I wonder if that is how the frequent testing and younger and younger promotions got started.
Daniel
Youth Black Belts
- Thread starter Gorilla
- Start date
Daniel
not sure when it began but I am willing to bet it had to do with charging money for tests and deciding that people will pay to see little jhonny become a Black Belt
I was the one who started this thread. I think that it is a fascinating subject. I happened to have a child who is a Black Belt. I have not stated that my child is as good as an adult. I have stated that he trains as hard as an adult and that he trains with adults. I tend to agree that a child should not have a Black Belt. I think that 15 is a minimum. Having said that we have TKD culture that grants Black(poom) belts to young kids. My son competes at the highest level for a kid his size and weight if they call that a black belt then he should fight in that division. I don't care what they call it but to have him fight Red belts would be grossly unfair to kids in that division. He has 8 years of training and 200 fights fighting since he was 6 1/2 yep 30 fights per year). His experience level and skill is way above red belts his age 12. With the current state of affairs you really don't have a choice but to compete as a black belt if you want to fight the best.
CoryKS
Senior Master
Meh. Completing a marathon is an achievement, but more and more people do it each year. On the running forums, you'll now find people stating that anyone who doesn't finish a marathon in under 4 hours is not a "real" runner. I think that as any activity grows in popularity, those who derive prestige from doing what was once considered impossible for any but an elite few must establish arbitrary benchmarks to separate themselves from the also-rans.
This conversation has nothing to do with self-defense or watered-down standards. It's about ego gratification.
This conversation has nothing to do with self-defense or watered-down standards. It's about ego gratification.
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I think a lot of instructors (KKW/WTF-style, anyway) stopped using them because people got confused when a person under 15 years old was given a half red/half black belt. The problem was they didn't educate their students & parents about the place of &/or the reasoning behind the poom belt.
When I opened my school, I displayed a poom belt next to the dan rank & told students what it was. I also point out other schools who use the rank. At the 2008 World Hanmadang in Anaheim, CA, all of the schools from Korea had poom doboks & belts on their kids. It was great to be able to show my students high caliber competitors & say, "that's a poom student!" My students had an instant respect for the rank then.
I just signed up 2 kids who are here from Korea for 6 months on an exchange program. One is a nine year old second poom and the other is a 13 year old third poom. Both are excellent players and have good form. They wear poom belt's but told me that in their school in Korea they wear black. They only wear poom at events.
They also told me that most (in Korea) get the first poom in 12-18 months and nobody gets to test "in house" with their own instructor. All testing is done either at the KKW or at a formal test conducted by the KKW. I wonder how many would pass in the states if it was done like that?
They also told me that most (in Korea) get the first poom in 12-18 months and nobody gets to test "in house" with their own instructor. All testing is done either at the KKW or at a formal test conducted by the KKW. I wonder how many would pass in the states if it was done like that?
Well, I guess I will put my 2 cents in too for whatever it's worth.
The Youth Black Belt topic is very iffy for me too. I am not too sure what to think of it. I would like for them to not have a black belt until they are able to defend themselves in a real life situation against people within a couple years. Thats why in my school, for a long time, you have to be at least 13 to qualify.
Second, sparring is only a very very small aspect of a black belt. Just because a student wins a years worth of tournaments means he's a good sport tae-kwon-do-ist.. not particularly meaning he or she is ready to be a black belt. There is much more to it. This is one of the downfalls of competitions... because it makes people think they deserve the rank just because they win a lot.
Lastly, I think anything under 3 years if fast. I mean, a black belt should have some basic reactions that can be used in self-defense. 3 years of training is almost impossible to develop these reactions (especially for youths). Black belts should be able to know all aspects of the art and what every move is and does.
Overall, I think kids she be given something to recognize their achievement, but is not ready to be a black belt. It's like a kid that get a drivers liceanse. He might be able to drive perfectly before he's 16, but they are just not mature enough to handle the situation until 16. Similar with TaeKwonDo, sort of.
The Youth Black Belt topic is very iffy for me too. I am not too sure what to think of it. I would like for them to not have a black belt until they are able to defend themselves in a real life situation against people within a couple years. Thats why in my school, for a long time, you have to be at least 13 to qualify.
Second, sparring is only a very very small aspect of a black belt. Just because a student wins a years worth of tournaments means he's a good sport tae-kwon-do-ist.. not particularly meaning he or she is ready to be a black belt. There is much more to it. This is one of the downfalls of competitions... because it makes people think they deserve the rank just because they win a lot.
