You need to ask "what if" like ras...or you suck

[Flying Crane]

I continued to teach majorly flawed techniques and methods for 9 years for a major organization until I branched out via the Internet and observed other arts and instructors.

I went solo in 2001 and enjoy broadening my abilities as an instructor and am particularly challenged by Ras and the Mad Hatter of Kenpo Clark Cole!

Chris

Did you continue to teach them while believing they were flawed? Did you believe they perhaps had potential that you simply had not yet grasped, and so still had faith in them? Did you recognize them as flawed after you began looking around, and was that realization what lead you to break away?

If you knew they were flawed and yet continued to teach them, what was your reasons for doing so?

 

[MJS]

http://martialtalkmagazine.com/you-need-to-ask-what-if-like-ras-or-you-suck-preface-part-a/



What…did you think I’d let guys like Doc–however much I may respect them as martial artists and their accomplishments–call me out and NOT respond? Please. This is THE ATACX GYM here. Don’t make me go A MAN CALLED HAWK on you and call you a damn fool.

This article is the preface to a somewhat scathing and brutal point by point direct rebuttal to some of the positions taken by some of our esteemed Kenpo Elders like Doc and whoever agrees with the specific positions that I’m rebutting…and in doing so I hope to make the position of my ATACX GYM clear. If you’re sensitive? You don’t want to read this article, because if you know me? You already know I’m bringing the flame with every piece I write and this piece is no exception to the rule. If you don’t know me? Read on, hopefully you’ll like what I have to say.
Lemme make this clear: the core and crux of THE ATACX GYM is Functional Versatility. To my knowledge, we are the only Kenpo Gym that developes our sequences with every consideration of h2h combat in mind from jumpstreet. We believe that the complete enchilada of self-defense…360 degrees of technique application from any stance or position, ranging from firearms to ground grappling to Evasion and Escape to Rescue to Multifights Armed or Unarmed to First Aid etc etc and any combination thereof…is what we’re supposed to learn. All of our techs and sequences…every single one…reflects this philosophy. We also have crafted a very unusual training paradigm reflective of our specific philosophy. We are extremely results oriented…so much so that we guarantee specific results every 8 hours of training time with us. I know of no other Gym that makes such specific guarantees.
Here are the top issues that I have with people who champion the sucktastic dysfunctional more popular “idea not Ideal” Phase techs:
1. They don’t train in a Functional/Alive fashion so 99% of the time their lack of Alive/Functional training virtually guarantees that they will fail to defend themselves when put to the test. How many students are paying for the priviledge of NOT being able to defend themselves?
This is ALIVE training defined by Matt Thornton. I like much of what he has to say, but he didn’t originate his position [ which he'd be the first to acknowledge ]


2. Many Kenpoists will denigrate sports oriented martial arts with claims that “we train for the street, not sport”. No, they don’t. If these so-called street oriented self-defense centered Kenpoists did as they claimed? They’d be working on far more things than their sports combat brethren and they’d loooong be converts of Functional/Alive Training. There would be zero argument about universal performance in the most common ranges of h2h SD befalling citizens, LEO and HRSP types [ which my research leads me to define as: Projectile Weapon Range, Non-projectile Weapon Range, Stand Up, Clinch, Seated, Kneeling [ either and both knees ] Ground, Prone, Escape, Evasion, Rescue, Rescue and Escape/Evade, Multifight Armed and Unarmed, Transitions to and thru all of the above, Breakfalls, Rolls, First Aid and CPR ] and the absolute mandate to have universally applicable and universally trained sequences comprised of universally applicable and universally trained techs.
3. Most Kenpoists have been hugely duped brainwashed and mindwiped. They seek to cleave to a dysfunctional model of their IP training and identify this craptastic expression as the standard to live up to. Even if Doc Chapel hadn’t completely nuked that crap by reciting the true history of the IP? Simply SPARRING and training functionally with [ whatever ] tech will ensure that it DOES NOT look like its dysfunctional predecessor…because it works.
4. Now. Like I frequently say and I’m repeating again: You don’t have to wholesale adopt my specific comprehensive expression of doing any technique, but WHATEVER technique or sequence you train? It needs to work in EVERY PRIMARY ARMED OR UNARMED, MULTIFIGHT, RESCUE, EVADE/ESCAPE etc etc scenario. If you do this? Then whatever expression you come up with will be universally functional. You will discover that it’s alot more fun, alot more work, alot more rewarding in every sense, and that there IS a single expression of say…GRASP OF DEATH…that allows you to deal with each and every one of the primary self-defense considerations. This single expression should be your BASE technique; the technique that you personally practice and the one that you teach your students. Whatever refinements that you hit upon should start from your new, highly functional GRASP OF DEATH and NOT from the dysfunctional crap that passes as the Ideal Phase Grasp of Death.

You and I must train Functionally. If you don’t? You’re deceiving yourself, your students, the general public, and are likely contributing significantly to the likelihood of someone using your craptastic techs in a actual scrap ends up getting hurt. That’s on you but it reflects poorly on all of us who are responsible functional martial art instructors.
So….WHAT IF YOU KNOW ABOUT WEAPONS, GRAPPLERS, MULTIFIGHTS, LEG KICKS, ETC. BUT YOU CHOOSE NOT TO TRAIN YOUR STUDENTS FOR THESE AND OTHER BASIC REALITIES FROM DAY ONE?
ANSWER: YOU SUCK.
That’s why…YOU NEED TO ASK WHAT IF LIKE RAS...[ for the rest, click: http://martialtalkmagazine.com/you-need-to-ask-what-if-like-ras-or-you-suck-preface-part-a/ ]

To comment on the above:

1) I agree, that alot dont, but I don't think I'd go so far as to say everyone. But thats just me.

2) On the flip side, how many sport oriented guys do what you mention? I'd be willing to bet little to none.

3) I'd be willing to bet that there're alot of sport oriented folks that are duped too.

