Ill. Moment-Of-Silence Law Ruled Unconstitutional

[punisher73]

It's questionable how much "religion" is on federal buildings and monuments in DC, upon closer examination. And, in fact, there are no Bible verses on the Washington Monument. There are inscriptions on the monument related to its construction and history-mechanics, architects, dedication dates, etc. on each side. There is a weird Welsh inscription on the thing that has no religious meaning whatsoever, and it's something of a mystery as to why it's there and where it came from, and the capstone bears the inscription Laus Deo, or "praise God."

Of course, it's 550 ft. up in the air, where, presumably, no one but God could see it when it was constructed. :lfao:

On the stairs of the monument there are 190 plaques some of them include. "Holiness to the Lord" (Exodus 28), "Search the Scriptures" (John 5:39), "The memory of the just is blessed" (Proverbs 10:7) -- and such invocations as, "May Heaven to this Union continue its Benefice." Laus Deo at the cap is "Praise be to God".

Other religious items in DC

As you walk up the steps to the Capitol which houses the Supreme Court you can see near the top of the building a row of the world's law givers and each one is facing the middle who is facing forward with a full frontal view - it is Moses and the Ten Commandments! As you enter the Supreme Court courtroom, the two huge oak doors have the Ten Commandments engraved on each lower portion of each door. As you sit inside the courtroom, you can see the wall right above where the Supreme Court judges sit is a display of the Ten Commandments
Here is a link that highlights some others
http://www.godinthetemplesofgovernment.com/

I just think that it is amazing to keep claiming "seperation of church and state" when that has never been the case in the founding of this country. It was based on Judeo/Christian principles, period.

 

[Cryozombie]

Zing!

I don't think Christians need special accommodation because they don't do anything that actually needs special accommodation.

And I never argued that they did. In fact, I said it should be kept out of schools, with the exception of the belief that if you are going to suspend Church and State for any one group, you better do it for all of them.

Especially when said religion's mainly interested in indoctrinating every single child regardless of the parent's or children's beliefs.

This is an agenda to force feed Christianity to as many people as possible though the auspices of the state. Nothing more, nothing less.

That's as rational educated an opinion as "Every Mulsim wants to chop off my head for being an infidel"

 

[elder999]

On the stairs of the monument there are 190 plaques some of them include. "Holiness to the Lord" (Exodus 28), "Search the Scriptures" (John 5:39), "The memory of the just is blessed" (Proverbs 10:7) -- and such invocations as, "May Heaven to this Union continue its Benefice." Laus Deo at the cap is "Praise be to God".

No.

Those plaques in the monument were dedicated by various organizations and individuals-until the practice was stopped for individuals. They are, in fact, memorial stones-for Native American tribes, military units, fraternal orders,other countries, and churches-as well as a few individuals. They are neither truly part of the original monument, nor are they at all evidence of "God in government." Because of delays in construction coinciding with the buildup to the Civil War, and the Civil War itself, there are numerous entreatments to heaven to preserve the Union.While they do reflect public thought at the time, they are in no way meant to reflect anything in regards to the U.S. government, or, for that matter, George Washington.

There are four inscriptions on the monument itself commemorating its building, as well as the inscripton on the capstone praising God.

The stairs up the monument have been closed since the 70's.

See here

And here

Other religious items in DC

As you walk up the steps to the Capitol which houses the Supreme Court you can see near the top of the building a row of the world's law givers and each one is facing the middle who is facing forward with a full frontal view - it is Moses and the Ten Commandments! As you enter the Supreme Court courtroom, the two huge oak doors have the Ten Commandments engraved on each lower portion of each door. As you sit inside the courtroom, you can see the wall right above where the Supreme Court judges sit is a display of the Ten Commandments
Here is a link that highlights some others
http://www.godinthetemplesofgovernment.com/

And, no.

FIrst off, the Supreme Court has its own building, and hasn't been housed at the Capitol since 1935.

The sculpture referred to is on the back of the Supreme Court building, not over its entrance, and all of the "lawgiver" figures are facing forward, the same as Moses.

The doors and the frieze have the Roman numerals I-X representing, according to Adolph Weinman, the designer, the first ten Amendments to the Constitution-the Bill of RIghts.

Seen here

I just think that it is amazing to keep claiming "seperation of church and state" when that has never been the case in the founding of this country. It was based on Judeo/Christian principles, period.

I think it's amazing that it's never been the case that the country was based on "Judeo/Christian" principles, and people keep insisting that it was.Of course, that's an altogether different matter, that was discussed at some length here

 

[Archangel M]

John Adams:
“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”

Patrick Henry:
"Orator of the Revolution."
• This is all the inheritance I can give my dear family. The religion of Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed.”
—The Last Will and Testament of Patrick Henry
“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.” [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]

 

[Marginal]

That's as rational educated an opinion as "Every Mulsim wants to chop off my head for being an infidel"

That's just what pat Robertson preaches day in and day out. Hardly baseless.

What next? Cherry pick quotes from the FF? Oh, good. We've already got that going too. Rah.

 

[tellner]

Point of order here....

There is no such thing as "Judeo-Christian". The Jews have their religion. To the Jewish way of thinking Christianity is the outgrowth of a minor heresy a couple thousand years ago. Jewish theology and Jewish worldview are radically different from the self-congratulatory cartoon which Christians draw in their heads.

The term "Judeo-Christian" is simply another attempt by Christianity to co-opt Judaism for its own legitimization. Jews want nothing to do with the term. The more traditional the Jew, the less he or she likes it.

 

[Cryozombie]

That's just what pat Robertson preaches day in and day out. Hardly baseless.

