both important, I personally think anaerobic is more important from my own experience, but I don't know of any actual evidence that when it comes to fighting in a ring one is more important than the other.

 

[Zombocalypse]

Which coaches are you suggesting are sub par?

I mean we could look at their credentials.

The ones training Buakaw here:

I'm not particularly impressed by the application of planks. I can understand the balancing thing in the end and the agility training in the beginning. But the planks? No bro. Just do weighted situps with heavy weight. Even a sit up machine would be better than planks because at least you can appropriately overload your abs the right way. I also recommend turkish get-ups...

For the obliques, dumbbell side bends, progressively using heavier weight, is infinitely better than planks. Like this:

If you want, you can show me these MMA coaches and I'll critique what they're doing wrong. I'm confident that I'm bound to find someone doing ****.

 

[Zombocalypse]

Yeah, I ramble sometimes. Too many thoughts in my head to get out. There were a couple points, but the overall point: Martial arts instructors are supposed to be skilled in what they do. If they train people for the martial art and/or self-defense, they should be skilled in the martial art/the techniques. If they train people for fighting, they should be skilled in the techniques allowed in the competitions, along with physical conditioning for fighting in those formats. specifically because of weight classes, when it comes to strength-training, it's different than power-lifting/bodybuilding/etc. So the knowledge and experience you have won't translate, and may actually harm, a professional fighter if it results in them being in a disadvantageous weight class, or gassing out in a long fight (think 12 round boxing match).

[QUOTE[I am aware that bigger guys can gas out more. As far as you mentioning that long-distance running is actually useful, that's new information for me... I've always thought that anaerobic endurance is more important in MMA and boxing than aerobic endurance, because you attack the enemy with short bursts of power. I was at least semi-aware of the importance of aerobic endurance, but I've always thought that it was not as important as the ability to tolerate lactic acid buildup due to short bursts of intense exertions. So that's new to me. Thanks for the information.

They're actually both important, I personally think anaerobic is more important from my own experience, but I don't know of any actual evidence that when it comes to fighting in a ring one is more important than the other.

I'd bank that anaerobic endurance is much more important for the explosive athlete who relies on explosive attacks. Now, for a guy like Mayweather, a feather fist, it's a different story. But if you're talking about wrestling for MMA, you NEED anaerobic endurance MUCH MORE than aerobic. You are, after all, grappling a heavy and resisting body. That is all about STRENGTH and ANAEROBIC endurance.

If we wanna get technical about it, such an activity (wrestling) requires the usage of the energy system that involves the body's use of ATP reserves, and the muscle's glycogen stores. If we are considering that, strength and anaerobic endurance becomes the priority.

 

[JR 137]

Planks are very good. Just ask Mike Boyle. He’s also pretty much anti-squats. If you don’t know Mike Boyle, google him; his credentials and client list speaks for itself.

As far as aerobic training for predominantly anaerobic athletes/sports - recovery. Boxing isn’t purely anaerobic. Throw a hard combo, get out, get back in. The combo is anaerobic, but there’s aerobic recovery in between the anaerobic periods and between rounds. Aerobic conditioning leads to increased red blood cells (which carry oxygen), increased capillaries in the muscles and lungs to get oxygen in and carbon dioxide out quicker, and so on. Boxers partly train to be able to get their heart rate and breathing rate down to as close to resting as possible between rounds. Aerobic conditioning is a huge part of that. Looking at cellular respiration, water is a critical part of the energy process. Boxers and fighters drink minimal water during fights partially so they don’t throw up when they’re hit. The better aerobic conditioning, the the longer they can go.

Anaerobic process only last so long. Aerobic processes are absolutely needed to help recovery and keep a fighter in the fight.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I'd bank that anaerobic endurance is much more important for the explosive athlete who relies on explosive attacks. Now, for a guy like Mayweather, a feather fist, it's a different story. But if you're talking about wrestling for MMA, you NEED anaerobic endurance MUCH MORE than aerobic. You are, after all, grappling a heavy and resisting body. That is all about STRENGTH and ANAEROBIC endurance.

