Ill. Moment-Of-Silence Law Ruled Unconstitutional

[Cryozombie]

If it's not religious, why are only Christians clamoring for laws like this? Why is getting "secular" prayer periods into school so incredibly important?

Last Time I checked, Muslims weren't Christian. My question is WHY is it being shut down for Christians but enforced as a right for Muslims?

Oh yes, because sticking up for those poor oppressed Muslims is the flavor of the day along with Christian bashing from people with marginal intelligence at best who wouldn't understand hypocrisy if it hit them over the head with a Koran.

 

[Hollywood1340]

Last Time I checked, Muslims weren't Christian. My question is WHY is it being shut down for Christians but enforced as a right for Muslims?

Oh yes, because sticking up for those poor oppressed Muslims is the flavor of the day along with Christian bashing from people with marginal intelligence at best who wouldn't understand hypocrisy if it hit them over the head with a Koran.

Hi, I'm new in this thread. I think you missed the point here. No one says that everyone has to pray to mecca, but those who's faith dictates it, can. No one is saying Christians can't pray, but those that need to, can. However what they are saying it's unlawful to "force" everyone to.

 

[Tez3]

I think one reason that Muslims want rights to say their prayers is that their religion differs from Christianity in that they are obliged to pray at specific times of the day whereas Christians don't. I imagine they want to be able to stop work/school/college whatever at these times without being penalised. In British workplaces and schools they just go off for the short time it takes to a separate room say their prayers and then resume work. It doesn't inconvenience anyone. No Muslims here have demanded everyone has to do it. I'm sure any other religion that has obligations to do things at certain times have equal rights, I just don't know of any Christian rites or prayers that are said to a timetable, if they were I'm sure they'd have equal rights to excuse themselves.
Smokers here have the same right, to go off and have a puff of the old cancer sticks.

 

[elder999]

Last Time I checked, Muslims weren't Christian. My question is WHY is it being shut down for Christians but enforced as a right for Muslims?

But it's not that way at all.

What's being shut down is an enforced moment of required participation. Of course, those who don't pray at all are obligated to just stand there. I say "stand" since it usually occurred after that other obligatory moment of prayer, the recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance, when I was in school.

No one is saying that kids who want to pray can't-they're just saying that you can't make 'em. What's enforced for Muslims is the observation of their Constitutional religious rights-and religious obligations: they have to pray in the direction of Mecca 5 times a day-while this could be disruptive in a public school environment, it's also something that must, by law, be accomodated-that doesn't mean that the other students have to participate in it as well, unlike the enforced moment of silence.

Like I said, I prayed all the time in school -though I never did ask for God's help on an exam-that's what God made work for :lol: .

One has to wonder, though, about some of the odder places of conflict with school requirements and religious requirements....think I'll take a look-the Sikh kirpan issue comes to mind-I think that particular obligation would be in direct conflict with a lot of school's "zero tolerance" for weapons, what with kids being suspended for bringing in plastic knives for their lunch and all....:lfao:

Is it just me, or is the country becoming an open air insane asylum???!!:lfao: (do we have a straight-jacketed smiley?)

 

[CanuckMA]

During the winter, I take a break during the late afternoon for afternoon prayer. I also leave early on Fridays to make it home before sundown. I won't work on Saturdays. These times are mandated. Same thing for Muslim prayers.

AAMOF, i used to work with a devout Muslim, and we would take off together in the afternoon to pray. It was an interesting sight...

 

[Archangel M]

If we are going to separate "Church and State" entirely...it should be across the board. No exceptions.

 

[CanuckMA]

think I'll take a look-the Sikh kirpan issue comes to mind-I think that particular obligation would be in direct conflict with a lot of school's "zero tolerance" for weapons, what with kids being suspended for bringing in plastic knives for their lunch and all....:lfao:

We had that case in BC some years ago. It was settled by allowing the student to wear a short, rounded dull blade , wrapped in a cloth, worn under his clothing. Essentially, a useless weapon that is if not impossible, at least impractical to get to. It's a reasonable accomodation. And let's ace it, the requirement for Sikhs is a full sword, anything after that is compromise.

