WTF TKD sparring hands down?

[mango.man]

I'm just curious here, but doesn't it bother you that if either one of the people getting kicked in the head had bothered to even attempt to block, the point wouldn't have scored? Or, at the very least, a possible concussion could have been avoided?

First off, an "attempt to block" will not absolutely prevent a score. A successful block might have.

Second, if they are just playing "tappity-tap" how is there any real possibility of concussion?

I understand that it's supposed to make you faster, but I really don't see the application of speed in those videos.

As for application of speed, granted these were not the fastest kicks in the world, but when I slowed the actual video and watched it frame by frame, from first motion to contact for both kicks was 12 frames. At 30 frames per second that is about .4 seconds. That is not too bad. She does it at home against BOB at 8 frames or just a fraction over a quarter second from first motion to contact.

She is working hard to make up that .15 seconds in competition.

Those kicks were sharp, though.

I will pass that onto her as she appreciates those type of comments.

 

[zDom]

Actually, according to the rules, each blow is supposed to deliver a 'trembling shock,' while light tapping blows are not supposed to be counted.

That's ONE of my gripes: is that it is no secret that "trembling shock" is SUPPOSED to be the criterion, but in actuality judges

a) often give points for "roundhouse" kicks that DON'T have trembling shock

and

b) WON'T give points for front kicks, side kicks, and punches that DO have trembling shock.

:angry:

 

[zDom]

Definitely go with the axe kick though as that seems quite effective especially if you chamber your axe kick to "disguise" it:

Back (Left) Leg Axe Kick -

Front (Right) Leg Skip Axe Kick -

And here is ANOTHER of my major gripes.

Look at the direction of motion on these two examples.

The FIRST comes upward and inward. That makes it a FRONT or STOMP kick, not an axe kick.

The SECOND comes in laterally against the SIDE of the head. That makes it a CRESCENT KICK.

An axe kicks comes FROM ABOVE, with a downward direction of motion to the target.

Learn the art, learn the correct name for kicks, realize that there more kicks out there than "axe kick" and "roundhouse kick" and that they all have specific directions of motion.

Sure, terminology varies from school to school, but they should at least differentiate between a kick that comes straight in, from the side or from above instead of lumping them all together under one name when the mechanics are significantly different.

 

[mango.man]

And here is ANOTHER of my major gripes.

Look at the direction of motion on these two examples.

The FIRST comes upward and inward. That makes it a FRONT or STOMP kick, not an axe kick.

The SECOND comes in laterally against the SIDE of the head. That makes it a CRESCENT KICK.

An axe kicks comes FROM ABOVE, with a downward direction of motion to the target.

Learn the art, learn the correct name for kicks, realize that there more kicks out there than "axe kick" and "roundhouse kick" and that they all have specific directions of motion.

Sure, terminology varies from school to school, but they should at least differentiate between a kick that comes straight in, from the side or from above instead of lumping them all together under one name when the mechanics are significantly different.

I disagree. Both kicks are straight up and strike on the downward motion, which to me indicates an Axe Kick. A crescent kick is that which is seen in the clip in my sig which clearly comes up and around laterally into the head. I think the fact that she is at least partially chambering the kick is what is causing you the confusion as most people would classify an axe kick as purely a straight legged kick. As you can see from her opponents (both of them) immediate reactions to the kicks, by chambering on the way up it gives the perception that it will be a front kick and they both move their hands to the front of the chest level as if to attempt to block a front kick but in actuality, being an axe kick they are not prepared for the strike on the downward motion that actually occurs. That was the point of my initial comment when I posted the links where I said "be sure to chamber when doing your axe kick to disguise it" or words to that effect.

I did not post these as perfect examples of an axe kick. Just to show that such a kick is often very effective in a WTF match since Sylo indicated that he would use such tools if he were to fight in a WTF tourney.

For a better angle on the second kick check out http://www.mookas.us/media_view.asp?news_no=1388 although you will have to wait for the video to download at 6:44 you will see the same kick but from a better angle and you should see that it clearly is not a crescent kick.

In the same video at 5:53 and 6:04 Red does what I would refer to as crescent kicks.

 

[Sylo]

First off, an "attempt to block" will not absolutely prevent a score. A successful block might have.

Second, if they are just playing "tappity-tap" how is there any real possibility of concussion?



As for application of speed, granted these were not the fastest kicks in the world, but when I slowed the actual video and watched it frame by frame, from first motion to contact for both kicks was 12 frames. At 30 frames per second that is about .4 seconds. That is not too bad. She does it at home against BOB at 8 frames or just a fraction over a quarter second from first motion to contact.

She is working hard to make up that .15 seconds in competition.



I will pass that onto her as she appreciates those type of comments.

Ok. I was at work when you posted those videos.. so I didn't get to watch them. Now that I have had a chance to watch them. Here are my thoughts.

