A serious question to adept martial artists about physical fitness...

[Buka]

The view came from the internet and TV. An example would be Mayweather (on TV) punching the air with light dumbbells instead of doing direct shoulder training, bodybuilding style. Even if bodybuilding is not Mayweather's goal, bodybuilding-style training with a modification to suit his purpose (shoulder endurance) would be ultimately more superior than punching the air with light dumbbells.

Another one would be a certain fighter I saw on TV too. He was an amateur but was competitive. It was an episode in some MMA show that I forgot the title of. He was doing "backyard training" with push ups. There's nothing wrong with push ups, but he was doing it in the following way: There were two dumbbells on the floor. He knelt down and held both dumbbells (the dumbbells weren't round. They had a straight surface, making them "stick" to the ground.) with his hands and began doing push ups that way. All well and good, but every time he pushed his body up, he'd do a row (a pulling movement), pulling one dumbbell up, and then doing a push up again. He alternated which of the two dumbbells he'd lift every time he pushed himself up (nothing wrong with that). I've seen that done in a gym before and I think it's a stupid exercise. I can elaborate why I think that if you want me to.

Another one was Anderson Silva doing ballistic (explosive/speed-oriented) bench presses with a Smith machine barbell while lying on the floor. A stupid and pointless exercise as well. I can elaborate why if you want me to.

Another one would be Rich "Ace" Franklin (or someone close, I'm not 100% if it was really him.) doing circuit training. Circuit training sucks. I used to train my mother in an apartment gym with circuits, and looking back, I can honestly say I'm ashamed of what I did. I could've done a better job and just made her do straight sets.

And then you get the countless martial artists all over the world who absolutely renounce lifting weights, saying stupid **** like "It'll make you slow" or "It'll make you less flexible" (the latter has a grain of truth to it. But JUST A GRAIN.).

And lastly, this video...

Beijing 2008 Martial Arts Training Camp: SHUAI JIAO SPECIAL

(There's some good stuff in that video, but the one I want to point out are the exercises these martial artists were doing that involved those cement weights and that light barbell. I can think of a million other ways to give you a better, more strengthening workout. Workouts that will benefit your martial arts,)

As for shoulders and how they apply to fighting or boxing, what would you say is the boxing exercise that most builds the shoulders? I ask because there is a specificity to exercises - as how they actually apply to high level fighting.

If I were to debate you on the proper ways, form, diet, benefits, rest periods yada yada of heavy squats based on what I've see on TV and the internet, but never actually did them myself, you would reply.....?

And, if you put even a tenth of the effort developing social skills as you have squatting, you would be rewarded in ways you aren't even aware of yet.

 

[Paul_D]

Weight training is more than just muscle and physique. It also has to do with your brain and central nervous system (CNS). Our muscles are made up of motor units, which are made up of fibers. Every motor unit is connected to a nerve that is connected with our CNSs. Our CNSs are the ones responsible for activating our motor units to fire. When the motor units fire or get activated, our muscles flex. The more motor units you can activate, the stronger the force your muscle produces.

And you don't think MA training works the brain and the CNS allowing you to activate more motor units?

 

[Zombocalypse]

If I were to debate you on the proper ways, form, diet, benefits, rest periods yada yada of heavy squats based on what I've see on TV and the internet, but never actually did them myself, you would reply.....?

I'd reply. Yes. And I'd give credit where credit is due. Just because you don't squat doesn't mean you don't know about it. It really is just a matter of doing your homework. Information is neither expensive nor unobtainable.

Would I agree with you on what you are saying? That depends on whether or not I think you're right or wrong. But ultimately, I wouldn't dismiss your words.

This reminds me of something from Ed Coan. Ed Coan, the greatest powerlifter of all time, once advised that amateurs should be allowed to do whatever they want. That's because you never really know if this amateur might discover something groundbreaking that's unheard of before that may skyrocket his strength to new heights.

 

[Zombocalypse]

And you don't think MA training works the brain and the CNS allowing you to activate more motor units?

It does, to a very very VERY limited extent.

To push your punching power or kicking power to new heights, you have to get stronger first before anything else. Strength is the foundation of speed. You won't be able to lift a light weight fast if you're not strong enough to even merely lift it at all.

Actual martial arts training is the icing on the cake. Weight-lifting is the base.

P. S. = To hit hard, velocity must be high.

 

[Paul_D]

It does, to a very very VERY limited extent.

That's interesting, what is your source for this?

To push your punching power or kicking power to new heights, you have to get stronger first before anything else.