If we wanna get technical about it, such an activity (wrestling) requires the usage of the energy system that involves the body's use of ATP reserves, and the muscle's glycogen stores. If we are considering that, strength and anaerobic endurance becomes the priority.

Do you have experience/training grappling? There's a lot more than just strength/explosive energy involved, there's a lot of waiting, conserving your energy, avoiding pushing yourself to that limit until you need to. A lot of time also sent trying to regain energy while stuck between transitions. This is another example of you having related experience, rather than direct experience as a fighter is interfering with your view of MA training/conditioning.

Regarding strength, I've seen a 100 pound women playing around with someone over twice her weight like he's a rag doll. Strength is definitely important, but it's not the be all and end all of grappling.

 

[Zombocalypse]

Do you have experience/training grappling? There's a lot more than just strength/explosive energy involved, there's a lot of waiting, conserving your energy, avoiding pushing yourself to that limit until you need to. A lot of time also sent trying to regain energy while stuck between transitions. This is another example of you having related experience, rather than direct experience as a fighter is interfering with your view of MA training/conditioning.

Regarding strength, I've seen a 100 pound women playing around with someone over twice her weight like he's a rag doll. Strength is definitely important, but it's not the be all and end all of grappling.

That thing you mentioned. The one about the 100-pound woman ragdolling a 200+ pound man. I'm gonna bet that the skill disparity was astronomical it's not even funny. Like pitting a pre-white belt against an MMA legend. I don't think that's fair. If you teach that guy a little bit of technique and drill him for A WEEK, he'd easily trample the woman. If not, then that's his incompetence, NOT a testimony of strength being unimportant.

You also didn't mention if the guy was either fat or muscular. Was he even in shape?

I have a little experience wrestling, yes. I lost about 80% of my wrestling matches. I was competing against kids who actually wrestled. lol.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

That thing you mentioned. The one about the 100-pound woman ragdolling a 200+ pound man. I'm gonna bet that the skill disparity was astronomical it's not even funny. Like pitting a pre-white belt against an MMA legend. I don't think that's fair. If you teach that guy a little bit of technique and drill him for A WEEK, he'd easily trample the woman. If not, then that's his incompetence, NOT a testimony of strength being unimportant.

Oh yeah, giant skill disparity. She's been training for years and he hasn't. But he's been training a couple months at this point, she still ragdolls him. He's muscular. He's one of the guys that if you look at him, its clear he's got muscles, and he's been doing kickboxing for a long time.

I have a little experience wrestling, yes. I lost about 80% of my wrestling matches. I was competing against kids who actually wrestled. lol.

Would it be a fair guess that those guys were less muscular than you, based on your previous posts? So you had enough technique to compete, but would still lose?

I'm not trying to turn this into a technique vs. strength thing, just pointing out there are different aspects outside of strength, that come into play in competitive formats. IMO probably not as much in a 'street fight' or an SD situation. But both are important, not knocking one or the other.

 

[Zombocalypse]

Would it be a fair guess that those guys were less muscular than you, based on your previous posts? So you had enough technique to compete, but would still lose?

Actually no... A lot of them were pretty fit and strong. There are exceptions though. I once lost a wrestling match against a relatively weak kid. And I once struggled against an 9-year old kid when I was 14 years old.

I used to wrestle against this 250-pound kid regularly, but he was fat. I was stronger than him gym-wise. Better bench press, better deadlift, etcetera, but he still beat me. To be fair, I was always trying to lift him off the ground. He was too heavy for me. And his wins against me involved a lot of waiting for me to get tired from trying to lift him. lol

And then there was this seasoned greco-roman wrestler guy. Stronger than me for sure and a skilled wrestler. I wrestled with him probably half a dozen times and always lost. The guy was good...

