WTF TKD sparring hands down?

[zDom]

I guess it depends, then, on one's defintion of "good MA/bad MA."

Being a hapkido-ist (we always look at things in relation to combat/self-defense), I define "good martial arts" as stuff that helps me come out on top in combat/self-defense and "bad martial arts" as stuff that is likely to get me hurt.

In light of this, "adapting" to a GAME as a part of daily training could foster bad habits.

We do play games — judo, ITF/Point-style TKD-karate/Olympic style — on the side at times, but I always try to play them in a way that to me keeps a "if this were a fight" type of mindset.

For example, I am not going to "turtle up" in a judo match if I can help it as this would be a bad place to be in combat. I don't turn my back in point style karate matches to hide my target area because this would expose my kindeys and spine.

And I think someone with YOUR mindset isn't going to be that bad off, bluekey: after all, you list several type of fighting games/training methods you participate in, each working different situations.

Bringing this around full circle back to the thread topic, what I seem to be seeing in Olympic style TKD is people who are intentionally gaming the game, finding loopholes, exploiting the rules just to win — all training is targeting Olympic competition.

From what I understand, this isn't what Korean GMs had in mind for this sport, and are displeased with the result. Word has it they are ready to see TKD pulled from the Olympics.

The intention was a game for martial artists who practice TKD to play to promote TKD. What we got was people gaming the game and training something that has become something else entirely.

For example, punching to the head was made against the rules to encourage kicks. What we GOT was a sport in which even punches with trembling shock –*which SHOULD be getting points — aren't getting points. So competitors stop punching.

The sad thing is, we could modify the rules some more to try to get the result those who love TKD are looking for, but it will end up the same: people exploiting the rules to try to win at all costs, training for the game instead of training for quality TKD and playing the game.

(Good discussion, btw: I don't mind a good argument. Devils Advocates make for good discussions. )

 

[bluekey88]

I guess it depends, then, on one's defintion of "good MA/bad MA."

Being a hapkido-ist (we always look at things in relation to combat/self-defense), I define "good martial arts" as stuff that helps me come out on top in combat/self-defense and "bad martial arts" as stuff that is likely to get me hurt.

I think we both agree on this point. I was essnetially saying the same thing, though perhaps I was using a broader context. Whatever gets you throughas situation is good MA in my book. However, for that to happen one must be able to be aware that there is a situation, wise enogh/educated enough to assess the situation anmd choose the right tools for the job, and finally skilled enough to use the tools successfully.

In light of this, "adapting" to a GAME as a part of daily training could foster bad habits.

No doubt. I assume that a decent school makes this part of th4e curriculum. When i'm couaching our comp team kids, I advocate a low gaurd as that will lead to greater success...especially for thre higher ranked youth. The lower ranked young'uns are better off with a middle to high gaurd.

However when I've get them in class and they get lazy and drop their hands i call them on it. I strive NOT to let that be a habit by reinforcing the fact that they need to use the right skillsets for the right job. I imagine other schools do the same.

Bringing this around full circle back to the thread topic, what I seem to be seeing in Olympic style TKD is people who are intentionally gaming the game, finding loopholes, exploiting the rules just to win — all training is targeting Olympic competition.

From what I understand, this isn't what Korean GMs had in mind for this sport, and are displeased with the result. Word has it they are ready to see TKD pulled from the Olympics.

The intention was a game for martial artists who practice TKD to play to promote TKD. What we got was people gaming the game and training something that has become something else entirely.

For example, punching to the head was made against the rules to encourage kicks. What we GOT was a sport in which even punches with trembling shock –*which SHOULD be getting points — aren't getting points. So competitors stop punching.

The sad thing is, we could modify the rules some more to try to get the result those who love TKD are looking for, but it will end up the same: people exploiting the rules to try to win at all costs, training for the game instead of training for quality TKD and playing the game.

(Good discussion, btw: I don't mind a good argument. Devils Advocates make for good discussions. )

But as you point out, most (if not all) competitve sports have this idea of gaming the game as an element. Wrestling, boxing, judo...it's there, you mentioned some of it in your examples. I have no problem with that as long as the playing field is level (which, unfortunately is not the case in TKD...the real problem being with our scoring system, officating and how the rules are interpreted). However, the pursuit of the game is not inherently a bad thing IMO and does not necessarily lead to poor martial artists 9quite the opposite in my expereince).