Well no you don't, you need good technique. The two people that have hit me the hardest in training were both smaller than me, and I'm onmy 165cm. They didn't have what you consider to be power, and in fact one of them was female and had never been anywhere near weights in her life. What she could do however was get all of her body weight into her strikes because her technique was so good.

You are also missing one key point in all of this. The key to winning an MMA fight is not to have the most powerful punch, as points are not awarded for power they are awarded for significant strikes. If you are in a 25 minute title fight you need to conserve energy, not put all your power into the first round. As Connor McGregor says, precision beats power and I think he's a better MAs than we will ever be. Yes you will win some fights if you concentrate your training on developing powerful punches and maybe TKO your first few opponents, but it's noy going to make you the best MA's around. And that's also why MMA trainers train their fighters the way they do.

 

[JR 137]

It does, to a very very VERY limited extent.

To push your punching power or kicking power to new heights, you have to get stronger first before anything else. Strength is the foundation of speed. You won't be able to lift a light weight fast if you're not strong enough to even merely lift it at all.

Actual martial arts training is the icing on the cake. Weight-lifting is the base.

P. S. = To hit hard, velocity must be high.

Elite fighters’ hands speed tops out at a certain point. As counterintuitive as it seems, there’s little different between a trained lightweight and heavyweight’s handspeed. The real difference in punching power is effective mass used. It’s buried somewhere in here...
Biomechanics of the head for Olympic boxer punches to the face

Throwing around effective mass is all about technique, not raw strength. This is a skill. Effective fighting is all about being able to hit someone at the right time with the right strike at the right target, and not getting knocked out in the process. This is all skill. Skill is the base. Strength & conditioning is the “icing on the cake.” A very thick icing, but icing nonetheless. I won’t argue strength and conditioning aren’t crucial; but it begins with skill. Being the strongest and fittest guy in the world won’t win you a fight if you have no idea what you’re doing. Being a highly skilled guy will carry you a lot further.

My problem is too many people rely on skill as an excuse to not put any time into strength and conditioning. Saying it’s irreverent is absurd; it’s laziness. But the opposite is equally absurd.

 

[MA_Student]

Aside from what I just mentioned literally right before this post?

I've been in 13 street fights from my pre-teens to my early 20's. REAL fights, where the enemy had REAL intent to hurt me. Believe me, I know. lol

I also have a little bit of boxing experience in high school. I learned early on that I'm a damn good "swarmer", or I think that's what they call them... Basically, the style of boxing where you try to get up close and throw hooks and uppercuts, as opposed to peppering guys with jabs from the outside. I seriously hurt a guy in a sparring session with that style. Enough for him to call a time out. lol

Ah okay so basically nothing then....you seem proud that you have been in fights and happy that you hurt someone....so basically your ignorant about martial arts on a martial arts forum and calling everyone else ignorant....okay

 

[hoshin1600]

everything you need to know summed up in a few hours. pay attention and you might learn something.

 

[jobo]

It does, to a very very VERY limited extent.

To push your punching power or kicking power to new heights, you have to get stronger first before anything else. Strength is the foundation of speed. You won't be able to lift a light weight fast if you're not strong enough to even merely lift it at all.

Actual martial arts training is the icing on the cake. Weight-lifting is the base.

P. S. = To hit hard, velocity must be high.

i agree to some extent with what you are saying, some maist have a low view of " strength training" seeking to develop techneque at the expense of being athletic.

but it stops there, being strong in power lifting doesn't do much to develop you athletic abilities, beyond building your base strengh,it can even work against your all round athletic abilities.

I'm not saying you shouldnt look to be as strong as you reasonably can, rather developing your cns to run, jump and move quickly is equally important as it endurance of strengh rather than just brute one off strengh

fighting is one of the most ardious physical events, up there with tri athletes events, its all round conditioning you need not just brute strengh

as such you need to train all the rep ranges, yes in the five to ten for strengh development, but also in the 10 to 20 and the,twenty to 50 and beyond.

then you want speed and agility and balance and reactions, and your,aerobic capacity. Just being able to dead lift 400lbs and bench 300 is only the beginning of physical fitness.

I'm not sure about you telling FM he is doing it wrong??????

punching with light dumbells is a good speed developer, I'm sure he has already sorted his shoulder strengh

 

[jobo]

Aside from what I just mentioned literally right before this post?