I once wrestled against a puny kid whom I could've hurt real badly with a bear hug. Obviously I didn't and I just let him win. And the reason why I lost was because a bear hug was literally the ONLY path to victory that I got. I had no idea how to pin him down or submit him. A severe lack of skill... If it was a real match though, I would've given him something to cry about. Bear hugs are painful. lol

There was also this time when I wrestled against a REAL man. VERY VERY muscular and strong. Now that was a totally different experience. His strength clearly showed. In less than 5 seconds in the match, he suplexed me like I was a pillow. That right there is a testament to the importance of strength. You can't pull that off with just technique. Think of guys like Aleksandr Karelin. Would he have been able to do the things that he did if he was weak? Do you think he would've been a legend without his muscles and strength?

That's my point.

 

[MA_Student]

Funny thing is your talking so much but what's your actual experience with martial arts...not weights but martial arts

 

[Zombocalypse]

Funny thing is your talking so much but what's your actual experience with martial arts...not weights but martial arts

Aside from what I just mentioned literally right before this post?

I've been in 13 street fights from my pre-teens to my early 20's. REAL fights, where the enemy had REAL intent to hurt me. Believe me, I know. lol

I also have a little bit of boxing experience in high school. I learned early on that I'm a damn good "swarmer", or I think that's what they call them... Basically, the style of boxing where you try to get up close and throw hooks and uppercuts, as opposed to peppering guys with jabs from the outside. I seriously hurt a guy in a sparring session with that style. Enough for him to call a time out. lol

 

[Buka]

A serious question to adept martial artists about physical fitness...



I'll just be blunt with it. But please don't think I'm trolling. I am being sincere here and I am honestly curious.

Why do martial artists in general (emphasis IN GENERAL), traditional or MMA, know so little about the science of strength and conditioning?

I'll give you an example... Many many months ago, either here or in another martial arts forum, I saw a very classic, very uneducated response with regards to me commenting about certain martial artists in a youtube video having great physiques. I said that I thought they have great physiques, and I got this sort of response:

"Martial arts training builds a lean, functional physique as opposed to useless bulky muscles."

Any person experienced enough in the field of physical fitness would tell you how uneducated and amateurish such a comment is. I know, because I'm one of them. I was a competitive powerlifter back in my teens and have never struggled with matters of strength training.

But often, both on TV and the internet, I see dozens upon dozens of strength and conditioning coaches employing stupid approaches to their athletes.

Why is this? Is martial arts so skill-oriented that even with absolute shitty strength and conditioning, skilled martial artists would still dominate?

Your thoughts are appreciated. And also, I'm not trolling (ignore my avatar). I'm just really curious about this.

Bee, I guess it would depend on what Martial Artists you've trained with. Many of the Martial Artists I know have as much experience and knowledge about strength and conditioning as anyone, including people who majored in the the related fields in college. At least in how they relate to Martial Arts and fighting. But you started the OP with "physical fitness" That's a big field and a big part of strength and conditioning, as I'm sure you know. And keep up the good training and squats and the like, but I urge you to seek out older guys who still do that kind of training and still compete in it. They will have a lot to offer you - because you ain't going to be in your twenties for long.

I know about your boxing and wrestling, both of which I love. But how many Martial Artists have you been around? Not students who've trained for six months, but actual Martial Artists? At least related to "Why do martial artists in general (emphasis IN GENERAL), traditional or MMA, know so little about the science of strength and conditioning".

Where does that view come from? If not from actually training with a lot of Martial Arts Instructor/trainers/whatever, then where? Something you've observed? Read about, what?

 

[Paul_D]

This is debatable. If two martial artists with the same bodyweight and build and height were tested for the power of, let's say their spinning back kick, and these two martial artists are equally adept at spinning back kick technique, the stronger martial artist will hit harder. That's an unmistakable fact.

I don't quite understand this, if they are the same height, weight, build, how is one stronger than the other?