1. I appreciate the fact that ypu are taking up for your daughter. If my son was doing the same thing. I'd be defending him too. Its parental nature to do so. I think its great she has taken an interest in the martial arts, even if it is only in sport. At least she's not contributing to the ever popular majority rules sport trends of "football/basketball" that runs todays school systems.

2. You proved our point. Especially by slowing the videos down. Your daughter has awesome kicks. Like already said, I don't really call those "axe kicks". Axe kicks, go up.. and then down. Secondly, her opponent now that you mention it.. reminds me of BOB, seeing as how she's standing there with her hands down by her sides. No wonder she got smacked. Even if she KNEW how to defend against that kick. had her hands been up, she would have already won half the battle. Instead she would have had to use wasted movement to get the hand up to block.. which we all saw she failed to do. Your daughter has good high kicks, but her opponent might as well have just stood there.

3. If, the opponent had been trained to fight with her hands up. A simple block, and reverse punch to the face would have put an end to this fight. Unfortunately, the rules don't allow hands to the head. ITF doesn't allow punches to the face (not that I know of) but at least they do allow some hand techniques to the face so that this strategy would have still worked. I would have used the block to throw her off balance, and i would have countered with a punch. Simple. effective. Seeing as how her hands aren't up either, she wouldn't be able to defend against it.

see what happens when you drop your hands?

but in the competitions like your daughter competes in. There's never any danger of getting hit like that.. so why put up your dukes? and that is exactly why they don't. They don't have to

sadly, as hard as I looked I could not find many WTF or ITF fights where anyone had their hands up. Am I missing something? I thought this only applied to WTF and ATA, but I saw an awful lot of ITF guys (thats how the video was labeled) doing the same thing. I watched a few ITF world championship vids, and almost noone had their hands up. What happened? My school teaches us adimantly to put our hands up.. am I missing something?

 

[mango.man]

but in the competitions like your daughter competes in. There's never any danger of getting hit like that.. so why put up your dukes? and that is exactly why they don't. They don't have to

It is not that they don't have to, and that is not why they don't. They don't because if they did, they would lose on points.

Trust me, you are not the first ITF person to say that they could win in WTF competition, nor will you be the last. Problem is that many of those who have tried go in with their hands up by their head, and take 7 rapid fire round kicks to the hogu and lose 7-0 in about 4 seconds.

I have seen it happen. This is why I suggested you give a WTF tourney a shot. Then you would see that it would not be as easy as it looks to get in there and score your points or KO the other person.

And if my daughter were ever in a fight where her opponent has been taught to keep her hands up at all costs, than she probably wouldn't waste her energy doing any axe kicks. Like I said, 7 "bullet" roundhouses would end the fight with little or no effort on her part.

 

[Sylo]

It is not that they don't have to, and that is not why they don't. They don't because if they did, they would lose on points.

Trust me, you are not the first ITF person to say that they could win in WTF competition, nor will you be the last. Problem is that many of those who have tried go in with their hands up by their head, and take 7 rapid fire round kicks to the hogu and lose 7-0 in about 4 seconds.

I have seen it happen. This is why I suggested you give a WTF tourney a shot. Then you would see that it would not be as easy as it looks to get in there and score your points or KO the other person.

And if my daughter were ever in a fight where her opponent has been taught to keep her hands up at all costs, than she probably wouldn't waste her energy doing any axe kicks. Like I said, 7 "bullet" roundhouses would end the fight with little or no effort on her part.

I think we are still missing the idea here. I have no interest in competing in a tournament with those rules. It goes against everything I was taught by my instructor and it goes against everything I think TKD is supposed to be for. 1 well time reverse punch or packfist to the nose and those roundhouse kicks will be stopped in there tracks. Anyone dumb enough to let someone chase them around the ring with the same move over and over, needs to go back and train some more. Your daughter is very good at sport karate. Unless we are misunderstanding each other, your still trying to defend the fact that'd she win an actual fight with what she does. Thats where our problem is with it.

In order for me to beat anyone at those tourneys. I'd have to conform to pretty much only kicks. And I'd also have to learn all the sport karate "blitzes" and "fake outs" that they do. If she can hit someone with 7 consecutive roundhouse kicks.. mad props to her. I don't think I'd ever allow anyone to do that to me, but hey.. what do I know?

None of the tournaments I have ever competed in fought like that. Does she train traditional on top of the sport? I really do understand the "Sport" facet of it. I really do. I realize she probably enjoys winning trophies.. heck I wouldn't mind that either. But I also like learning the martial arts, and not a commercialized watered down version of it just for the sake of winning a few plastic medals. Its the same reason ATA gets the bad rap it does.

I might try going to the battle of atlanta this year.. and I'll put my knowledge to the test.

 

[bluekey88]

It is not that they don't have to, and that is not why they don't. They don't because if they did, they would lose on points.

Trust me, you are not the first ITF person to say that they could win in WTF competition, nor will you be the last. Problem is that many of those who have tried go in with their hands up by their head, and take 7 rapid fire round kicks to the hogu and lose 7-0 in about 4 seconds.