I've been in 13 street fights from my pre-teens to my early 20's. REAL fights, where the enemy had REAL intent to hurt me. Believe me, I know. lol

I also have a little bit of boxing experience in high school. I learned early on that I'm a damn good "swarmer", or I think that's what they call them... Basically, the style of boxing where you try to get up close and throw hooks and uppercuts, as opposed to peppering guys with jabs from the outside. I seriously hurt a guy in a sparring session with that style. Enough for him to call a time out. lol

really 13 fights in 10 years, i racked up . Twice that many before i was 10, i stopped counting,after that, must have been two a week in my teenage years,

 

[MA_Student]

It does, to a very very VERY limited extent.

To push your punching power or kicking power to new heights, you have to get stronger first before anything else. Strength is the foundation of speed. You won't be able to lift a light weight fast if you're not strong enough to even merely lift it at all.

Actual martial arts training is the icing on the cake. Weight-lifting is the base.

P. S. = To hit hard, velocity must be high.

Um no just no...in martial arts the weights are the least important thing you frankly don't need to be lifting weights at all...you can do body weight exercises which in my opinion are more useful for martial than weights. Without the martial art techique you won't last long at all. Look at the early ufcs how well did the big muscular guys do against the skinny technical guy

 

[jobo]

Um no just no...in martial arts the weights are the least important thing you frankly don't need to be lifting weights at all...you can do body weight exercises which in my opinion are more useful for martial than weights. Without the martial art techique you won't last long at all. Look at the early ufcs how well did the big muscular guys do against the skinny technical guy

body weight is what i mostly do, but body weights is lifting WEIGHTS, but there are some big holes where using actual weights is far more convenient and possibly more efficient way of building strengh and conditioning , building progressive over load is quite complicated with BW . and for instance over head lifting and squatting are hard to replicate with body weight. I'm betting FM has a weight room at his disposal

 

[skribs]

I mean, yes, let's criticize Floyd Mayweather, he's only 50-0 in boxing. Anderson Silva, too. He's only 34-8 in professional MMA.

Their workout programs are obviously terrible.

 

[oftheherd1]

A serious question to adept martial artists about physical fitness...



I'll just be blunt with it. But please don't think I'm trolling. I am being sincere here and I am honestly curious.

Why do martial artists in general (emphasis IN GENERAL), traditional or MMA, know so little about the science of strength and conditioning?

I'll give you an example... Many many months ago, either here or in another martial arts forum, I saw a very classic, very uneducated response with regards to me commenting about certain martial artists in a youtube video having great physiques. I said that I thought they have great physiques, and I got this sort of response:

"Martial arts training builds a lean, functional physique as opposed to useless bulky muscles."

Any person experienced enough in the field of physical fitness would tell you how uneducated and amateurish such a comment is. I know, because I'm one of them. I was a competitive powerlifter back in my teens and have never struggled with matters of strength training.

But often, both on TV and the internet, I see dozens upon dozens of strength and conditioning coaches employing stupid approaches to their athletes.

Why is this? Is martial arts so skill-oriented that even with absolute shitty strength and conditioning, skilled martial artists would still dominate?

Your thoughts are appreciated. And also, I'm not trolling (ignore my avatar). I'm just really curious about this.

I got through the first page and got tired. You have been given some good answers, but you started out not really wanting any, so you don't seen to recognize them. Interestingly you do note that many strength and conditioning coaches don't know what they are doing. Do you then wish to lump all martial artists and their schools together without thinking there may be some of what even we call McDojos?

But, why do you as a strength conditioner worry about martial artists? Apparently you don't study any martial arts, or you would be more likely know the answer; power lifting and martial arts don't share a lot in study methods, since they wish to accomplish unrelated goals.

Oh, another thing in your premise that is really silly is to say a skilled martial artist who has bad strength and conditioning, in general, an oxymoron. But I would say a well trained martial artist, who has for some reason let (or had to let) his strength and conditioning lapse would still have the advantage, simply because he would know attacks you would not likely expect and therefore be able to defend against. 'Nuff said.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Many martial practitioner's and mma coaches know a lot about exercise. Your premise that they do not is just not factual. You may have run into a few uneducated folks out there but that does not mean everyone is. Heck we have on this board a gentleman who was the strength and conditioning coach for LSU and has a PHD in the field. Many martial practitioner's are looking to the cutting edge technology in the kinesiology field. Generalized statements that you have made are just ignorant.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Possible. But I contend that I'd make a better strength and conditioning coach than A LOT (and I do mean A LOT) of MMA coaches out there. My expertise has the foundation of theoretical knowledge plus practical experience. Like I said, I was a competitve powerlifter as a teen. I have, with very minimal training, have achieved a 405-pound Olympic style, pause-at-the-bottom squat. If I took this strength coaching thing seriously, I'd make it big. I know I can. It's just that I don't have the work ethic for it.