4) I do feel that if one is serious about training for the purpose of SD, then you should encompass all areas. I often wonder how many people, who're out there, teaching gun disarms, actually know something about a gun. The same with a knife. I mean, there're alot of different guns and knives out there. I think it'd be wise to know a little something and if you dont, either get yourself some knowledge or bring in someone who has that knowledge. The same with grappling. We have alot of takedown defenses in Kenpo, yet I wonder, how many of those same folks, actually have any grappling knowledge?

 

[MJS]

Actually--as Chris the non-Kenpo man's link to my SWORD AND HAMMER PT. 1 AND 2 thread will resoundingly prove--there is not a single atom of his statements which at any time bear even the slightest factual similarity to the real world. His opinion is essentially comprised of utter contrariness...for the sake of being contrary. There is no--and never has been nor will there ever be--even the most inifinitesimal facts to support his negative opinions about me.

I invite him and any and all critics to prove--PROVE--otherwise. Let us move beyond cogent posts to empirical data.

I have provided video evidence to buttress my position with real world data. I have provided historical evidence drawn from the pioneer of Kenpo himself to buttress my position. I disagree with several of our most decorated and respected Elders on various positions of import, but they all boil down to a simple, single concept:

Whatever technique that you learn? It must be universally functional. THE SAME TECHNIQUE OR SEQUENCE must operate equally well whether you're armed or not, in multifights or not, ground grappling or ground fighting or not, regardless of stance or position, in a 360 degree circle, whether you're escaping/evading or not, rescuing someone or not,address every concern in The Web of Knowledge, address transitioning to and through any or all of the above or not, and address any combination of any or all of the above. It's...the essence of common sense.

Not all or even most martial artists do so. Not all or even most martial artists are MANDATED to do so if they choose to do otherwise. But whatever concern they choose not to address and/or develope combat proficiency in? THAT'S THE CONCERN THAT THEY'RE VULNERABLE TO. You don't address and get proficient in offensive and defensive leg kicks/blocks? Well...guess who's getting kicked in the leg? You don't address ground submissions? Well...guess who's getting tapped snapped or napped? You don't address multifights? Well...guess who's gettin stomped in a multifight? Etc etc.

Btw Chris, I'm still waiting upon that video that you never produced to prove your point...which of course is never going to come because it's like all your other evidence: spurious and non-existent.

I know we've talked, but I'm still having a hard time wrapping my head around the all encompassing, multi purpose one size fits all technique. IMO, I think time would be better spent working on techs for each specific task, rather than taking a tech meant for a punch, and trying to make it work for a grab. but thats just me.

 

[MJS]

Hmm...I'm going to toss something else into the mix here. Since all we're doing is talking about Kenpo, I'm going to mention Kajukenbo. Now, IMO, there's an art that does alot. After watching the Fight Quest Kaju episode, it seems pretty apparent to me that they're pretty well rounded.

Does anyone else agree? Disagree? If so, I'm interested in hearing what you have to say.

 

[Flying Crane]

Whatever technique that you learn? It must be universally functional. THE SAME TECHNIQUE OR SEQUENCE must operate equally well whether you're armed or not, in multifights or not, ground grappling or ground fighting or not, regardless of stance or position, in a 360 degree circle, whether you're escaping/evading or not, rescuing someone or not,address every concern in The Web of Knowledge, address transitioning to and through any or all of the above or not, and address any combination of any or all of the above. It's...the essence of common sense.

I gotta ask: by "technique" are you referring to the scripted kenpo Self Defense type combination techniques that are specific to a certain attack, or are you referring to the more fundamental techniques like a simple punch, or a block, or a kick?

If you are referring to the former, then as devil's advocate I need to ask, what's the point in having a curriculum, IF you can truly take one SD tech and apply it under all circumstances? Why not have a couple of favorites, if you can use them always, and just throw the rest away? Why burden yourself with a large curriculum that you don't need?

If you are referring to the latter, then I agree, you need to understand how your fundamentals can be used under all circumstances. That is where the true secrets of the martial arts lie. It's all in the fundamentals and understanding how universal they are, no matter what is happening.

 

[ATACX GYM]

To comment on the above:

1) I agree, that alot dont, but I don't think I'd go so far as to say everyone. But thats just me.

2) On the flip side, how many sport oriented guys do what you mention? I'd be willing to bet little to none.

3) I'd be willing to bet that there're alot of sport oriented folks that are duped too.

4) I do feel that if one is serious about training for the purpose of SD, then you should encompass all areas. I often wonder how many people, who're out there, teaching gun disarms, actually know something about a gun. The same with a knife. I mean, there're alot of different guns and knives out there. I think it'd be wise to know a little something and if you dont, either get yourself some knowledge or bring in someone who has that knowledge. The same with grappling. We have alot of takedown defenses in Kenpo, yet I wonder, how many of those same folks, actually have any grappling knowledge?

My responses to your enumerated post...


1. I never said "everyone" about anything. We're still in lockstep.

2. Most sport oriented guys do alot of what I mention...depending upon what sport they pursue. However, I know none that do ALL of what I mention.

3. There are sport oriented guys who are duped...but not about the supremacy of performance. If you pitched a performance oriented argument to them? The chances are high that they'd find merit in it. Not a single sport guy--not ONE--that I have met and spoke to over the past decades has had the SLIGHTEST problem with what I offer and maaaaannny of them have come to train with me directly after I tell them what I do.

4. CO-SIGN!!!

 

[ATACX GYM]

I gotta ask: by "technique" are you referring to the scripted kenpo Self Defense type combination techniques that are specific to a certain attack, or are you referring to the more fundamental techniques like a simple punch, or a block, or a kick?

If you are referring to the former, then as devil's advocate I need to ask, what's the point in having a curriculum, IF you can truly take one SD tech and apply it under all circumstances? Why not have a couple of favorites, if you can use them always, and just throw the rest away? Why burden yourself with a large curriculum that you don't need?