Oh noes, Pat Robertson is Every Christian. Get real. But that does illustrate my point well. You can be ignorant and assume that Cuz one person, or a Group or a sect says/thinks somthing that represents em all.

Whats Next Marginal, "That Jewish man loaned me money! All Jews Must be Shylocks!"?

 

[elder999]

John Adams:
“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”

Interestingly, he also said this:

The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole cartloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity

"Have you considered that system of holy lies and pious frauds that has raged and triumphed for 1,500 years?"

"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it."

Patrick Henry:
"Orator of the Revolution."
• This is all the inheritance I can give my dear family. The religion of Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed.”
—The Last Will and Testament of Patrick Henry
“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.” [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]

The source for the second quote is false. Indeed, there is no source for the second quote, and its veracity is in doubt. I'm not sure of his last will and testament, but that's not a government document anyway...

Point of order here....

There is no such thing as "Judeo-Christian". The Jews have their religion. To the Jewish way of thinking Christianity is the outgrowth of a minor heresy a couple thousand years ago. Jewish theology and Jewish worldview are radically different from the self-congratulatory cartoon which Christians draw in their heads.

The term "Judeo-Christian" is simply another attempt by Christianity to co-opt Judaism for its own legitimization. Jews want nothing to do with the term. The more traditional the Jew, the less he or she likes it.

Actually, while the term first cropped up in the late 19th century to describe shared values, it achieved prominence in American usage as a joint attempt between Christians and Jews to lessen anti-semitism in the U.S. during the 20's and 30's. It was used to promote the idea of shared values by the National Conference of Christians and Jews.

 

[Marginal]

Oh noes, Pat Robertson is Every Christian. Get real. But that does illustrate my point well. You can be ignorant and assume that Cuz one person, or a Group or a sect says/thinks somthing that represents em all.

I assume he represents a lot of the groups that are desperate to cram Christian prayer services into schools, yes.

 

[Cryozombie]

I assume he represents a lot of the groups that are desperate to cram Christian prayer services into schools, yes.

Ok man. Whatever. You are the kind of guy, I could say "wow the sky is blue" and you'd go off on how its "Azure" wouldn't you?

 

[tellner]

Partly, Elder. But while Christians adopted the phrase wholesale as a form of co-option Jews tended to think of it as a politeness that helped them get by in an environment that could turn hostile at any moment. It did not encourage Jews to make their religion more like normative Christianity. Well, except among the Lubavitchers. But that's a whole different discussion

 

[Marginal]

Ok man. Whatever. You are the kind of guy, I could say "wow the sky is blue" and you'd go off on how its "Azure" wouldn't you?

Right now, it's pretty dark out, so I'll have to go with midnight blue. Periwinkle during the day. :jediduel:

 

[elder999]

Well, except among the Lubavitchers. But that's a whole different discussion

oy vey! :lol:

The only acknowledgment of God in the original Constitution is a utilitarian one: the document is dated "in the year of our Lord 1787." Even the religion clause of the First Amendment is framed dryly and without reference to any particular faith. The Connecticut ratifying convention debated rewriting the preamble to take note of God’s authority, but the effort failed. A pseudonymous opponent of the Connecticut proposal had some fun with the notion of a deity who would, in a sense, be checking the index for his name: "A low mind may imagine that God, like a foolish old man, will think himself slighted and dishonored if he is not complimented with a seat or a prologue of recognition in the Constitution." Instead, the framers, the opponent wrote in The American Mercury "come to us in the plain language of common sense and propose to our understanding a system of government as the invention of mere human wisdom; no deity comes down to dictate it, not a God appears in a dream to propose any part of it."

While many states maintained established churches and religious tests for office — Massachusetts was the last to disestablish, in 1833 — the federal framers, in their refusal to link civil rights to religious observance or adherence, helped create a culture of religious liberty that ultimately carried the day.

Thomas Jefferson said that his bill for religious liberty in Virginia was "meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Mahometan, the Hindu, and infidel of every denomination."

When George Washington was inaugurated in New York in April 1789, Gershom Seixas, the hazan of Shearith Israel, was listed among the city’s clergymen (there were 14 in New York at the time) — a sign of acceptance and respect. The next year, Washington wrote the Hebrew Congregation of Newport, R.I., saying, "happily the government of the United States ... gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance. ... Everyone shall sit in safety under his own vine and fig tree, and there shall be none to make him afraid."

Andrew Jackson resisted bids in the 1820s to form a "Christian party in politics." And, as I posted elsewhere, Abraham Lincoln buried a proposed "Christian amendment" to the Constitution to declare the nation’s fealty to Jesus. Theodore Roosevelt defended William Howard Taft, a Unitarian, from religious attacks by supporters of William Jennings Bryan.

The founders were not anti-religion. Many of them were faithful in their personal lives, and in their public language they evoked God. They grounded the founding principle of the nation — that all men are created equal — in the divine. But they wanted faith to be one thread in the country’s tapestry, not the whole tapestry.

In the 1790s, in the waters off Tripoli, pirates were making sport of American shipping near the Barbary Coast. Toward the end of his second term, Washington sent Joel Barlow, the diplomat-poet, to Tripoli to settle matters, and the resulting treaty, finished after Washington left office, bought a few years of peace. Article 11 of this long-ago document says that "as the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion," there should be no cause for conflict over differences of "religious opinion" between countries.
The treaty passed the Senate unanimously-and was signed by our second President, John Adams.

Abraham Lincoln -
The Bible is not my book, and Christianity is not my religion. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma.