Young atheist needs support

[Bill Mattocks]

This seems to also be most peoples' attitude toward stuff like the 'under god' issue and the issue of the original post. Tough chit. This is also the attitude of most non-believers as well. They are usually the first to come to the defense of religious belief getting 'picked on'.

To you specifically Bill. I gather you don't 'support' the 'under god' clause, but is it just that you 'don't care' either way, because it doesn't effect you?

Also, I am in full support of freedom of expression. Even for douche bags like Fred Phelps. But I'm surprised that isn't enough. It has to be on state properties too.

You are correct - I don't care for the "Under God" clause, and I'd also be happy to see "In God We Trust" removed from our money, but I sincerely doubt it's going to happen, and you are also correct that it doesn't keep me up nights. I've got too much else to worry about.

I would assume 'the hard way' means some type of assault. Strange.

I'm pretty sure you're aware of it, but just to double check - I didn't make the statement you replied to here.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I'll probably get a "jane you ignorant slut" for this, but I understand where the kid is coming from. I was a non-christian in the Bible Belt for twelve years. The atmosphere is completely saturated with Christianity to the point that it feels like harassment after a while. I'm not talking about the white noise of walking past six churches on the same block, but the overtly aggressive prosetelysing. It's relentless. It never goes away. All he did was call attention to the law of the land, and he's right to do so. It reflects well on the school that they turned out someone both with discernment, and the courage to hold to his principles.

In politics the time is always right to pander to the Scripture-thumpers, so of course he's being demonized. I think this says a lot about the people harassing this kid. What does it say about the strength of their faith if they're threatened by missing out on one single prayer? Is their relationship with the Savior really that fragile? Personally I think they're just having a big collective tantrum for not getting their way .000000000001% of the time. Give it a rest. God can handle it, so should they. If God can't handle it, He's not worth worshipping in the first place.

The Flea has spoken.

I don't disagree with you with regard to your experiences. I lived in the South, I am Catholic, not Baptist. I might as well have worn horns and carried a pitchfork. Yes, the proselytizing is part of the background noise. They don't think they're doing it. I get that. Heck, I had to attend a mandatory 'company prayer breakfast' that had a preacher saying that he prayed for the Jews and Catholics, that we'd come to know God. I didn't much care for that.

But this is not about that. It's not about how others make you feel, it's about the law. Can they give a religious benediction at a school function like graduation? I think in most jurisdictions, the answer is 'yes'. However, he challenged them and the school backed down. Good for him. But now he's upset because everyone hates him? I'm sorry, there is no law that says people have to like it when you 'correct' them. They're going to hate him. Right or wrong, he brought that on himself. I don't know how you make people not hate him; there's no law for that.

 

[elder999]

It's not about what 'someone doesn't like'. It's about what is best for society. It's about law. etc

Who's to say "what's best for society?"

Which society?

Apparently, what's best for the society this kid finds himself in-that small community where he attended school-is to have a benediction at graduation.

"law, etc.," as I said, is somewhat murky in this instance, but, in spite of understandable perceptions to the contrary, such demonstrations of faith in the public square have been upheld as legal.

 

[Twin Fist]

IF he gets assaulted, it would be a crime and should be investigated as such

it would also be his own damn fault for pissing off the entire TOWN.

but still a crime

 

[Empty Hands]

As to the betrayal of the tenets of the religion held dear, minus the snarky-ness...

Sorry, I wasn't trying to be snarky. I mean it quite literally. There is something wrong with your (not you personally) thinking if you think the appropriate response with someone interfering in the religion based partially on "turn the other cheek" and similar is to hand out a beating. He didn't even insult or blaspheme.

 

[clfsean]

Sorry, I wasn't trying to be snarky. I mean it quite literally. There is something wrong with your (not you personally) thinking if you think the appropriate response with someone interfering in the religion based partially on "turn the other cheek" and similar is to hand out a beating. He didn't even insult or blaspheme.

Understood. :bangahead:

True he didn't insult or blaspheme, but he removed the option for a prayer from the remainder of the audience & students. That in itself could be viewed by some or the majority of the community, as the very same.

It was presented earlier, graduation ceremonies are optional, not required. I know when I graduated from college, I was 1800 miles from the ceremony & received the paper in the mail. My younger brother almost opted out of his graduation from high school due to his band's travel schedule (he was a professional musician) but was able to make it. This kid should've opted out rather than imposing his view on the masses or kept quiet.

 

[Darksoul]

-This may be a moot point but did the kid really have the option to not attend the ceremony? I had to attend my high school's graduation ceremony. Did he know before hand what would happen during the ceremony? If he did, I would think he could have justified his absence from it and not caused such a ruckus.

But again, did he have a choice? I personally have found silence to be the better choice, sometimes. Either way, it will be a good learning experience for him.

Andrew

 

[Big Don]

It's both.

Not according to the letter of the US Constitution

 

[fangjian]

Who's to say "what's best for society?"

Which society?

A secular society like ours.

DarkSoul
-This may be a moot point but did the kid really have the option to not attend the ceremony?