If you are referring to the latter, then I agree, you need to understand how your fundamentals can be used under all circumstances. That is where the true secrets of the martial arts lie. It's all in the fundamentals and understanding how universal they are, no matter what is happening.

I get this question alot too...and have answered it alot. I bet a smart guy like you, Michael, could answer this question rather expeditiously if you reflected upon it for a few minutes.

When I say technique, I mean a specific technique. Like a front kick or inside block. When I refer to a named scripted offensive and/or defensive, I use the word SEQUENCE. Like ALTERNATING MACES is a SEQUENCE.

Here are 2 of the most gargantuan benefit to having multiple techniques and sequences all multifaceted and multifunctional:

1. Immediately, from the word go, you have techniques and sequences that function vs any attack at any time, instead of having to wait for another lesson or another belt rank to have a HOPE of addressing a particular attack...

2. The techniques and sequences have a comprehensively synergistic effect. You have a million ways to do one thing and a million ways to do a million things.

And for those of you who swear that what I'm saying isn't part and parcel of Kenpo legacy and wasn't used or championed by Mr. Parker himself? Well...wrong you are, my friends:

http://www.kenpokarate.com/

"

50 Ways to Sunday

​

The essentials of Kenpo training are in its techniques. Kenpo Karate, as with Kenpo Jujitsu, has over 700 distinct self-defense techniques, in addition to blocks (originally strikes) and 72 kicks. But it is not just the number of techniques, it's how they are taught that defines Kenpo.About two weeks after my brother Jim and I began training with Ed Parker, Ed started an afternoon class, with Jim and me as his only students. The class never had more than four students at any one time, so it was like having a semi-private lesson each day with Ed. This allowed us to move quickly in the evening class from beginning to intermediate and advanced class.One of the first things I learned was the "What if?" rule. It went like this: Ed would teach a technique and we would practice it. But the technique was always limited. "What if" the attacker grabbed you slightly differently? Or "What if" he grabbed with a different hand? Or what if, whatever. Ed would then show you a variation to the technique with lightening speed and a devastating power that sent you reeling and bruised for a week; and, if you were smart, you never asked "What if?" again. But, if you were really smart, you would get a new student to ask "What if?". You learned that for every technique there are numerous variations which would eventually be taught to cover each variations of the attack. Both Oshita and Chow emphasized that there were many ways and variations to the techniques used to defend against each attack.

At the time (1957-59) many of the Japanese Karate systems had a very limited number of moves, with a right punch being one move, a left punch being a second move, right and left punch being a third move, a block a fourth move, a block and punch a fifth move, a block and two punches a sixth move, and a block with a different hand another move, etc.; and, those styles required each move to be mastered before the next move was taught. Chow, Oshita and Parker all stressed the importance of learning many moves over mastering a single move. Ed Parker was 6' and 195#, Chow was 5'6" and 150# of solid muscle, Oshita was slightly over 5' and weighed about 100# (you never ask a woman Kenpo master her height or weight). What was best for one, was not best for the other, and all three emphasized, what was easy for one student might be difficult for another. One student might have fast hands, another fast feet, another student both and another student, neither; but each student would seek his level of ability.How Kenpo is taught was put best by Oshita who told me another style would make me master one move at a time, one move a week, and in ten years I would have mastered 500 moves. But she would teach me ten, twenty, thirty or more moves a day, and I would not be very good at most of these when a new move was taught, but in a year I would master 1,000 moves. What's more, the moves I would master would not be the same as another student who had been taught the same moves. Each student would master what his mind and body found easiest. It was for this reason that there was no brown belt test at that time. For brown belt you had to know all the moves, but only be a master of most. The instructor would know when a student had progressed from Kyu to Dan, and each student would be different. But more importantly, a move that was difficult, or even impossible for the student when it is first taught, would become easier as he developed his Kenpo skills. When a student had mastered all the techniques, he would then become an Instructor. (Chow had no instructor rank and never used instructor on any of his certificates.)I remember in April 1960, when I was an Ikkyu (1st degree brown belt) I flew to California where I showed Ed Parker what I had learned from both Chow and Oshita, and related some of the insight I had gained in how to practice the different techniques. Ed told me he had learned the same thing from Chow, and had not thought about it in years. He called the training method, "50 Ways to Sunday," meaning that a student would practice each techniques 50 Ways to Sunday - so many different ways that it would become natural.Kenpo teaches that no one defense will work all the time, but the variations are the defense. In addition, as Oshita told me, you can practice a technique a thousand time, and it will only work for one attack; it is better to practice ten variations 100 times, so the mind and body can repeat the same move many different ways. The Way of Kenpo is in training, and one must not deviate from that Way...

 

[Flying Crane]

I get this question alot too...and have answered it alot. I bet a smart guy like you, Michael, could answer this question rather expeditiously if you reflected upon it for a few minutes.

When I say technique, I mean a specific technique. Like a front kick or inside block. When I refer to a named scripted offensive and/or defensive, I use the word SEQUENCE. Like ALTERNATING MACES is a SEQUENCE.

Here are 2 of the most gargantuan benefit to having multiple techniques and sequences all multifaceted and multifunctional:

1. Immediately, from the word go, you have techniques and sequences that function vs any attack at any time, instead of having to wait for another lesson or another belt rank to have a HOPE of addressing a particular attack...

2. The techniques and sequences have a comprehensively synergistic effect. You have a million ways to do one thing and a million ways to do a million things.

And for those of you who swear that what I'm saying isn't part and parcel of Kenpo legacy and wasn't used or championed by Mr. Parker himself? Well...wrong you are, my friends:

what you don't answer tho is: what is the point of having a million ways, if one or two really is all you need? why burden yourself and your students?

