Youth Black Belts

[dancingalone]

I have never trained in TKD or any Asian martial Art...I have extensive training in Military Arts and Self defense...My thoughts on youth poom belts have evolved over the last year

So what is your current position?

I find your comment referring to me as only a parent quite interesting....I find my job as a parent is the most important one that I have...I am sure/hope that you feel that the role of a parent is an important one....

Ah, it's psychology amateur hour where we can analyse each other based on postings on a message board! We can invoke Jung and Freud and throw in some Dr. Spock too. What fun!

Or not.

My daughter is a 16 year old First Dan and MY Son is a 13 year old 2nd Poom and they are a Credit to Martial Arts as those on this board who know them would attest.

You don't think if you are were a martial artist yourself, that your own thoughts and opinions wouldn't be somewhat tempered by your own experience? Military service isn't quite the same thing as being a martial artist after all, although for the record I certainly am not denigrating our soldiers.

 

[Gorilla]

So what is your current position?

If you really read my posts you would see that i have always had some questions about youth Black belts (Poom Belts). My Son is really always been the one in question. For the record I just looked at my kids poom cert he was 8 year 1 month old when he got his first poom and was 9 years and 8 months when he got his second poom. He is currently 13 years old and will test for 3rd Poom in August and my daughter will test for Second Dan on the same day.

I really want to say that he is to young but his dedication and hard work keep telling me that he is not. Both my kids are committed to a lifetime in Martial Arts in the end when he is a 50 Year Old Martial Artist this will all be moot.

 

[ATC]

A kid is just as capable of learning anything an adult is. For the most part kids have more time to even become better than any adult that is just starting.

A kid that plays football (or any sport for that matter) early on will be better than any adult that tries to take up the sport in adulthood. That is why when doing anything physical it is best to start young, to build the need muscle memory to be on top.

Once an adult you only have so much time before you start to decline physically. Most adults don't have the time needed to develop the skills needed to be world class.

Put in the time and effort and show that you are proficient for the amount of time and effort put in and you deserve whatever it is you are working for. Regardless of age.

If kids can't have black belt then you should eliminate the elderly, handicapped and anyone else that is limited physically. I look at 60 year olds everyday that work hard for their age but will never be great or even good for that matter. But it is all relative.

 

[Tez3]

A kid is just as capable of learning anything an adult is. For the most part kids have more time to even become better than any adult that is just starting.

A kid that plays football (or any sport for that matter) early on will be better than any adult that tries to take up the sport in adulthood. That is why when doing anything physical it is best to start young, to build the need muscle memory to be on top.

Once an adult you only have so much time before you start to decline physically. Most adults don't have the time needed to develop the skills needed to be world class.

Put in the time and effort and show that you are proficient for the amount of time and effort put in and you deserve whatever it is you are working for. Regardless of age.

If kids can't have black belt then you should eliminate the elderly, handicapped and anyone else that is limited physically. I look at 60 year olds everyday that work hard for their age but will never be great or even good for that matter. But it is all relative.

So if whats good for adults is good for children and the reason is that they learn quicker why don't we lower the age of sexual consent to three or four? Why don't we have child soldiers? Sgts and officers under 10? Send them off to war to be killed and maimed?

The reason we don't is that consent to have sexual intercourse takes maturity, thats why the age of consent is usally never under 16. We don't have children in the forces because while they might learn everything easily and quickly they aren't mature enough to lead troops into battle, martial arts is no different, it's MARTIAL arts, little different from learning about warfare and fighting, leading troops and being a mature person.

If of course your children do that tippy tappy Irish dancing, no Bunkai, point scoring, child care, gymnastic so called martial arts you're probably right. the people who object to children having black belts are martial artists in the traditional sense of the word. It's the difference between playing at being Spiderman and being in the US Marine Corps.

 

[Tez3]

Ah it would seem you would agree with me, children can't do a lot of stuff in martial arts that is best left to the adults. If they can't do this then they shouldn't have high ranking black belts.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=87191&page=2

"It all depends on what your definition of TKD is. If you are thinking what you see in the Olympics or what is taught to kids then I see your point. However if you are talking about the stuff that the Korean military does or what you get taught at 4th or 5th Dan level (at least in our dojang) then I don't see your point.