Let us please not question my credentials and just focus on the topic at hand, which is: Why are many MMA strength and conditioning coaches so ignorant?

Powerlifting has very different needs from MMA and other martial arts. Your expertise in the one doesn't necessarily make you a good choice for the other.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The pinnacle of strength training is barbell lifting.

Upon what do you base that conclusion?

 

[jks9199]

Possible. But I contend that I'd make a better strength and conditioning coach than A LOT (and I do mean A LOT) of MMA coaches out there. My expertise has the foundation of theoretical knowledge plus practical experience. Like I said, I was a competitve powerlifter as a teen. I have, with very minimal training, have achieved a 405-pound Olympic style, pause-at-the-bottom squat. If I took this strength coaching thing seriously, I'd make it big. I know I can. It's just that I don't have the work ethic for it.

Let us please not question my credentials and just focus on the topic at hand, which is: Why are many MMA strength and conditioning coaches so ignorant?

Actually, let's take your credentials in hand, both as a strength & conditioning coach, and a judge of martial arts training. You've brought them into the game, so what are they? Do you hold any certifications, licenses, teaching credentials?

Sure, there are lots of traditional exercises in martial arts that aren't that good, especially compared to modern techniques and methods of training. Lots of them were developed by trial and error, in environments without much. Of course, some of them are actually pretty darn good -- for their purpose. Which isn't always what's obvious. There are some downright dangerous and bad practices that people do, too. But there are also lots of martial artists out there with actual credentials as sports trainers (both medical and "coach" to find a word to distinguish the two) or who are serious competitors in bodybuilding or power lifting, too... Those are simply different aspects of their training...

But, y'know what? I see just as many bad things or crazy things done in the gym. Whether it's the guy who's doing "curls" that begins each rep by rocking on his toes and swinging back with his whole body, or the person who can't even figure out the right way to get into a piece of equipment... they're all out there.

 

[jks9199]

T
A vast majority of boxers would benefit more from direct shoulder work bodybuilding style than swinging light dumbbells in the air. The carryover is strong enough that despite the lack of specificity in training, it will still be greatly beneficial.

Of course, you may not realize what the goal of the exercise is, and I think you're underestimating the importance of specificity in training... Certainly, shoulder exercises can strengthen the shoulder and help prevent injury. But practicing (lightly) weighted punches can strengthen the specific muscles and work the specific kinesic chains involved in punching, and replicate PUNCHING with controlled, added stress... Kind of like a runner might work on the muscles in his quads in the gym, then do form drills... before sprinting with a drag chute to add resistance to his run. Or football linemen still hit the sled, even though they certainly spend a few hours a week in a gym, under the eyes of strength and conditioning coaches...

 

[Andrew Green]

The pinnacle of strength training is barbell lifting. And I am a man who specializes in that...

Not in all contexts.

You seem to want to apply one set of measurements to everything, and it just doesn't work.

Sports conditioning is different then pure strength training, and while I would agree that a barbell is useful, it's not the pinnacle of strength training in all sports.

Most sports generate power through rotational movement, barbells don't simulate that at all. You are very correct that a huge chunk of strength is CNS based, however in a barbell as the base training regime you are always pushing straight, pulling straight and always on a up / down plain of motion. In sports (including martial arts) this is not how strength is applied. More often it is applied on a horizontal plain, or a rotational plain, and most often a combination of those.

Power in sports is also most often explosive, barbell training is rarely done explosively (Olympic lifts are a obvious exception)

You also knock planks a fair bit in favour of sit ups. Yes, sit ups will overload the muscles more effectively. But it's a different sort of action, sit ups are about creating motion, planks are about maintaining posture. Like a dumbbell side bend vs a one sided farmers walk. Both are useful and serve different purposes.

Another thing I think you are overlooking is that in a sports context a lot of the conditioning work should be done for injury prevention during the actual sport, not necessarily strength training for the activity. A simple example would be if you are a boxer you might want to work rowing exercises and shoulder stability exercises to "correct" for all the explosive force exerted in "pushing" sort of actions. If you are a golfer everything you do is one sided, you'll want to correct for that in S&C to avoid future problems in the hips, shoulders and knees.

You are correct, there is a lack of S&C knowledge in martial arts as a whole, but that is the same in every sport. We also get people that have S&C knowledge in another sport try to apply it directly too the martial arts, and that doesn't always work. There are some really excellent S&C coaches in combat sports though, and other sports and I think most would not put the barbell as the pinnacle of the way they train athletes.