I have seen it happen. This is why I suggested you give a WTF tourney a shot. Then you would see that it would not be as easy as it looks to get in there and score your points or KO the other person.

And if my daughter were ever in a fight where her opponent has been taught to keep her hands up at all costs, than she probably wouldn't waste her energy doing any axe kicks. Like I said, 7 "bullet" roundhouses would end the fight with little or no effort on her part.

To beat a dead horse and to clarify what MM is saying....when you keep youtr hands up in a conventional boxing style gaurd, it is very easy to throw kick up under the elbows. They're fats, they hit hard and are hard to block as the rules prohibit dropping the elbows on the legs or blocking with the shins (liek in Muay thai). Keepign your hand sup simply gives too many scoring opportunities.

It is better in this situation to keep a lower gaurd and rely on footwork and head movement to prevent head shots. As I bveleive has been pointed out, in other situation, one does something different. the right tool for the right job. TKD has ALL the tools (regardless of association affiliation), it's up to individuals to train hard. Your top level people should be able to be competiive in various competion settings (with different rule sets) as well as be able to adequately defend themselves. I, for one, think that's the case for a lot of TKDists...maybe not all, but that's just the way of things...most will be somewhere on teh bell curve with few residing in the tails. Same in Karate, wrestling, street fu, etc...

Peace,
Erik

 

[Sylo]

To beat a dead horse and to clarify what MM is saying....when you keep youtr hands up in a conventional boxing style gaurd, it is very easy to throw kick up under the elbows. They're fats, they hit hard and are hard to block as the rules prohibit dropping the elbows on the legs or blocking with the shins (liek in Muay thai). Keepign your hand sup simply gives too many scoring opportunities.

It is better in this situation to keep a lower gaurd and rely on footwork and head movement to prevent head shots. As I bveleive has been pointed out, in other situation, one does something different. the right tool for the right job. TKD has ALL the tools (regardless of association affiliation), it's up to individuals to train hard. Your top level people should be able to be competiive in various competion settings (with different rule sets) as well as be able to adequately defend themselves. I, for one, think that's the case for a lot of TKDists...maybe not all, but that's just the way of things...most will be somewhere on teh bell curve with few residing in the tails. Same in Karate, wrestling, street fu, etc...

Peace,
Erik

Right. this is 100% correct. The problem is.. these schools are only giving them a hammer, when one day they may need the nails too.

they teach them ONLY what they need to win tournaments. Thats not martial arts, its tennis practice.

If they have a traditional martial arts background, and are being taught everything and not just 3 kicks, and how to dodge everyone elses..

then you might be on to something.

 

[bluekey88]

Who's saying they"re only given a hammer? I'm at a WTF affiliated school and I'm pretty sure I've got a full set of ratchet screwdrivers, bolt cutters and a decent block plane in there as well.

Just because you only see the tools necesary to use in a particualr competition does not mean that what happens in the school outside of comepetition is limited to that.

Maybe my section of the county is unusual, but all the TKD schools I've been to...even the ones more competition focused than mine, teach a full curriculum including all aspects of striking (hands and feet0 sparring, self defense, etc.

Peace,
Erik

 

[Sylo]

Who's saying they"re only given a hammer? I'm at a WTF affiliated school and I'm pretty sure I've got a full set of ratchet screwdrivers, bolt cutters and a decent block plane in there as well.

Just because you only see the tools necesary to use in a particualr competition does not mean that what happens in the school outside of comepetition is limited to that.

Maybe my section of the county is unusual, but all the TKD schools I've been to...even the ones more competition focused than mine, teach a full curriculum including all aspects of striking (hands and feet0 sparring, self defense, etc.

Peace,
Erik

Once again. Your right. I totally agree. I actually went to a tourney one time, and sparred a guy. He was really fast, had really nice kicks, and a mean jumping back fist. I beat him, but it was a really good fight. Some said the most entertaining to watch of the tournament, because of how fast we both were.

After the match, I asked him what style TKD he practiced, and he said WTF. He had his hands up for the most part, and I beat him mainly because I saw him do his signature jumping backfist on the 3 guys he beat before me. He was beating everyone with that, so I already knew what to expect. I gave him props, because he was really good.

I think location is part of it as well. But the main gripe is that the olympics in particular has painted a picture to the general public that all forms of TKD are like that, when even not all WTF is like that.

This is the kind of nonsense I'm talking about, and this is not just in TKD either..

these people are supposed to the best in the "world?"

 

[mango.man]

Unless we are misunderstanding each other, your still trying to defend the fact that'd she win an actual fight with what she does. Thats where our problem is with it.

That is exactly where you are misunderstanding me.

I have never stated or defended the fact that she could or would win a street fight with what she does.