Most of the SD stuff taught is pretty brutal. Most of the counter to any aggression are killing techniques and would land most in jail. Even when practicing some of these techniques I will ask do we really want to do it this way? Then I am shown how to apply it to contain or hold someone until help arrives. But the way we are taught is not nice and most people don't even want to practice it because it hurts and hurts bad.

I am all for being flipped, punched (even in the face), taken down to the ground, and even joint locked. But this stuff is none of that. It is all soft area spot strikes and grabs first finished with some face smashing off the ground, windpipe crushing, neck breaking type technique. And it is all done in the first 1 or 2 moves. There is no playing around.

When we practice we are told to use some force and get use to the pain as we will build a tolerance. This stuff hurts an hurts bad, even if not done at real speed. Yes we may now have a better tolerance that any mugger or attacker but in the class when everyone has close to the same tolerance you just up the ante a bit and still pain, and not the kind you go and put some ice on. When you have dug your fingers into my lymph nodes of the neck area ice does not help.

Again no kids or color belts (in our dojang) get to practice or even see this stuff. Only instructor level and any high ranking BB are allowed to take this class, not many. Oh and yes our GM use to teach some PD officers this as well. "

If the children have high ranking black belts but can't do this why give them the belts? You teach the children different stuff from the adults therefore they aren't true Dan grades or black belts.

 

[ATC]

Ah it would seem you would agree with me, children can't do a lot of stuff in martial arts that is best left to the adults. If they can't do this then they shouldn't have high ranking black belts.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=87191&page=2

"It all depends on what your definition of TKD is. If you are thinking what you see in the Olympics or what is taught to kids then I see your point. However if you are talking about the stuff that the Korean military does or what you get taught at 4th or 5th Dan level (at least in our dojang) then I don't see your point.

Most of the SD stuff taught is pretty brutal. Most of the counter to any aggression are killing techniques and would land most in jail. Even when practicing some of these techniques I will ask do we really want to do it this way? Then I am shown how to apply it to contain or hold someone until help arrives. But the way we are taught is not nice and most people don't even want to practice it because it hurts and hurts bad.

I am all for being flipped, punched (even in the face), taken down to the ground, and even joint locked. But this stuff is none of that. It is all soft area spot strikes and grabs first finished with some face smashing off the ground, windpipe crushing, neck breaking type technique. And it is all done in the first 1 or 2 moves. There is no playing around.

When we practice we are told to use some force and get use to the pain as we will build a tolerance. This stuff hurts an hurts bad, even if not done at real speed. Yes we may now have a better tolerance that any mugger or attacker but in the class when everyone has close to the same tolerance you just up the ante a bit and still pain, and not the kind you go and put some ice on. When you have dug your fingers into my lymph nodes of the neck area ice does not help.

Again no kids or color belts (in our dojang) get to practice or even see this stuff. Only instructor level and any high ranking BB are allowed to take this class, not many. Oh and yes our GM use to teach some PD officers this as well. "

If the children have high ranking black belts but can't do this why give them the belts? You teach the children different stuff from the adults therefore they aren't true Dan grades or black belts.

This applies to adults as well. No adult color belts either. Only 4th Dan Black belts and up. Not that these people could not learn it, but that they need to make sure anyone learning it has there basics down. This includes anyone, even adults. You can be in your 50's but if not a 4th Dan then not for you.

We don't put kids in the military but some countries do. That is just our culture. Just as you can find child prostitutes in every country. Just because we don't condone it does not mean it does not happen or that they don't know what is happening.

Just like the girl that tried to sail around the world at 16. She did not make it but others her age did. Many adults did not make that trip either. Some say she was too young but that is because we view death at a young age as tragic. But really death unnecessary at any age is tragic.

 

[Tez3]

This applies to adults as well. No adult color belts either. Only 4th Dan Black belts and up. Not that these people could not learn it, but that they need to make sure anyone learning it has there basics down. This includes anyone, even adults. You can be in your 50's but if not a 4th Dan then not for you.

We don't put kids in the military but some countries do. That is just our culture. Just as you can find child prostitutes in every country. Just because we don't condone it does not mean it does not happen or that they don't know what is happening.