 

[elder999]

If we are going to separate "Church and State" entirely...it should be across the board. No exceptions.

What does that mean, exactly though?

It means freedom of religion and freedom from religion.

It means you can't be forced to participate in anything, but that people are free to participate as they wish and need to, when they wish and need to, and pretty much where they wish and need to.

It also means that such participation shouldn't be disruptive-in the case of the Muslim obligation to pray, they should be permitted to excuse themselves from class and go someplace quiet to make their obligation-the library, perhaps, or outside when the weather permits.

I don't see any conflict at all between permitting a person to practice their religious obligations, and not mandating a specific religious requirement, which is what the "moment of silence" was. There was a time when many U.S. public schools began the day with a prayer or Bible reading, and it wasn't clearly decided until the early sixties that school-sponsored prayer was state sponsored prayer, and therefore, unconstitutional. This was the advent of the "moment of silence," and it was and is an attempt to begin the day with prayer, or at least a state-sponsored moment of acknowledgement. Again, not neccessary-while I did pray during the moment of silence, I also prayed at lunch, and a few other times-no one knew, and I certainly didn't need to be provided a special time to share with everyone else......

 

[Marginal]

Last Time I checked, Muslims weren't Christian. My question is WHY is it being shut down for Christians but enforced as a right for Muslims?

Christians, the brutally oppressed majority.

Oh yes, because sticking up for those poor oppressed Muslims is the flavor of the day along with Christian bashing from people with marginal intelligence at best who wouldn't understand hypocrisy if it hit them over the head with a Koran.

Zing!

 

[punisher73]

Most people are projecting what THEY believe a "moment of silence" to be. Read the law as it was written....period. The law was unconstitutional because it claimed the teachers were required to teach prayer. This is false. The law stated that there was a moment of silence for kids to contemplate their day or pray or whatever they wanted to do. It did not say you had to do this with eyes closed or couldn't look at your day planner or syllabus and look at what you had to do.

My statement about "atheism" being enforced is because almost every case I can think of when it comes to religion vs. gov't and school is started by an atheist. The courts have "ruled" that atheism is a religion already.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=45874

I understand the "anti-religion" stance that many atheists will state. Such things as saying if "atheism is a religion, then bald is a hair color". I am only calling it that as it pertains to the topic that courts have ruled that as a "religion" atheism needs to be protected.

The constitution never said that church and state must be seperate. In the first amendmant it states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...". This again only prohibits a "state run church" like England had. I'm surprised that people tend to ignore how much "religion" is on the federal buildings and monuments in DC (Look into the Washington Monument and the many Bible verses engraved).

 

[elder999]

I'm surprised that people tend to ignore how much "religion" is on the federal buildings and monuments in DC (Look into the Washington Monument and the many Bible verses engraved).

It's questionable how much "religion" is on federal buildings and monuments in DC, upon closer examination. And, in fact, there are no Bible verses on the Washington Monument. There are inscriptions on the monument related to its construction and history-mechanics, architects, dedication dates, etc. on each side. There is a weird Welsh inscription on the thing that has no religious meaning whatsoever, and it's something of a mystery as to why it's there and where it came from, and the capstone bears the inscription Laus Deo, or "praise God."

Of course, it's 550 ft. up in the air, where, presumably, no one but God could see it when it was constructed. :lfao:

 

[CanuckMA]

Most people are projecting what THEY believe a "moment of silence" to be. Read the law as it was written....period. The law was unconstitutional because it claimed the teachers were required to teach prayer. This is false. The law stated that there was a moment of silence for kids to contemplate their day or pray or whatever they wanted to do. It did not say you had to do this with eyes closed or couldn't look at your day planner or syllabus and look at what you had to do.

People believe that because those laws are always pushed by Xtians. If atheists started to demand moments of silence to 'contemplate the day', then the populace would be more inclined to take that at face value.

 

[Marginal]

The constitution never said that church and state must be seperate. In the first amendmant it states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...". This again only prohibits a "state run church" like England had. I'm surprised that people tend to ignore how much "religion" is on the federal buildings and monuments in DC (Look into the Washington Monument and the many Bible verses engraved).