 

[LawDog]

My brother in law drives a chevy 3/4 tom pickup and I drive a Jeep Sarah. Each vehicle has it's area of strenghts and weakness. Each vehicle has different options installed. They are of different size and shape. Both of these vehicles do have one thing in common, they both can bring you from point A to point B with little or no problem at all. Are the Martial Arts any different?
I am from the "old school" mindset of Keep It Simple Sir,(KISS). We believe only a few impacting techniques are needed to make knucle meet flesh, to make you opponts body fly threw the air and impact on the group and to hold / imobilize their bodys and mindsets against the floor.
Doc uses a different vehicle to get the same results. Even though we do not agree on alot of issues I do know that both he and I can get our vehicles from point A to point B. I do not have an issue to what his system does.
If they can get there so then what is the problem?
I am not taking sides but I am having a hard time following this thread.

 

[ATACX GYM]

what you don't answer tho is: what is the point of having a million ways, if one or two really is all you need? why burden yourself and your students?

Define "ways". One or two "ways"? Is this the grappling and striking way? The weapon and multifighting way? The Hung Gar way? The Wing Chun way? The Muay Thai way? There are as many ways as there are problems and preferences. We might have one or two ways when we only have one or two problems to solve and one or two preferences.

 

[ATACX GYM]

My brother in law drives a chevy 3/4 tom pickup and I drive a Jeep Sarah. Each vehicle has it's area of strenghts and weakness. Each vehicle has different options installed. They are of different size and shape. Both of these vehicles do have one thing in common, they both can bring you from point A to point B with little or no problem at all. Are the Martial Arts any different?
I am from the "old school" mindset of Keep It Simple Sir,(KISS). We believe only a few impacting techniques are needed to make knucle meet flesh, to make you opponts body fly threw the air and impact on the group and to hold / imobilize their bodys and mindsets against the floor.
Doc uses a different vehicle to get the same results. Even though we do not agree on alot of issues I do know that both he and I can get our vehicles from point A to point B. I do not have an issue to what his system does.
If they can get there so then what is the problem?
I am not taking sides but I am having a hard time following this thread.

I'm not disparaging Doc's and SL-4's methods either. I think they work. What I'm saying is focused purely upon TRAINING PARADIGMS and the mindset and knowledge base these training paradigms tend to create and cultivate.

There are two and only two broad categories of training: The functional and dysfunctional. Both of them operate in a continuum. There can be techniques and sequences that are functional but can become more or less so, and there are techniques and sequences that are DYSfunctional, and can become more or less so...depending upon the training paradigm.


I further opined:

1. The more functional techniques and sequences are able to resolve successfully more attacks than the less functional techniques and sequences. The epitome of multifunctional techniques and sequences are the techniques and sequences that are trained against and successfully resolve every single category range and kind of attack most common in LEO and civilian h2h combat encounters.

2. The training paradigm that gave rise to the most popular expression of what most people call THE IDEAL PHASE is dysfunctional and in serious need of functional upgrade

3. The resulting functional sequence [ whatever it is ] will not be the same expression that you see in the dysfunctional IDEAL PHASE...because it works

4. When you have to fight? You have to use the info and skills you have NOW to defeat whatever attack you are facing NOW. That's why having a FUNCTIONAL Delayed Sword [ although comparatively speaking a rare thing in Kenpo circles that I've seen and heard of ] is a good thing. It will resolve successfully the single attack that it's supposed to thwart. Having a UNIVERSALLY FUNCTIONAL Delayed Sword IS BETTER...as it resolves EVERY KIND OF ATTACK that you're likely to face. Remember...the BAD GUY IS NOT REQUIRED TO ATTACK US ONLY WITH THE ATTACKS THAT WE TRAINED TO DEFEAT. It is our responsiblity to impose our skill upon the BG...whatever he does, whatever the situation is. The best way to do that is via a Universally Functional technique and/or sequence.

5. Whatever lessons you may learn from a dysfunctional or less functional technique or sequence, you'd learn more of them better faster sooner and more permanently with a MORE functional technique or sequence...that works better in fights too.

6. I have never said anyone's Kenpo sucks or that Kenpo sucks or that I'm better than anyone or that everyone has to do what I do or that I'm here to save Kenpo...what I have said in no uncertain terms is that DYSFUNCTIONAL TRAINING PARADIGMS SUCK.

7. Everyone else either agrees with, misunderstands or disagrees with parts or all of the foregoing.

 

[Flying Crane]

Define "ways". One or two "ways"? Is this the grappling and striking way? The weapon and multifighting way? The Hung Gar way? The Wing Chun way? The Muay Thai way? There are as many ways as there are problems and preferences. We might have one or two ways when we only have one or two problems to solve and one or two preferences.

you are avoiding the question.

take the "typical" EPAK curriculum, with some 154 SD techs plus extensions, if you do them. If you can take every one of these and get each of them to work against anything, then why have so many? Why not keep 2 or 3 or a half dozen of your favorites, just to give you some options, and dump the rest? What is the point of having a fuller curriculum if you can get each tech to work against anything, from day one?

and, how can you have the time to drill a large curriculum like that, against everything? That takes a huge amount of work and time and effort for each tech. With a curriculum like that, to keep those skills sharp with all the techs, you would not have time to sleep or eat. Only train.

You are the one stating that you can yourself, and you can teach your students, to use each technique against anything. So there is no weapon way, there is no multi opponent way. There is just "SD Technique" that you can use in all scenarios, including against weapons, against multiple opponents, when flat on your back, etc.

So I'm just saying, if this is true, what point do you see in keeping more that a couple of the SD techniques?

and since you brought it up, how would you define the Muay Thai way or the Hung Gar way, or the Wing Chun way?

 

[ATACX GYM]

you are avoiding the question.

take the "typical" EPAK curriculum, with some 154 SD techs plus extensions, if you do them. If you can take every one of these and get each of them to work against anything, then why have so many? Why not keep 2 or 3 or a half dozen of your favorites, just to give you some options, and dump the rest? What is the point of having a fuller curriculum if you can get each tech to work against anything, from day one?

and, how can you have the time to drill a large curriculum like that, against everything? That takes a huge amount of work and time and effort for each tech. With a curriculum like that, to keep those skills sharp with all the techs, you would not have time to sleep or eat. Only train.