Just like the girl that tried to sail around the world at 16. She did not make it but others her age did. Many adults did not make that trip either. Some say she was too young but that is because we view death at a young age as tragic. But really death unnecessary at any age is tragic.

No, not an argument. You have a different syllabus for children, you said it yourself as stuff taught for the Olympics and children, says so in your first line, it's not full on martial arts and therefore the children shouldn't have a black belt or Dan grade. You aren't teaching children the same basics, you're watering it down. If you thought children could do the same as adults you would teach them the same things. Everything you say about children being the same as adults is nonsense if you aren't teaching them the same thing and by your admission they aren't learning the adult syllabus.

Have children as soldiers is not approved by any civilised country, it's banned by the UN ( they may not do any good by they have tried not shrugged their shoulders as you do and say it's others culture) and active measures are made to stop this horrible thing, likewise with child prostitution, no one in their right minds can accept this and should do everything they can to stop it regardless of culture.

Teach children the same as adults, in the same way, same full on contact, same intensity of training and then tell me they can have blackbelts at 6 and 4th Dans at 10....and then be allowed to participate in your SD classes, if they are 4th Dans why not?


Or carry on teaching age appropriate techniques and age appropriate training as we do and don't even pretend they can be black belts and Dan grades at such an early age. They will be the better martial artists for it.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I will reiterate my own position on the subject. I think my quote is from back on like page five.

This why I posted this thread. I hear allot on BBS that under 10 year old Black Belts are not deserving. I think the the real answer is some are and some are not but the potential for younger BB to earn that rank is possible no matter what you call them(Poom or Dan).

It is not a question of deserving. If a ten year old meets the criteria set forth by his or her school, then he or she is deserving by the standards of that particular school. A poom rank student technically should wear a poom belt and a poom dobok: a half black/half red belt and a dobok with half red/half black colar. Many schools choose to put them in black belts. That is a school decision.

I draw a distinction between the rank and the belt color. If you are a poom rank, you are not a yudanja. If you are a dan rank holder, then you are. What color belt and dobok the school permits is between you and that school.

The reason some kids train with adults is because the youth level training is not enough.

Some kids mix well in an adult class, some do not. It also depends on the nature of the class.

The criteria that i posted is to high. That why I posted it!!! To get the discussion going

Actually it is not too high. Personally, that is what I feel the blackbelt criteria should be. But different teachers and schools have different philosophies from my own.

I do not penalize the child for earning a black belt in a school. I would never tell a kid that he or she is not deserving just because they are a kid.

I do think that the instructor is doing them a disservice and look down on the practice. But that is a different story.

What is the correct criteria for a (Poom Belt or Black Belt) if you are going to give them to 10 year olds and not bring down the standards for Black Belts of TKD in general

Poom requirements are essentially the same as adult requirements, but the kids do not get out and spar against an adult going full boar; they spar against other kids and break thinner boards.

The poom signifies that the child has learned the kyu grade material but does not have the maturity, both physical and/or mental, to take on a dan rank. No shame in that; they are kids and are not done maturing.

Daniel

My position has not changed.

The WTF uses belt rankings as part of their competition bracketing, along with gender, age, and weight. Within that setting, the ten year old with a black belt is not a problem: He or she will be bracketed with other ten year olds of the same gender and relative size, not with Daehan Park (watch Best of the best if you do not get the reference).

I think that so long as a ten year old is not given delusions of cinematic grandeur that his or her black belt makes them somehow able to take on an army of unsuspecting thugs, or more appropriately, an adult predator, then there really is not a major issue.

I think that the biggest concern that many of us have is that often schools put black belts on kids as a means of bilking parents out of a large chunk of change. That really has nothing to do, however, with whether or not children should be put into black belts.

Daniel

 

[terryl965]

Come on people this has been breaten to death by all, why can't we just agree that no-matter what side of the fence you are on, a youth BB is just that a youth BB whether it is sport or regular classes. I mean we give out poom belts but they know it is not a Dan rank and later in life if they stay with me they need to learn and test for there Dan rank. Lets all say these two words who's cares!!!!