Lastly, I think anything under 3 years if fast. I mean, a black belt should have some basic reactions that can be used in self-defense. 3 years of training is almost impossible to develop these reactions (especially for youths). Black belts should be able to know all aspects of the art and what every move is and does.
Overall, I think kids she be given something to recognize their achievement, but is not ready to be a black belt. It's like a kid that get a drivers liceanse. He might be able to drive perfectly before he's 16, but they are just not mature enough to handle the situation until 16. Similar with TaeKwonDo, sort of.
Thomas Henderson
White Belt
First let me start off by saying that I study and teach Kajukenbo but earlier in my martial arts career i represented the S.W.A.M.A here in san diego. I competed my way up through countless city and state qualifiers and finally earned the right to compete in the Junior Olympics in Chicago in 1994.
Now with that being said as a child you may show qualities of a black belt but there is no way that anyone under the age of 16 is going to show the adult forward thinking that a black belt should have. Does that mean that someone under the age of 16 cannot be a black belt? No that is not what I am saying. In my art we promote students who are underage to a junior blackbelt position which is still prestigous but this junior black belt position allow the student to be in an "internship" if you will. I think this is the best way to mold the future instructor. Poromotion too early takes away the humbleness needed to mold the student. And humbleness is one of the leading precepts in any martial arts. Well atleast this is just my opinion.
Now with that being said as a child you may show qualities of a black belt but there is no way that anyone under the age of 16 is going to show the adult forward thinking that a black belt should have. Does that mean that someone under the age of 16 cannot be a black belt? No that is not what I am saying. In my art we promote students who are underage to a junior blackbelt position which is still prestigous but this junior black belt position allow the student to be in an "internship" if you will. I think this is the best way to mold the future instructor. Poromotion too early takes away the humbleness needed to mold the student. And humbleness is one of the leading precepts in any martial arts. Well atleast this is just my opinion.
Last week while watching ATC's Kids and mine train together at the Dojang and then later compete at the US Open. I was reminded of this thread. Our children range in age from 11 to 15 they are all Blackbelts. Some have suggested that they can't possibly have the demeanor of a Black Belt. Not only do they have the demeanor of a Black Belt. They have the work ethic and the dedication of any Blackbelt. It was suggested by some on this board that our Master should be slapped for allowing such young Black Belts. ATC now that you have met Master Blackburn is that not misguided and silly statement.
ATC
Senior Master
Ha ha ha....I am just cracking up at the thought of that. Although I don't think it would be a laughing matter if attempted.
On a side note, we just returned from Sacramento. We attended a tournament that Master Robinson puts on every year. My kids did not compete as we only took our color belts. Was nice to not have to rush around and enjoy the tournament. We let our assistant coaches get some experience.
Will see you guys in FL come this summer. Keep the pot stirred.
Yes in two cities in three days should be fun...
Pot stirred!!! How are you doing Twin Fist had not heard from you in a while?
Hope all is well!
We all know what you think! Hopefully your mind will open someday! Until then I enjoy your posts. They are one of the things that keep me coming back to this board.
I stand by my conviction that if a rank is to mean something, it must hold some weight. I'm not sure how I'd feel if I were 35 getting my first black belt with some 7 year olds who can do the same thing I can.
I won't put a 7-year-old behind the wheel of a car, I won't put a live blade in the hands of a 7-year-old, hell I wouldn't teach a 7-year-old how to start a fire unless absolutely necessary.
Curriculums need to be stringent ... but there are some things a child shouldn't learn. Poom ranks 15 and up with rare exception, full knowledge and ranking 18 and up and it still depends on the individual.
JMHO.
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I won't put a 7-year-old behind the wheel of a car, I won't put a live blade in the hands of a 7-year-old, hell I wouldn't teach a 7-year-old how to start a fire unless absolutely necessary.
Curriculums need to be stringent ... but there are some things a child shouldn't learn. Poom ranks 15 and up with rare exception, full knowledge and ranking 18 and up and it still depends on the individual.
JMHO.
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dancingalone
Grandmaster
Gorilla, you still do not train, correct? Do you think you would feel differently if you were a martial artist yourself instead of only being a parent? Food for thought.
I have never trained in TKD or any Asian martial Art...I have extensive training in Military Arts and Self defense...My thoughts on youth poom belts have evolved over the last year
I find your comment referring to me as only a parent quite interesting....I find my job as a parent is the most important one that I have...I am sure/hope that you feel that the role of a parent is an important one....
My daughter is a 16 year old First Dan and MY Son is a 13 year old 2nd Poom and they are a Credit to Martial Arts as those on this board who know them would attest.