Quite the contrary in fact, in that I have made it very clear that she knows that when it comes to a street fight that there is no room for bouncing and axe kicking. Kick the guy in the balls and run the opposite direction is tip #1 for a street fight. If they grab hold of you or get you on the ground, bite, spit, gouge eyes, scream, crack them over the head with a nearby rock or anything else you can grab, what ever it takes to break free and then run in the opposite direction. All techniques that would likely get her thrown out of just about any dojang on the planet, but still the best techniques to use in a real fight situation.

 

[mango.man]

I think location is part of it as well. But the main gripe is that the olympics in particular has painted a picture to the general public that all forms of TKD are like that, when even not all WTF is like that.

This is the kind of nonsense I'm talking about, and this is not just in TKD either..

these people are supposed to the best in the "world?"

99.999% of the world have never seen any form of TKD, be it in the olympics or anywhere else. OK, maybe not 99.999% but a very huge majority. So I would not be too concerned with the general public's perception of TKD.

As for the video, I have lost count of how many tourneys we have been to that billed the event as "The World Championships". Most recently back in Jan or Feb of this year. We were at this crappy little event, just looking to get some ring time to try out some new things. As soon as my daughter put the beat down on some girl, another master approached me with his business card and a flyer for his tournament The 2008 World TKD Championships and begging us to attend. I was like mmmm probably not but thanks and his response was "But this is THE WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS!!!" Of course it was held in a Jr High School Gymnasium, which is where I expect all World Championships to be held. We did not go.

As far as I am concerned there are 2 World Championship events in TKD. On even number years there is the WTF Jr World Championships and on odd number years there is the WTF World Championships. Each of these events allow attendance only by the National Governing Bodies National Team of each participating country. There is no such thing as an "Open World Championship" event such as that in the video you posted, clearly titled "Sparring 2006 US Open Karate World Championships Tournament". That title is completely contradictory.

None of the tournaments I have ever competed in fought like that. Does she train traditional on top of the sport? I really do understand the "Sport" facet of it. I really do. I realize she probably enjoys winning trophies.. heck I wouldn't mind that either. But I also like learning the martial arts, and not a commercialized watered down version of it just for the sake of winning a few plastic medals.

At this time, and for the past couple of years, no, she does not train in "traditional". It is purely sport. As far as her feelings on winning trophies and medals, we have lost or just not picked up more trophies and medals than we have kept over the years so it certainly is not about hardware for her. The vast majority of those that I do know where they are, are tossed in a box in the den. She is in it because she hopes to represent the USA on the world stage someday. Be that in the WTF World Championships or the Olympics. She is not in it to earn another medal to leave at the awards table or toss in a box.

 

[bluekey88]

Once again. Your right. I totally agree. I actually went to a tourney one time, and sparred a guy. He was really fast, had really nice kicks, and a mean jumping back fist. I beat him, but it was a really good fight. Some said the most entertaining to watch of the tournament, because of how fast we both were.

After the match, I asked him what style TKD he practiced, and he said WTF. He had his hands up for the most part, and I beat him mainly because I saw him do his signature jumping backfist on the 3 guys he beat before me. He was beating everyone with that, so I already knew what to expect. I gave him props, because he was really good.

I think location is part of it as well. But the main gripe is that the olympics in particular has painted a picture to the general public that all forms of TKD are like that, when even not all WTF is like that.

This is the kind of nonsense I'm talking about, and this is not just in TKD either..

these people are supposed to the best in the "world?"

The Olympics is supposed to bea bout bringing th ebest a country has to offer. There is some debate about wetehr or not we did taht this year (politics and all)...but, 3 of our 4 comnpetitors medaled. As for the clip you posted...that wasn't Olympic style sparring. If it was a TKD tourney...it might've been an AAU tourney wich has sections for point stop as well as olympic style sparring. Those are two different beasts due to their rule sets and require different startegies to be successful.

It doesn't change the fact that competition is but a part of the whole. TKD doesn't do "self-defense" sparring tourneys. I'm not even sure such a thing exists (although the RBSD guys might do something like that). However, if it's any kind of competition, sooner or later rules and such will have people gaming the game and exploiting loopholes to find advantages.

That, my friend is human nature and has nothing to do with style or art.

Peace,
Erik

 

[Sylo]

The Olympics is supposed to bea bout bringing th ebest a country has to offer. There is some debate about wetehr or not we did taht this year (politics and all)...but, 3 of our 4 comnpetitors medaled. As for the clip you posted...that wasn't Olympic style sparring. If it was a TKD tourney...it might've been an AAU tourney wich has sections for point stop as well as olympic style sparring. Those are two different beasts due to their rule sets and require different startegies to be successful.

It doesn't change the fact that competition is but a part of the whole. TKD doesn't do "self-defense" sparring tourneys. I'm not even sure such a thing exists (although the RBSD guys might do something like that). However, if it's any kind of competition, sooner or later rules and such will have people gaming the game and exploiting loopholes to find advantages.