 

[dancingalone]

Come on people this has been breaten to death by all, why can't we just agree that no-matter what side of the fence you are on, a youth BB is just that a youth BB whether it is sport or regular classes. I mean we give out poom belts but they know it is not a Dan rank and later in life if they stay with me they need to learn and test for there Dan rank. Lets all say these two words who's cares!!!!

KKW poom belts automatically convert upon reaching the minimum age for a full dan, do they not? If so, than the poom belt is a mere semantic. It effectively is a 'real' black belt.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

KKW poom belts automatically convert upon reaching the minimum age for a full dan, do they not?

I don't think that it is automatic. I believe that there is paperwork to be signed off on by the student's instructor.

If so, than the poom belt is a mere semantic. It effectively is a 'real' black belt.

It would be less of a semantic of the KKW required poom grades to wear a poom belt and poom dobok.

Frankly, as Terry says, who cares about the belt? Just teach your students, kids or adults, well and don't move them onto the next stage of the curriculum until they have become solid in their current curriculum. Simply doing that would eliminate probably 90% of the problem.

Daniel

 

[Gorilla]

Come on people this has been breaten to death by all, why can't we just agree that no-matter what side of the fence you are on, a youth BB is just that a youth BB whether it is sport or regular classes. I mean we give out poom belts but they know it is not a Dan rank and later in life if they stay with me they need to learn and test for there Dan rank. Lets all say these two words who's cares!!!!

I agree!!!! But nothing gets people angrier that a 7 year old Poom belt!!!this thread always get the discussion going!!!! This is my War and Peace!!! My Epic Controversial Thread!!!!

 

[Tez3]

I agree!!!! But nothing gets people angrier that a 7 year old Poom belt!!!this thread always get the discussion going!!!! This is my War and Peace!!! My Epic Controversial Thread!!!!

Angry? No, Scornful? Yes. I don't like seeing parents etc being mislead and possibly ripped off when their 6 year old is made a 3rd Dan and they think their child is a fuly fledged martial artist. It saddens me and thats why I care. I want the best for all children and this simply isn't it.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Gorilla,

Please read the terms of service. This...

AHHHH!!!! Old memories!!! I think that this was one of the most viewed and commented on threads on this forum...I made some people pretty angry...nothing makes people angrier than a 7 year old poom belt....read it is an epic thread...

...I was not going to comment on this until you posted this....

I agree!!!! But nothing gets people angrier that a 7 year old Poom belt!!!

....which indicates a desire not for productive discussion but to be purposefully disruptive. It also violates this:

From 4.1 posting guidelines:

No "Trolling": Please do not post any topic that disrupts the peace and harmony of this board. Don't create meaningless threads with the sole purpose of starting a dispute. This includes messages in profiles, signatures and/or posting comments, which will intimidate, promote or generate hatred or flames among members.

And this...

this thread always get the discussion going!!!! This is my War and Peace!!! My Epic Controversial Thread!!!!

...violates this:

Also from 4.1 posting guidelines:

No senseless "Bumping": Please do not bump your request/help searching or other threads several times a day. Bumping can refer to posting useless information, making corrections or updates in a new post, posting one-liners or any other action to deliberately keep a thread hot or to bring it to the top of its forum. Moderators will use their discretion, depending on the nature of the post, as to whether to take action or not. Remember there are people who don't browse this board every hour. So do not bump a thread within 24h or too much even after 24 hours.

Your resurrecting of this thread violates both of these rules.

Daniel

 

[Tez3]

From 4.1 posting guidelines:

No "Trolling": Please do not post any topic that disrupts the peace and harmony of this board. Don't create meaningless threads with the sole purpose of starting a dispute. This includes messages in profiles, signatures and/or posting comments, which will intimidate, promote or generate hatred or flames among members.



Also from 4.1 posting guidelines:

No senseless "Bumping": Please do not bump your request/help searching or other threads several times a day. Bumping can refer to posting useless information, making corrections or updates in a new post, posting one-liners or any other action to deliberately keep a thread hot or to bring it to the top of its forum. Moderators will use their discretion, depending on the nature of the post, as to whether to take action or not. Remember there are people who don't browse this board every hour. So do not bump a thread within 24h or too much even after 24 hours.

Your resurrecting of this thread violates both of these rules.

Daniel

This is correct, we have different ideas on a lot of subjects but we don't discuss these specifically for others to 'enjoy' arguments or be entertained by differences of opinion.

 

[ATC]

From 4.1 posting guidelines:

No "Trolling": Please do not post any topic that disrupts the peace and harmony of this board. Don't create meaningless threads with the sole purpose of starting a dispute. This includes messages in profiles, signatures and/or posting comments, which will intimidate, promote or generate hatred or flames among members.

And this...

Also from 4.1 posting guidelines:

No senseless "Bumping": Please do not bump your request/help searching or other threads several times a day. Bumping can refer to posting useless information, making corrections or updates in a new post, posting one-liners or any other action to deliberately keep a thread hot or to bring it to the top of its forum. Moderators will use their discretion, depending on the nature of the post, as to whether to take action or not. Remember there are people who don't browse this board every hour. So do not bump a thread within 24h or too much even after 24 hours.

Your resurrecting of this thread violates both of these rules.

Daniel

I don't think he violated either of the guidelines. When this thread first was posted it was a valid topic that had quite a few strong debates with strong opinions by just about everyone. This is one of the largest threads clearly showing that everyone has strong feelings one way or another on this topic.

The bump was not a senseless one either. There was a new topic posted that mimiced this same thread and he deciced to bumb his thread for the OP of the other thread to read and reference. He did not do what the guideline stated at all when looking at it.

Just my opinion.

 

[cmassman]

I don't think he violated either of the guidelines. When this thread first was posted it was a valid topic that had quite a few strong debates with strong opinions by just about everyone. This is one of the largest threads clearly showing that everyone has strong feelings one way or another on this topic.

The bump was not a senseless one either. There was a new topic posted that mimiced this same thread and he deciced to bumb his thread for the OP of the other thread to read and reference. He did not do what the guideline stated at all when looking at it.

Just my opinion.

I agree with ATC I don't think Gorilla was doing anything on purpose to upset anyone. he just pointing out the fact that this was a highly debated topic that he started.

 

[dancingalone]

I don't really care one way or another, but Gorilla does have a track record of 'egging' things on occasionally. He likes to bait Twin Fist.

 

[terryl965]

KKW poom belts automatically convert upon reaching the minimum age for a full dan, do they not? If so, than the poom belt is a mere semantic. It effectively is a 'real' black belt.

No they do not automatically roll into a Dan rank, the proper paperwork needs to be filled out and then they re-issue the Dan rank. One thing with the KKWschools alot fo not require another test before doing the paperwork and submitting it. All my students and parents understand that when the time comes they need to take my adult BB test or find another school.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I don't think he violated either of the guidelines. When this thread first was posted it was a valid topic that had quite a few strong debates with strong opinions by just about everyone. This is one of the largest threads clearly showing that everyone has strong feelings one way or another on this topic.

I respectfully disagree.

And it had been done to death in identical threads prior to him starting it. Much of the reason for the size has to do with inflamatory comments, responses to said comments, perceived insults and responses to said perceived insults, not to mention a degree of moderation. Quantity does not in any way equal quality. Yes, some great responses and observations were made. But if you take out all of the posts that either flamed or responded to flaming, this thread would be much shorter.

The bump was not a senseless one either. There was a new topic posted that mimiced this same thread and he deciced to bumb his thread for the OP of the other thread to read and reference. He did not do what the guideline stated at all when looking at it.

Again, I respectfully disagree.

With a fresh thread on the same topic, the appropriate thing to do would have been to link this thread in a response on the more recent one. New threads on the same topic do not justify bumping. If he had new thoughts or insight into the topic, then yes, bringing it back up would have been perfectly appropriate. But to bump it just for the sake of getting attention is specifically against the bumping rule.

Just my opinion.

Twas a friendly heads up. Nothing more. He can take it however he wishes.

I have no personal beef with Gorilla, but I definitely feel that some ground need not be retrod. One of the reasons that the newer thread may have been started. Thread necro sometimes has the unintended consequence of reigniting personal disputes, particularly on a hot topic such as this.

Daniel