You are the one stating that you can yourself, and you can teach your students, to use each technique against anything. So there is no weapon way, there is no multi opponent way. There is just "SD Technique" that you can use in all scenarios, including against weapons, against multiple opponents, when flat on your back, etc.

So I'm just saying, if this is true, what point do you see in keeping more that a couple of the SD techniques?

and since you brought it up, how would you define the Muay Thai way or the Hung Gar way, or the Wing Chun way?

I am not avoiding the question, I answered it directly already. But here's an expansion that might help you out here: having a million ways to do one thing and a million ways to do a million ways makes you a warrior veeeerrrrryyyyy hard to defend against and defeat. If you have 1 or 2 sequences...no matter versatile...at some point? You'll get caught. You're still ADAPTIBLE but you become PREDICTABLE to cagey foes after awhile [ if they survive the initial onslaught or if they've heard of your exploits and what you use to defeat guys ], and PREDICTABILITY limits your chances of success.

If you have 154 base sequences each comprised of techniques that are in and of themselves multifaceted? You NEVER become PREDICTABLE. You can FORCE your opponent into a shocked "whut tha holy f---!!!" moment and capitalize upon his/her/their mistake. You never develope a mental complacency from a unbroken string of successes using your "GO TO " sequences.

In essence? Having these sequences helps you to have an exapansive vocabulary of combat movement. The less expansive your vocabulary? The less conversations you can engage in and comprehend, the less material you can read, etc. etc.


Training the 154 sequences is actually pretty easy. But first...lemme answer your question:

" and since you brought it up, how would you define the Muay Thai way or the Hung Gar way, or the Wing Chun way?"

To me, every martial art is essentially a combination of its philosophy and training paradigm. Use your body in such a way that you beat up the other guy/prevent you and yours from being injured, and develope the character and discipline to be a better more joyful human being in the process. That's pretty much it, imo.


Now the [ at first glance ] ponderous EPK system seems difficult to drill, but the truth is? It's NOT hard to do.


[video=youtube_share;0I8JNJG3d84]http://youtu.be/0I8JNJG3d84[/video]


I can and do run the whole 154 sequence curriculum with mitt drills alone...and get crazy reps. It's even easier WITHOUT the mitts. Most of our week is dedicated purely to drills, weapons, kata and isolated sparring. It's EASY to do. I can and do drill whole belt ranks with a default technique with mitts alone. Today I did Purple and Blue Belt techs with the default technique being BEGGING HANDS. Easy money.

 

[Twin Fist]

dont feed the troll people. Ignore it and it will get huffy and go away. Trust me, it isnt worth it to get engaged with this clown.

 

[ATACX GYM]

dont feed the troll people. Ignore it and it will get huffy and go away. Trust me, it isnt worth it to get engaged with this clown.

I would respond to this, but your own posts and opinion on the matter are so devastatingly clear and true, that I'll let you tell on yourself:

taken from THIS post on Kenpotalk.com http://www.kenpotalk.com/forum/showt...799#post154799

*************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************

Originally Posted by Twin Fist
I know of what i speak because i am an ***. Always have been, and everyone that knows me will testify, I am a giant ***. And there have been many, many times when i could have shared something, helped someone, or contributed, but being an *** stopped people from giving a crap what i had to say.

dont let that happen to you.

*****************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************

Don't worry, John aka Twin Fist...I will make sure that it won't happen to me. Thanks for the advice.

 

[MJS]

My responses to your enumerated post...


1. I never said "everyone" about anything. We're still in lockstep.

2. Most sport oriented guys do alot of what I mention...depending upon what sport they pursue. However, I know none that do ALL of what I mention.

3. There are sport oriented guys who are duped...but not about the supremacy of performance. If you pitched a performance oriented argument to them? The chances are high that they'd find merit in it. Not a single sport guy--not ONE--that I have met and spoke to over the past decades has had the SLIGHTEST problem with what I offer and maaaaannny of them have come to train with me directly after I tell them what I do.

4. CO-SIGN!!!

1) You said 'They' which I took as everyone.

2) They do weapon training, first aid, multi man attacks, etc.? Really? There may be a handful of gyms that do, but I'd wager that the majority of pure sport oriented places do not.

3) I disagree. They're duped or were duped into thinking that what they were doing was the end all be all.

4) Ok

 

[Flying Crane]

I am not avoiding the question, I answered it directly already. But here's an expansion that might help you out here: having a million ways to do one thing and a million ways to do a million ways makes you a warrior veeeerrrrryyyyy hard to defend against and defeat. If you have 1 or 2 sequences...no matter versatile...at some point? You'll get caught. You're still ADAPTIBLE but you become PREDICTABLE to cagey foes after awhile [ if they survive the initial onslaught or if they've heard of your exploits and what you use to defeat guys ], and PREDICTABILITY limits your chances of success.

If you have 154 base sequences each comprised of techniques that are in and of themselves multifaceted? You NEVER become PREDICTABLE. You can FORCE your opponent into a shocked "whut tha holy f---!!!" moment and capitalize upon his/her/their mistake. You never develope a mental complacency from a unbroken string of successes using your "GO TO " sequences.

In essence? Having these sequences helps you to have an exapansive vocabulary of combat movement. The less expansive your vocabulary? The less conversations you can engage in and comprehend, the less material you can read, etc. etc.


Training the 154 sequences is actually pretty easy. But first...lemme answer your question:

" and since you brought it up, how would you define the Muay Thai way or the Hung Gar way, or the Wing Chun way?"

To me, every martial art is essentially a combination of its philosophy and training paradigm. Use your body in such a way that you beat up the other guy/prevent you and yours from being injured, and develope the character and discipline to be a better more joyful human being in the process. That's pretty much it, imo.


Now the [ at first glance ] ponderous EPK system seems difficult to drill, but the truth is? It's NOT hard to do.


[video=youtube_share;0I8JNJG3d84]http://youtu.be/0I8JNJG3d84[/video]


I can and do run the whole 154 sequence curriculum with mitt drills alone...and get crazy reps. It's even easier WITHOUT the mitts. Most of our week is dedicated purely to drills, weapons, kata and isolated sparring. It's EASY to do. I can and do drill whole belt ranks with a default technique with mitts alone. Today I did Purple and Blue Belt techs with the default technique being BEGGING HANDS. Easy money.

This is simply not an approach that I can agree with. to each his own.

 

[ATACX GYM]

This is simply not an approach that I can agree with. to each his own.

Okay. I'm cool with that.

 

[ATACX GYM]

1) You said 'They' which I took as everyone.

2) They do weapon training, first aid, multi man attacks, etc.? Really? There may be a handful of gyms that do, but I'd wager that the majority of pure sport oriented places do not.

3) I disagree. They're duped or were duped into thinking that what they were doing was the end all be all.

4) Ok

1. "They" doesn't mean "everyone"...but I see where you're coming from. I'll try to be more clear in the future.

2. Some do weapon training and mulit attacks, [ like the BKF and several associations I've become familiar with growing up, including Twin Dragons ], but none that I know of do First Aid/CPR. Like I said: they do "a lot of what I mention..." not ALL of what I mention.

3. They weren't duped into thinking that what they do was the end all be all. They were already comfortable with the notion of cross-training. That was one of the main reasons why it was so easy to reach them: they were already adherents of the concept of the supremacy of performance.

4. Cool.

 

[Chris Parker]

This may take a page or two....

Actually--as Chris the non-Kenpo man's link to my SWORD AND HAMMER PT. 1 AND 2 thread will resoundingly prove--there is not a single atom of his statements which at any time bear even the slightest factual similarity to the real world. His opinion is essentially comprised of utter contrariness...for the sake of being contrary. There is no--and never has been nor will there ever be--even the most inifinitesimal facts to support his negative opinions about me.

Well, let's look at what my statements say.

I said that you were wrong repeatedly. I have provided critiques that demonstrate that throughout the other thread, as well as having you demonstrate constantly your lack of understanding.

I said you have missed what you're being corrected on. Well, read the thread. You continue to miss what you're being corrected on here, there, and pretty well everywhere.

I said you used Doc to provide support for your statements (really, you were using your incorrect interpretations of Doc's words as some form of support for your statements), until Doc, on a thread on Kempotalk which was used in the Sword and Hammer thread, basically said, point blank, that you didn't get it. Again, that's in the thread.

The article you wrote here also misses what you were being corrected on both in that thread and in Doc's post/article.

There really isn't anything that can be stated as "facts" (as in 1 + 1 = 2 kinda facts), as it's all in the observation. But simply reading it shows that everything I stated has support, and you're simply ignoring anything that genuinely challenges you.

I invite him and any and all critics to prove--PROVE--otherwise. Let us move beyond cogent posts to empirical data.

Empirical data that you keep missing the point? Read the thread.

I have provided video evidence to buttress my position with real world data.

No, you've used video to demonstrate what you think you're saying, and what you think you're arguing with myself (and others). It's never once actually backed anything up, or provided anything of value to the questions you've been posed. The same goes with your "data".

I have provided historical evidence drawn from the pioneer of Kenpo himself to buttress my position.

No, you've provided a few selected quotes, which you've misinterpreted and been corrected on by Doc and others, as some attempt at supporting your stance. It didn't work.

I disagree with several of our most decorated and respected Elders on various positions of import, but they all boil down to a simple, single concept:

Whatever technique that you learn? It must be universally functional. THE SAME TECHNIQUE OR SEQUENCE must operate equally well whether you're armed or not, in multifights or not, ground grappling or ground fighting or not, regardless of stance or position, in a 360 degree circle, whether you're escaping/evading or not, rescuing someone or not,address every concern in The Web of Knowledge, address transitioning to and through any or all of the above or not, and address any combination of any or all of the above. It's...the essence of common sense.

Firstly, there is no such thing as a single technique that fits all situations. Thinking there is is a sign of amateurism when it comes to understanding martial arts. Especially for someone who claims the kinds of ranks and experience you do. Next, when it was pointed out to you that that was what you were saying on the Sword and Hammer thread, you denied it. Now you're saying it again? Really?

Let me help you out a bit here, Ras. Principles adapt, techniques are specific to circumstance. A technique is an expression of those principles (one possible one), and those principles can be utilised in many different ways and different circumstances, but even then, there are no principles that are equally good for all circumstances. So, no. You're wrong. Again.

Not all or even most martial artists do so. Not all or even most martial artists are MANDATED to do so if they choose to do otherwise. But whatever concern they choose not to address and/or develope combat proficiency in? THAT'S THE CONCERN THAT THEY'RE VULNERABLE TO. You don't address and get proficient in offensive and defensive leg kicks/blocks? Well...guess who's getting kicked in the leg? You don't address ground submissions? Well...guess who's getting tapped snapped or napped? You don't address multifights? Well...guess who's gettin stomped in a multifight? Etc etc.

Please.

Tell me, do you train bomb disarmament as well?

But to the point, I train in all that and more, son, so I don't know who you're trying to convince of anything here. But what I don't do is make the mistake that a single set of actions (technique) is going to work in each situation. They simply can't. And each art has it's own focus, which dictates it's approach. I just don't think you understand martial arts enough to get that, though.

Btw Chris, I'm still waiting upon that video that you never produced to prove your point...which of course is never going to come because it's like all your other evidence: spurious and non-existent.

You have to be kidding, yeah? A conversation from a year ago, where I ended by explaining my point, and telling you that if you still didn't get it that I might be able to put something together for you, but doubt it'd do much, and you're whining about it now? Everyone else could see what I was saying without the video, as the evidence that there were problems with your video are found in your video, not anything I could or would put up.

I actually recall this gentleman...LawDog...from YOUTUBE. I hope that he's able to see that my blunt talk is simply that: accurate, not self-aggrandizing at all, direct, unflinching. It is a response borne from Doc's MT article challenge to me...WHAT IF RAS STOPPED ASKING WHAT IF?...and that article was borne from the multipage threads that arose on both KenpoTalk.com AAAAND here on MartialTalk.com due to my incessant questioning about the origins of The Ideal Phase...and the dysfunctionality of it.

I think it might be important to take a look at the actual article from Doc that has spurred this one from you here, Ras, as to many of the people here, your entire article/post doesn't have much context. So, to that end, here it is: http://martialtalkmagazine.com/what-if-ras-stop-asking-what-if-dr-ron-chapel/

There's quite a fair bit of information that Doc provides there, but the key to it, I feel, is the exact same thing that Flying Crane and myself said to you already (myself not even having a Kempo background, yet I could see it pretty damn clearly), in that you have missed the point of the Ideal Phase techniques themselves, critiquing people for teaching the base version, as it's not immediately going to what you think reality is. The reasons for the different versions are also explained by Doc, with a lot of the freedom coming from the fact that Ed Parker was getting people with other martial backgrounds to teach his system, by implementing his approaches over their mechanics and ideas... if today, students are coming in with only Kempo as their training, they need the more rigid, or solid mechanics to begin their study and exploration.

In other words, you had a misunderstanding about the methods, you were corrected by someone who learnt directly from Ed Parker himself, and witnessed all of this developing, and you're still arguing that you know better what Ed Parker meant? Even though your contention isn't actually supported by Ed Parkers words unless you remove quite a few key statements and points from his words in the first place?

How did it come about? Who authored each and every Ideal Phase? How did we get a UNIVERSAL Ideal Phase when Mr. Parker very specifically not only didn't want such a thing but his definition of The Ideal Phase Analytical Technique Process specifically prevents such a thing from occurring because each head of each Kenpo school and group were to fashion their OWN expression of Alternating Maces or Sword and Hammer or whatever?

No, the Ideal Phase Analytical Technique Process starts with a single, definite technique. From there, when you reach enough experience and understanding, you move onto "What If". Then, later, when you are a Master, then you can get to formulating your own version.

Well, Doc answered. I agreed with everything except the stricture placed upon keeping one's response within a specific narrow band. Doc said essentially that alll Sword and Hammer sequences had room for individuality and were mandated to do so, but they all in the end had to bear a significant physical resemblance to this:

[video=youtube_share;oJbyIBmhDN0]http://youtu.be/oJbyIBmhDN0[/video]

My response was...what is significant about that up there^^? What's shown up above should be a White Belt drill that we learned to do when we learned how to throw handswords to the cardinal directions and any point in a 360 degree circle around us, repeat the drill with the hammerfist, then repeat with combinations of all the techniques we learned in White Belt [ in my Gym, this is BELOW WHITE BELT...it's a Pre-White Belt Level A technique. The lowest rank in my Gym.

You're kidding, right? What's significant about the fundamental form of Sword and Hammer? It teaches the lessons that are found in Sword and Hammer! That's why anything that claims to be Sword and Hammer, or a version of it from EPAK, needs to have similarities (at least!) to that version! That's really what you've been told, had explained to you, and been questioned on for 34 pages on the other thread! Hell, Ras, I was giving you lists of what is significant in that technique, but you don't have anywhere near the understanding to actually get what I was telling you. And your comment here shows that all you can see is a series of actions, not any of the lessons that are actually present.

Can you see yet why I say you're still quite a bit behind here?

The difference when I teach my students our iteration of Sword and Hammer is that it presupposes a surprise attack that lands for the most part...and you must respond while you're dazed, in a position of disadvantage, and while being belabored with blows from your opponent.

We recognize right off top that your opponent will not be helpfully standing still and posing for you, and the BG won't be sitting there allowing you to hit him. IN THE REAL WORLD, THE ATTACK THAT THE SWORD AND HAMMER IS SUPPOSED TO DEFEAT WILL BE SOMETHING LIKE THIS ATTACK:

[video=youtube_share;A36Bw5I3-g0]http://youtu.be/A36Bw5I3-g0[/video]

Oh, good, the videos again...

See, now you keep saying that, but your contention (that that is the attack Sword and Hammer is supposed to deal with) is not supported by the technique Sword and Hammer itself, nor by anyone else from the Kempo community. What makes you think that the technique was designed to handle an attack not present in the technique itself?

In other words, no.

Will the most common training expression of THE SWORD AND HAMMER deal with that attack? NOPE. The TRAINING PARADIGM SUCKS. Kenpo doesn't suck. The Sword and Hammer doesn't suck. BUT THE TRAINING PARADIGM FOR THE MOST COMMON EXPRESSION OF THE SWORD AND HAMMER SUCKS. Do you understand and grasp the difference I'm making here? I have confidence that most of you do.

Now, look at the above attack, and consider that most flank attacks aren't even preceded by a grab [ essentially a Hockey Punch from the flanks ]. Guys just catch you nappin and FIRE A SUCKER PUNCH ON YOU. Like so:

[video=youtube_share;LFnIESr658k]http://youtu.be/LFnIESr658k[/video]

Dude, constantly posting the same videos doesn't make them any more right, nor your understanding any better. Does the most common form of Sword and Hammer deal with that attack? No. Is it supposed to? Only according to you. Most others can see what Sword and Hammer is actually dealing with, so your entire point is irrelevant. It's like arguing that a kick defence is useless against a bear hug... well, okay. But is it meant to be against a bear hug?

Again, this is why I say you just don't get the actual original technique itself, as you seem to want it (and most others) to be something they're not, then deride them for not being what you think they should be. On top of that, you claim it's the training paradigm, which is garbage. The fact that the technique isn't against a sucker punch is a matter of context and content for the technique, not a training approach that doesn't deal with sucker punches. I think you're using words you don't understand there.

Do you train your Sword and Hammer...or ANY technique...to deal with that? Take a look-see at the most common Sword and Hammer and honestly ask yourself if you've trained for the more common reality that you'll be called upon to use it in. The truth is? The overwhelming majority of us...90%+ I'd guesstimate--have NOT trained our Sword and Hammer for this and have not changed our Sword and Hammer's expression to deal with this reality.

Considering that you don't understand the actual attack that Sword and Hammer deals with, despite it being repeatedly explained to you, I don't think you're really in any position to say who deals with any form of "reality".

Now take the above and notice...these attacks can occur face to face, from the flanks, from the rear or any point in a 360 degree circle around you. Is your Sword and Hammer taught from DAY ONE to deal with this reality? Has your sensei sifu Coach whatever prepped you for this by changing the Sword and Hammer training methodology so that it's functional and it really works? No? Most haven't.

But I have.

[video=youtube_share;AuvuhW1u2WE]http://youtu.be/AuvuhW1u2WE[/video]

Dude, that video is so deeply flawed in terms of it's impracticalities and lack of realism that it'd take another thread or two to deal with. But more to the point, you're still missing the point of Sword and Hammer, instead trying to impose your personal beliefs onto it, rather than actually study the damn thing, and take from it what it teaches you.

You just don't get it.

How many Kenpo or Kempo instructors have considered making throws, takedowns, sweeps, displacements, unbalances, submission/compliance locks etc. an integral part of every single sequence they
teach and teach the whole expression seamlessly meshed with the grappling arsenal at your belt rank? Answer: Nowhere near enough have done so.

But I have.


[video=youtube_share;R-mmdyIHkjs]http://youtu.be/R-mmdyIHkjs[/video]

So now you're asking who adds in aspects that aren't part of the basic principles and ideas at all?

Study the technique itself, and learn what it's teaching. You don't have it yet. Once you do, you may realize just how redundant a lot of what you're saying and doing is.

What happens if you're KNOCKED DOWN by the surprise attack and you have to deal with a BG who's trying to stomp you out, punch you, knife you, or any combo of the above?

[video=youtube_share;8XsykPOhBRI]http://youtu.be/8XsykPOhBRI[/video]

Seriously, stop with the videos. You're trying to make an argument which is based in a false understanding of the argument itself. All it's doing is showing that you didn't get what you were being told in the first place.

Is it a common sight in Kenpo for your Sword and Hammer or whatever sequence you prefer to be trained for this reality? No?

It is for me and my students. In THE ATACX GYM, you are taught to use THE EXACT SAME TECHNIQUES ON THE GROUND AS YOU DO ON YOUR FEET.

[video=youtube_share;R-mmdyIHkjs]http://youtu.be/R-mmdyIHkjs[/video]

For crying out loud, Ras, no-one's arguing that training for practical application is bad, or having contingencies in your methods is bad, we're saying that what you're doing is based on a very shallow understanding of the realities and an almost complete lack of understanding of the techniques. Well, to be fair and not put words into anyone elses mouth, I'm saying that.

But wait...what if he sucker punches you, switches sides and keeps punching you or goes for a chokehold? Well, we already showed you that at THE ATACX GYM we train our techs to strike in a circle and the cardinal directions [ showing the part of our hybrid lineage that's BKF-Parker-Tracy ]...but we also realize that students must be equipped with techniques that deal with all the primary h2h categories and attacks, so we train our SWORD AND HAMMER vs these kinds of situations too:

Wow, was that ever bad. But seriously, what is your point? That you can do things against different attacks? So what, you really think you're the only one? Is it just that when everyone else does essentially the same version of a particular technique (say, Sword and Hammer), demonstrating it as is as it's a clearly defined set of actions with distinct principles and lessons, therefore not trying to get it to fit every single possible occasion, that you think that no-one else deals with all the different forms of attack that might be encountered? Just because they don't show it with one technique in particular? Are you kidding?

Listen, Ras, I deal with everything you've mentioned, and a whole hell of a lot more, but I can see the validity in Sword and Hammer (as well as the rest of the techniques) being codified and kept very definite in their teaching. You, on the other hand, seem to be so desperate for it to be a one-stop solution that you miss entirely the reason for Sword and Hammer existing in the first place. And these videos don't change that impression in the slightest.

So clearly I think Kenpo works. Clearly I think the techniques are valid. IT'S THE TRAINING PARADIGM AND ATTENDING MINDSET THAT IS DYSFUNCTIONAL AND PROBLEMATIC. The question isn't:"Why does THE ATACX GYM and a very veeerrry select few Kenpo schools even remotely address the kind of self-defense reality that I'm likely to encounter?" Nope. The question is:" WHY IN DA HELL DO THE OTHER 99% OF KENPO SCHOOLS NOT COVER THESE REALITIES?"

But you haven't dealt with the training paradigm or mindset, you've changed the mechanics and context to an entirely different attack and response. And you're really not dealing in reality, you're dealing in the worst possible of martial catch-22's, the dreaded "What If?" loop.

My question would be why do you ignore the lessons of your own system, and still claim to be teaching and training in it?

That's the question. And it's not self-aggrandizing, it's not ego-centric. It's the straight up real world reality. It's blunt talk that we need.

It is self-aggrandizing and ego-centric in the way you present it. It's not real world reality, as it's based in imagining all kinds of possibilities, to the point that the very basis of the technique and the lessons are lost completely. And you're really not very good at blunt talk. Here's some blunt talk for you:

It's why you need to ask "What If" like Ras does...or you suck.

You only need to ask "What If" like Ras does if you don't have enough depth of understanding in the technique itself in the first place. In other words, asking "What If" the way you do is a pretty good indication that your training and education in the art itself, frankly, sucked.