That, my friend is human nature and has nothing to do with style or art.

Peace,
Erik

Your both right.

What I posted was the US OPEN Karate championships help in Orlando Florida. ESPN covers it, and I believe its sanctioned by NASKA.

I was just saying, that whatever the nonsense they were doing in the video to me is "worse" than Olympic style sparring. Alot of the competitors looked cocky and had attitudes.. with all the hand raising and such. I would like to "compete" but its looking like the AAU is the closest thing to what I am looking for. I'm not training sport karate for it though. I'll go in using what I get from class, and will either win or lose.

No big deal.

Mad Props to your daughter for wanting to go that far with it. I wish I had of when I was that age... alas its too late now.

 

[BrandonLucas]

99.999% of the world have never seen any form of TKD, be it in the olympics or anywhere else. OK, maybe not 99.999% but a very huge majority. So I would not be too concerned with the general public's perception of TKD.

As for the video, I have lost count of how many tourneys we have been to that billed the event as "The World Championships". Most recently back in Jan or Feb of this year. We were at this crappy little event, just looking to get some ring time to try out some new things. As soon as my daughter put the beat down on some girl, another master approached me with his business card and a flyer for his tournament The 2008 World TKD Championships and begging us to attend. I was like mmmm probably not but thanks and his response was "But this is THE WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS!!!" Of course it was held in a Jr High School Gymnasium, which is where I expect all World Championships to be held. We did not go.

As far as I am concerned there are 2 World Championship events in TKD. On even number years there is the WTF Jr World Championships and on odd number years there is the WTF World Championships. Each of these events allow attendance only by the National Governing Bodies National Team of each participating country. There is no such thing as an "Open World Championship" event such as that in the video you posted, clearly titled "Sparring 2006 US Open Karate World Championships Tournament". That title is completely contradictory.



At this time, and for the past couple of years, no, she does not train in "traditional". It is purely sport. As far as her feelings on winning trophies and medals, we have lost or just not picked up more trophies and medals than we have kept over the years so it certainly is not about hardware for her. The vast majority of those that I do know where they are, are tossed in a box in the den. She is in it because she hopes to represent the USA on the world stage someday. Be that in the WTF World Championships or the Olympics. She is not in it to earn another medal to leave at the awards table or toss in a box.

Ok, this is what concerns me:

You say that you are not too concerned with the general public's perception of TKD.

How do you expect the ART to grow? If people constantly see the competition side of it all, and that's all they see, what's going to happen to the MARTIAL ART side of it?

It's going to disappear, that's what's going to happen.

What goes on in those tourney's is not TKD. I don't care what you want to call it, but it certainly is not TKD. I am going to make my gripe with it very, very clear:

Playing that tournement game, gaming the game, axe kicks that could be ambiguous crescent kicks, sparring with your hands at your side, and anything else that I probably missed that has to do with the sport side IS NOT A MARTIAL ART! IT IS NOT TKD!

I worked very, very hard to earn my black belt. It took me 5 years to earn my 1st degree, and that was constantly going to practice, going home and practicing, living and breathing TKD. I'm sure your daughter works just as hard for the competition side of it.

But I earned a true black belt in a martial art. I competed in a few tournements, yes, but that wasn't WHY I trained as hard as I did. That isn't the reason that anyone else at our dojang worked as hard as they did, and all the blackbelts that were there before me earned their belt in the same manner. We all practiced the MARTIAL ART, and we earned our blackbelts in the MARTIAL ART.

I do not see how these people who compete in the olympics are considered blackbelts in TKD. They may be blackbelts in competition sparring, but not in traditional TKD.

I also do not see how these people have earned a 3rd or even a 4th degree blackbelt in the time that it took me to earn my 1st degree. Sure, they can point spar alot better than I can, but that's not all there is to TKD.

I suck at point sparring. I'm terrible at it. I like to keep my hands up when I fight, and I also don't bounce up and down so that I can rocket 23 "roundhouse" kicks in a row. Any move that I make while I spar or fight has purpose. I was taught to have no wasted motion. I was also taught that if I'm going to throw a kicking combo, every last one of the kicks that I throw has to have devistating power behind it.

I have been kicked by someone throwing the 23 "roundhouse" kick combo. It was not effective at all. I'm not saying that everyone spars like this in the WTF. But from what I've seen, the tournement goers that I've had experience with were terrible at attempting the MARTIAL ART side of it. Alot of the "gamers" have attempted to spar in the traditional style, where you must keep your hands up, and hands to the head are legal. They failed miserabely. And they were angry about it.

They were angry because they really thought that they were learning TKD, in the sense that they could do what they did at tourney's for SD. I want to make it clear the tourney side of it is NOT SD. But alot of times it gets marketed that way. It should be seperate from TKD. TKD was meant to me a SD MARTIAL ART. Not a "game".

End of rant. Sorry for the lengthy gripe.