That's handy, but it overlooks a lot. For example, if a school happens to be broadcasting Christian prayers over the PA that's basically the government state and federal endorsing a religion.

That's what all these prayer in school initiatives are really trying to reinstate. Which is why the wall needs to remain up forever.

 

[jarrod]

is no one else concerned with the fact that it's simply not the school's job to provide moments of silence? not that big a deal to anyone else?

maybe we should give kids a few minutes to brush their teeth every morning at school. tooth brushing in public isn't unconstitutional either.

jf

 

[Cryozombie]

But it's not that way at all.

What's being shut down is an enforced moment of required participation. Of course, those who don't pray at all are obligated to just stand there. I say "stand" since it usually occurred after that other obligatory moment of prayer, the recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance, when I was in school.

Well, I see it as Separation of Church and State for Christians, and Accommodation of Church and state for Muslims. I seem to recall Mormons having to give up some of their Religious rights to US law, as well as certain Satanist groups, etc. But heaven forbid I complain about the teachers stopping class for 15 minutes so Muslims can pray.

It's been said before: It should be all or nothing. Every group with the same treatment either allowing it or Disallowing it. Period.

I don't think we need Prayer in school. I don't think Christians Need to Pray in School. I don't think Muslims need to pray in school. I dont think Wiccans need to Pray in school.

Bottom line: you want your kids to pray in school, send them to a religious school. But for ****'s sake, don't tell me my Christian Kids cant have their "Moment of Silence" where they can pray but kids who don't want to can sit quietly, cuz thats wrong and forcing religion on kids, but then argue some Muslim kid gets to pray, but if you don't want to you can sit quietly and read.

I call ******** on that.

 

[Cryozombie]

is no one else concerned with the fact that it's simply not the school's job to provide moments of silence? not that big a deal to anyone else?

Yes. It's not. It's not their job to provide it for Christains. Its not their job to provide it for Jews. Its not their Job to provide it for Muslims either, but the Muslims GET it and everyone seems ok with that.

 

[Marginal]

Yes. It's not. It's not their job to provide it for Christains. Its not their job to provide it for Jews. Its not their Job to provide it for Muslims either, but the Muslims GET it and everyone seems ok with that.

Neither really has a prayer ritual associated with it either. It's not like they need to face a certain direction etc.

They can pray any time, and as long as they don't insist of praying aloud or striking a pose, who could possibly tell that they were praying, and even if they did, how likely is it that they would be stopped from doing so?

It's a protection that isn't necessary. (This makes it really hard to care about the "horrible" disparity here.)

 

[Cryozombie]

Christians, the brutally oppressed majority.

This makes it really hard to care about the "horrible" disparity here.

Well, ya know, A bigot is a bigot regardless. Doesnt matter if you hate the blacks, the whites, the chinese, the Christians or the Jews...

 

[Marginal]

Well, ya know, A bigot is a bigot regardless. Doesnt matter if you hate the blacks, the whites, the chinese, the Christians or the Jews...

Zing!

I don't think Christians need special accommodation because they don't do anything that actually needs special accommodation. I also don't think a majority religion has any business perpetually framing itself as the victim of horrible, horrible attacks by evil secularists. Especially when said religion's mainly interested in indoctrinating every single child regardless of the parent's or children's beliefs.

This is an agenda to force feed Christianity to as many people as possible though the auspices of the state. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Empty Hands]

Well, I see it as Separation of Church and State for Christians, and Accommodation of Church and state for Muslims.

There's plenty of Christian accommodation, actually. JW's don't have to give an oath in court, in fact they were the ones to fight for that. They don't have to give the Pledge in school either. Mormon kids are allowed to go off campus during the school day for religious instruction. Vegetarian options must be made available for 7th Day Adventists (among others). Religious allowances of all sort, including Christian, are made for drafted soldiers. There are others. They just don't gobble up the attention because they are expected, and the background accommodation that the majority takes for granted.