It probably would have been fine. However I do think that he was likely someone who has been dealing with something for a while, and saw this as an opportunity to do something about it. Some have said 'attention whoring'. I don't entirely disagree, as I'm sure attention was obviously wanted. But many here think it was just some 'teenage angst' or something. Nah

Bill Mattocks
I'm pretty sure you're aware of it, but just to double check - I didn't make the statement you replied to here.

Sorry. No. It was for TF. I haven't figured out how to 'multi quote' yet. For this one post, I copy and paste each thing then write your names up top and put in bold. Very tedious.

clfseanTrue he didn't insult or blasphem

What's wrong with 'blaspheme'?
I didn't wanna repeat 'bullocks' before, and just put 'BS', since they mean the same thing. Or did you really mean 'testicles'?

 

[ganglian]

**** him

i got no sympathy for little mr "i dont believe"

He can sit there and contemplate his navel for all I care.

You cry stalker when someone questions your opinion, laughable though it is, and yet here you are just the epitome of diplomacy....

I even disagree with him to, but that just didnt to be, loser

 

[elder999]

A secular society like ours.

Really? "Like ours?" Based upon which demographic would that be, exactly? I mean, you can say we have a secular government, and I wouldn't argue the point, though some might, but a "secular society?"


I don't know which of our United States you live in, but based on this, I think it's the one in your imagination.

 

[Twin Fist]

I even disagree with him to, but that just didnt to be, loser

translation please?

 

[clfsean]

What's wrong with 'blaspheme'?
I didn't wanna repeat 'bullocks' before, and just put 'BS', since they mean the same thing. Or did you really mean 'testicles'?

Blasphem... much like "to bleve" as stated by Miracle Max.

Nah... Bollocks is Bollcks.

 

[Twin Fist]

Really? "Like ours?" Based upon which demographic would that be, exactly? I mean, you can say we have a secular government, and I wouldn't argue the point, though some might, but a "secular society?"


I don't know which of our United States you live in, but based on this, I think it's the one in your imagination.

QFT

we are in no way shape or form a secular society

 

[Flea]

He shouldn't have to skip it. It's his ceremony, at his school amongst his peers, celebrating a major milestone of his life. He earned it through hard work, just like (one hopes) everyone else there. And even if his attendance wasn't required by the district, one mustn't underestimate the power of family pressure. If all the grandparents, cousins, aunts, uncles, godparents and family friends had already ponied up for gifts and plane tickets, he may have been better off facing the wrath of his neighbors.

 

[Sukerkin]

As an 'outsider' who also has something of an 'inside track' thanks to talking with you fellows, I have to say that America is a bit schitzo when it comes to this issue of whether you are a secular society or not.

In certain parts of the States, then no, those places are most assuredly not secular. In others, then yes, very much a secular, rationalist/humanist ethos.

Historically, a 'closed' social circle in a particular region will retain it's myth-culture longer than a more open and socially fluid area, particularly if there is a disparity in wealth. It's a positive feedback loop - if everyone believes in a creator-deity then everyone grows up to believe in a creator-deity. If most people feel that such religious/magical/shamaic traditions belong with our more primitive ancestors, then people are more likely to grow up not accepting that a creator-deity is a suitable explanation for why the universe is the way it is.

I don't know enough detail of American demographics tho' to say if it is a clear North/South divide on this? Can you chaps elaborate?

 

[ganglian]

translation please?

you're a second rate abusive troll who doesn't like being called on it. clear enough?

 

[Flea]

Now, there's no reason to get personal here. Not when we can let the Rapture sort us all out tomorrow.

:boing2:

 

[Carol]

If such a place is so horrible, then why hasn't he taken responsibility upon himself to leave?

He wouldn't give a a rat's backside what the town thinks if he was getting ready to move out of the Bible Belt for college in an area that he believes is more hospitable to his worldview. We'd love to have his tuition dolla.....errrr....I mean, we'd love to have a bright, thinking person gracing the colleges in New Hampshire.

A survey suggests that people in New Hampshire and Vermont are less likely than other Americans to attend weekly services and only 54% say that they are "absolutely certain there is a God" compared to 71% in the rest of the nation.New Hampshire and Vermont are also at the lowest levels among states in religious commitment. About 23% percent of the respondents attend religious service at least once a week (39% nationally). Thirty-six percent said religion is very important to them (56% nationally).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_hampshire

 

[fangjian]

Really? "Like ours?" Based upon which demographic would that be, exactly? I mean, you can say we have a secular government, and I wouldn't argue the point, though some might, but a "secular society?"


I don't know which of our United States you live in, but based on this, I think it's the one in your imagination.

Hehehe. You are probably right, my friend. Likely, my imagination. Also, I am likely using the word 'society' in a way that you are not. Or I am ignorant to how most use it etc.

Carol
If such a place is so horrible, then why hasn't he taken responsibility upon himself to leave?

You can't say anything without something throwing this argument out there.
Person A: " I disagree with the way our healthcare system is here in the USA. "
Person B: " Oh yeah? Well, maybe you should just move!"

just move?

Not so easy for some people.