 

[mango.man]

Ok, this is what concerns me:

You say that you are not too concerned with the general public's perception of TKD.

How do you expect the ART to grow? If people constantly see the competition side of it all, and that's all they see, what's going to happen to the MARTIAL ART side of it?

It's going to disappear, that's what's going to happen.

Again, you are giving too much credit to publicity that is non-existent for attempting to destroy your precious "art". The sport of TKD gets little to no publicity whatsoever in the mainstream media. When is the last time you saw TKD on TV, outside of a short clip of the Cuban kicking the ref or the medal rounds of the Lopezes a few weeks ago? I have my TIVO configured to automatically record anything with TKD in the title or desciption, and have had for years. I can tell you when the last time TKD was on TV based on that. It was July of 2007 when one of the dozens of obscure sport channels (some college sport channel) did a highlight show of the 07 World Championships that happened a few months earlier. It played at 2:00AM. And if you ask someone today what sport was it where just 3 or 4 weeks ago a Cuban athlete kicked a ref in the head during a temper tantrum in the olympics, I bet you 99 people out of 100 that you ask will either say that they didn't see it or it was karate, kung fu, judo, etc. Maybe 1 guy off the street will say Taekwondo.

What goes on in those tourney's is not TKD. I don't care what you want to call it, but it certainly is not TKD. I am going to make my gripe with it very, very clear:

Playing that tournement game, gaming the game, axe kicks that could be ambiguous crescent kicks, sparring with your hands at your side, and anything else that I probably missed that has to do with the sport side IS NOT A MARTIAL ART! IT IS NOT TKD!

I am way ahead of you there. Please see posts 5, 6 & 7 in the thread titled "Olympic style sparring vs. traditional TKD: why all the fuss??" for my proposed solution. I personally liked post 12 in response as well for suggested names for the sport.

I worked very, very hard to earn my black belt. It took me 5 years to earn my 1st degree, and that was constantly going to practice, going home and practicing, living and breathing TKD. I'm sure your daughter works just as hard for the competition side of it.

But I earned a true black belt in a martial art. I competed in a few tournements, yes, but that wasn't WHY I trained as hard as I did. That isn't the reason that anyone else at our dojang worked as hard as they did, and all the blackbelts that were there before me earned their belt in the same manner. We all practiced the MARTIAL ART, and we earned our blackbelts in the MARTIAL ART.

I do not see how these people who compete in the olympics are considered blackbelts in TKD. They may be blackbelts in competition sparring, but not in traditional TKD.

I also do not see how these people have earned a 3rd or even a 4th degree blackbelt in the time that it took me to earn my 1st degree. Sure, they can point spar alot better than I can, but that's not all there is to TKD.

I think you are being very presumptuous here. In case you have not heard, my daughter spent 8 years in "traditional" TKD before "turning to the dark side". You have no idea what my kid did to earn her 1st poom and 2nd dan black belts during those years. She is eligible to test for 3rd in December. Will she? Not likely as she is not the least bit prepared for such a thing, given that for the past 2 years or so she has not done anything to prepare for testing. You also have no idea what any of the people on the olympic stage did to earn their black belts either. Maybe I am wrong and there was something in your black belt training that gave you super psychic powers. I doubt it though. I also posted in the Chuck Norris thread (post 47) just what the minimum KKW time in rank requirements are. The KKW website I believe also lists the testing requirements. Yes, I am sure some have fudged on their dan applications, but I am confident that most did not. What is possible is that they may have earned their 1st dan through KKW and never gone through KKW again and only earned "in house" 2-9th dans within a year, but that has nothing to do with KKW or WTF etc. As far as those orgs are concerned the person would still be a 1st dan but still be allowed to play on the world stage by virtue of that 1st dan status.

I suck at point sparring. I'm terrible at it. I like to keep my hands up when I fight, and I also don't bounce up and down so that I can rocket 23 "roundhouse" kicks in a row. Any move that I make while I spar or fight has purpose. I was taught to have no wasted motion. I was also taught that if I'm going to throw a kicking combo, every last one of the kicks that I throw has to have devistating power behind it.

I have been kicked by someone throwing the 23 "roundhouse" kick combo. It was not effective at all. I'm not saying that everyone spars like this in the WTF. But from what I've seen, the tournement goers that I've had experience with were terrible at attempting the MARTIAL ART side of it. Alot of the "gamers" have attempted to spar in the traditional style, where you must keep your hands up, and hands to the head are legal. They failed miserabely. And they were angry about it.

They were angry because they really thought that they were learning TKD, in the sense that they could do what they did at tourney's for SD. I want to make it clear the tourney side of it is NOT SD. But alot of times it gets marketed that way. It should be seperate from TKD. TKD was meant to me a SD MARTIAL ART. Not a "game".

End of rant. Sorry for the lengthy gripe.