 

[Zombocalypse]

Bee, I guess it would depend on what Martial Artists you've trained with. Many of the Martial Artists I know have as much experience and knowledge about strength and conditioning as anyone, including people who majored in the the related fields in college. At least in how they relate to Martial Arts and fighting. But you started the OP with "physical fitness" That's a big field and a big part of strength and conditioning, as I'm sure you know. And keep up the good training and squats and the like, but I urge you to seek out older guys who still do that kind of training and still compete in it. They will have a lot to offer you - because you ain't going to be in your twenties for long.

I know about your boxing and wrestling, both of which I love. But how many Martial Artists have you been around? Not students who've trained for six months, but actual Martial Artists? At least related to "Why do martial artists in general (emphasis IN GENERAL), traditional or MMA, know so little about the science of strength and conditioning".

Where does that view come from? If not from actually training with a lot of Martial Arts Instructor/trainers/whatever, then where? Something you've observed? Read about, what?

The view came from the internet and TV. An example would be Mayweather (on TV) punching the air with light dumbbells instead of doing direct shoulder training, bodybuilding style. Even if bodybuilding is not Mayweather's goal, bodybuilding-style training with a modification to suit his purpose (shoulder endurance) would be ultimately more superior than punching the air with light dumbbells.

Another one would be a certain fighter I saw on TV too. He was an amateur but was competitive. It was an episode in some MMA show that I forgot the title of. He was doing "backyard training" with push ups. There's nothing wrong with push ups, but he was doing it in the following way: There were two dumbbells on the floor. He knelt down and held both dumbbells (the dumbbells weren't round. They had a straight surface, making them "stick" to the ground.) with his hands and began doing push ups that way. All well and good, but every time he pushed his body up, he'd do a row (a pulling movement), pulling one dumbbell up, and then doing a push up again. He alternated which of the two dumbbells he'd lift every time he pushed himself up (nothing wrong with that). I've seen that done in a gym before and I think it's a stupid exercise. I can elaborate why I think that if you want me to.

Another one was Anderson Silva doing ballistic (explosive/speed-oriented) bench presses with a Smith machine barbell while lying on the floor. A stupid and pointless exercise as well. I can elaborate why if you want me to.

Another one would be Rich "Ace" Franklin (or someone close, I'm not 100% if it was really him.) doing circuit training. Circuit training sucks. I used to train my mother in an apartment gym with circuits, and looking back, I can honestly say I'm ashamed of what I did. I could've done a better job and just made her do straight sets.

And then you get the countless martial artists all over the world who absolutely renounce lifting weights, saying stupid **** like "It'll make you slow" or "It'll make you less flexible" (the latter has a grain of truth to it. But JUST A GRAIN.).

And lastly, this video...

Beijing 2008 Martial Arts Training Camp: SHUAI JIAO SPECIAL

(There's some good stuff in that video, but the one I want to point out are the exercises these martial artists were doing that involved those cement weights and that light barbell. I can think of a million other ways to give you a better, more strengthening workout. Workouts that will benefit your martial arts,)

 

[Zombocalypse]

I don't quite understand this, if they are the same height, weight, build, how is one stronger than the other?

Your ignorance proves my point. Please don't take offense with what I'm about to say.

You're (at least likely) a martial artist and you know nothing about strength training...

Weight training is more than just muscle and physique. It also has to do with your brain and central nervous system (CNS). Our muscles are made up of motor units, which are made up of fibers. Every motor unit is connected to a nerve that is connected with our CNSs. Our CNSs are the ones responsible for activating our motor units to fire. When the motor units fire or get activated, our muscles flex. The more motor units you can activate, the stronger the force your muscle produces.

Strong people are not only bulky. They also have the ability to activate more motor units compared to the untrained beginner. That is key. This concept is something that I like to call "neuromuscular efficiency." There is a reason the sport of powerlifting and weightlifting exist. And there is a reason why despite competing against athletes of the same size and weight, they'd lift bigger weights or smaller weights compared to the others instead of having the same level of strength.

This knowledge is Powerlifting 101.