So you suck at point / olympic sparring and point / olympic sparrers suck at your type of sparring. No real breaking news there. You were out of your element and failed to adapt to their environment and they were out of their's and were unable to adapt to yours. And again I agree that the 2 should be separated, just like you. See you and I are on the same page.

 

[Sylo]

Ok, this is what concerns me:

You say that you are not too concerned with the general public's perception of TKD.

How do you expect the ART to grow? If people constantly see the competition side of it all, and that's all they see, what's going to happen to the MARTIAL ART side of it?

It's going to disappear, that's what's going to happen.

What goes on in those tourney's is not TKD. I don't care what you want to call it, but it certainly is not TKD. I am going to make my gripe with it very, very clear:

Playing that tournement game, gaming the game, axe kicks that could be ambiguous crescent kicks, sparring with your hands at your side, and anything else that I probably missed that has to do with the sport side IS NOT A MARTIAL ART! IT IS NOT TKD!

I worked very, very hard to earn my black belt. It took me 5 years to earn my 1st degree, and that was constantly going to practice, going home and practicing, living and breathing TKD. I'm sure your daughter works just as hard for the competition side of it.

But I earned a true black belt in a martial art. I competed in a few tournements, yes, but that wasn't WHY I trained as hard as I did. That isn't the reason that anyone else at our dojang worked as hard as they did, and all the blackbelts that were there before me earned their belt in the same manner. We all practiced the MARTIAL ART, and we earned our blackbelts in the MARTIAL ART.

I do not see how these people who compete in the olympics are considered blackbelts in TKD. They may be blackbelts in competition sparring, but not in traditional TKD.

I also do not see how these people have earned a 3rd or even a 4th degree blackbelt in the time that it took me to earn my 1st degree. Sure, they can point spar alot better than I can, but that's not all there is to TKD.

I suck at point sparring. I'm terrible at it. I like to keep my hands up when I fight, and I also don't bounce up and down so that I can rocket 23 "roundhouse" kicks in a row. Any move that I make while I spar or fight has purpose. I was taught to have no wasted motion. I was also taught that if I'm going to throw a kicking combo, every last one of the kicks that I throw has to have devistating power behind it.

I have been kicked by someone throwing the 23 "roundhouse" kick combo. It was not effective at all. I'm not saying that everyone spars like this in the WTF. But from what I've seen, the tournement goers that I've had experience with were terrible at attempting the MARTIAL ART side of it. Alot of the "gamers" have attempted to spar in the traditional style, where you must keep your hands up, and hands to the head are legal. They failed miserabely. And they were angry about it.

They were angry because they really thought that they were learning TKD, in the sense that they could do what they did at tourney's for SD. I want to make it clear the tourney side of it is NOT SD. But alot of times it gets marketed that way. It should be seperate from TKD. TKD was meant to me a SD MARTIAL ART. Not a "game".

End of rant. Sorry for the lengthy gripe.

To continue on with some of what Brandon said.

I Have no issues with the "sport" of TKD.
I don't mind there being a sport version of TKD.
What I do mind.. is when practicioners of this "sport" version go around pretending to be a master at the art. When all they've been taught is a streamlined versions, that contains only what wins tournaments. How can someone be a black belt in TKD if they only train in 3 kicks, and the "blitz" punch? Thats where I have the problem. They aren't black belts in anything. They are trained athletes. Give them, a certificate that says "John Doe is certified as a Sport TKD competitor". I don't want the art that I have spent half my life trying to learn, being tainted by people who come in to these schools to learn .5% and be given the same rank and respect I have.

I'm only high rank blue belt. I have been studying the art for over 3 years, and I haven't even made it to 1st dan yet. I study the forms, the philosophy behind the forms, and the history behind them. I study the moves, and I learn their application as it pertains to what TKD was founded on.. "combat". Then I turn around and see 2nd and 3rd dan folks, who couldn't do a form to save their life, who couldn't tell you anything about anything other than how to score in a point sparring match. I DO NOT want to be lumped with them.

But, because those people don't care how TKD is perceived (why should they? they aren't studying TKD anyway right?) When someone comes up and says "Oh, hey your daughter is really good.. what rank is she".. you'll be just as quick to say "Oh yeah, she's <insert dan rank> black belt in WTF TKD". When unless someone can prove to me that these "athletes" have been brought up from white ---> black in a traditional martial art. They are not in the same league as those of us who have. "BLACK BELT" is supposed to mean something. Its supposed to represent the fact that this person has mastered every technique within the art of Tae Kwon Do. They can perform every form to the best of their ability, and they have completely dedicated themselves to mastering it.

ALL Black belts are not created equal. Anyone attending a sport karate school in my eyes.. should not have rank at all. If thats the case. I should hold back belts in Kenpo, Kali, and Arnis.. since hey, I've learned a couple of "moves" from each of them.

You haven't mastered your art when you only know 3-4 kicks.

Hopefully my 10 month old son will be interested in martial arts. If he comes up to me and says "Dad, I want to be an olympic TKD champion". I'll say "Awesome Son!, now lets get you enrolled in a school so you can learn TKD first". I want my son to know where TKD came from, and to remember his roots. If he wins, it will be because he has mastered his art.

Bottom line.

All we want is seperation.

We do not want to be lumped in with the people who don't study the art. Its apples and oranges. The bad publicity from the olympics and people going around saying "I'm a black belt in 3 kicks" is killing our art. An art we've worked hard to train in, and we don't want to see it basterdized into the level of table tennis.


----- for the record. I read where you said that your daughter has been training in traditional TKD for 8 years? Thats awesome. Thats basically all my points were trying to make. I don't like seeing people come in, and say "I want to be a point fighter" without learning the art first. Its the same reason I don't like alot of the MMA fighters who have no martial arts background at all. So I think we may finally be in agreeance on this topic!-----

 

[BrandonLucas]

You and I are on the same page as far as the fact that what your daughter competes in is not TKD.

If she trained in traditional style before going to "the dark side", as you put it, then great, I applaud her for doing that, and at least she has the experience of knowing what she's using before she competes in the "slap fests" that I see going on in the Olympics.

Where we aren't seeing eye-to-eye, here, is the fact that people who join TKD to only compete in tournements of this nature are giving the rest of TKD a very, very bad name. Go over to ************** and post on thier forums for a few minutes, and you'll see what I'm talking about.

I have to defend myself on other forums constantly because of the tourney crap that is associated with TKD. People, other martial artists, consider the art a joke now. THAT is what makes me angry.

If someone were to go to a dojang that only taught the olympic style of TKD, and earned a blackbelt through that system, as far as I'm concerned, they are no blackbelt at all. In fact, the dojangs that promote that style of TKD are the McDojo's you hear about all the time...belt factories.

Why do they all come from TKD? Because there is so much policital crap that comes from the martial art.

So, I'm glad that your daughter actually has real martial arts training. I'm glad that she got that BEFORE competing in these tourney's. But what about the people who race through the system and grab a black belt simply so they can compete?

And, while we're at it, who the HELL gives a blackbelt to a guy like the cuban in the Olympics???? If you had to EARN the belt around your waist, then you don't react like a child when you don't agree with a call. He is a prime example of someone who came from a beltfactory school just so he could compete and show the world how fast his "axe" kick is.

And, FYI, all of my friends know about the cuban kicking the ref in the Olympics, and they all know he was TKD. Kind of hard to miss with Tae Kwon Do banners all over the place, a write up in USA Today, and articles on MSN.

Yeah, no one pays attention to THAT kind of thing.

 

[Sylo]

You and I are on the same page as far as the fact that what your daughter competes in is not TKD.

If she trained in traditional style before going to "the dark side", as you put it, then great, I applaud her for doing that, and at least she has the experience of knowing what she's using before she competes in the "slap fests" that I see going on in the Olympics.

Where we aren't seeing eye-to-eye, here, is the fact that people who join TKD to only compete in tournements of this nature are giving the rest of TKD a very, very bad name. Go over to ************** and post on thier forums for a few minutes, and you'll see what I'm talking about.

I have to defend myself on other forums constantly because of the tourney crap that is associated with TKD. People, other martial artists, consider the art a joke now. THAT is what makes me angry.

If someone were to go to a dojang that only taught the olympic style of TKD, and earned a blackbelt through that system, as far as I'm concerned, they are no blackbelt at all. In fact, the dojangs that promote that style of TKD are the McDojo's you hear about all the time...belt factories.

Why do they all come from TKD? Because there is so much policital crap that comes from the martial art.

So, I'm glad that your daughter actually has real martial arts training. I'm glad that she got that BEFORE competing in these tourney's. But what about the people who race through the system and grab a black belt simply so they can compete?

And, while we're at it, who the HELL gives a blackbelt to a guy like the cuban in the Olympics???? If you had to EARN the belt around your waist, then you don't react like a child when you don't agree with a call. He is a prime example of someone who came from a beltfactory school just so he could compete and show the world how fast his "axe" kick is.

And, FYI, all of my friends know about the cuban kicking the ref in the Olympics, and they all know he was TKD. Kind of hard to miss with Tae Kwon Do banners all over the place, a write up in USA Today, and articles on MSN.

Yeah, no one pays attention to THAT kind of thing.

On that note.

One thing I would like to mention about the Olympic incident that really hit home with me.

One of the biggest draws to training in TKD is discipline and self control, right?

So you'd think someone that is a master of his art, and has spent the majority of his life training in.. would have enough discipline and self control to not let a bad call get the best of him.

He let the "sport" get to his head. And, the fact that he lost his cool.. just shows how little TKD training he has. Being a world champion in the Olympics doesn't make you a master martial artist. So I just wish they would stop trying to pretend like they are.

Apparently his school doesn't teach them to be humble and disciplined. Your supposed to avoid fights, not start them.