Sparring/competition is one tiny part of an art that includes hoshinsul, breaking, poomse, and physical conditioning. It's just that the competition piece gets the inordinate amount of attention from outsiders.

Peace,
Erik

 

[Sylo]

I've always questioned this practice myself.

As an ITF practicioner, I have always been taught to keep my hands up. Seems logical right? You don't see boxers running around with no hands up do you?

I understand the logic in point karate, and how leaving your hands down.. apparently makes one faster. Since the idea behind point fighting is to hit the other one before he hits you. Being fast, is crucial to success. However because of the "motives" behind the competition. The very essence of what you learn when you study a martial art becomes flawed.

If you watch the vids on youtube. You'll see most of the competitors (at least in the big NASKA and national circuits) bouncing around with hands down. They'll throw random wild moves at each other, until one of them lands. Its like playing "tag". you don't see much blocking. Only wild punches and kicks. When they "think" they land. They jump back and raise their hands up in the air. Basically the entire idea of "combat" and defending oneself is completely non existent. If you look at it as nothing more than a "sporting event" like baseball or soccer. It makes perfect sense why they do what they do. Because in all sports, there are "shortcuts" that people take to get ahead.

If the rules of the "game" were changed so that it was more based on a "Defend yourself" scenario. You'd see people getting those hands up. The competitors in this sport however, know that most points are scored to the body and not the face. They'd rather take the risk of getting hit in the face, than in the stomach since the odds are lower.

I like continuous sparring because of this, since its more "real" to how a fight might take place. Stop point fighters are just out there to make contact as fast as possible, by any means necessary. I can safely say that there'd be plenty of bloody noses if I were to enter one of those tournaments and a bright multi colored uniform came flying at me with his hands down.

 

[mango.man]

If you watch the vids on youtube. You'll see most of the competitors (at least in the big NASKA and national circuits) bouncing around with hands down. They'll throw random wild moves at each other, until one of them lands. Its like playing "tag". you don't see much blocking. Only wild punches and kicks. When they "think" they land. They jump back and raise their hands up in the air. Basically the entire idea of "combat" and defending oneself is completely non existent. If you look at it as nothing more than a "sporting event" like baseball or soccer.

With an acronym like NASKA (North American Sport Karate Association), you expected something other than a "sporting event"?

Just like Olympic TKD, you watch and you expect something other than an Olympic sport?

 

[Sylo]

With an acronym like NASKA (North American Sport Karate Association), you expected something other than a "sporting event"?

Just like Olympic TKD, you watch and you expect something other than an Olympic sport?

Nope. your absolutely right. Thats exactly what I'd expect. Doesn't mean I agree with it. But I understand its purpose. Its no different than winning a gold medal in curling. They adjusted the rules so that they can levelize it. Which I also understand completely. I still don't get why the rules couldn't have been catered around the the purpose of TKD, which is to defend oneself. I guess they are, if you really think about.. But as is with human nature. Humans will always find a way to min/max. If they know they don't have to defend themselves to score a "point".. they won't. Its just a system that has been uncovered over time. For this "scenario" no hands up.. is more effective.

 

[BrandonLucas]

Sylo and I train at the same dojang, under the same instructor. We both come from traditional ITF roots. Both of us pretty much see the same thing on this.

The thing that I would like to add to the discussion is that I don't believe that it is more of a problem with the actual competitors themselves, but, more of a problem with the rules of the "game".

If you are told that you are not going to score a point with a punch, no matter how much it rocks your opponent, then why throw a punch? And if you train exclusively for the "game", then why should you train on how to punch?

I think the fault lies with the judges on how things are scored in the sport aspect. I think that the points should be awarded for any legal solid hit, not just a tap.

Also, I have the biggest problem with the tournements that have the point sparring system in which you only have to tap the opponent first to score the point...this is different from the olympic ruleset. I actually saw a video on youtube, and I can't remember the link or I would post it, of this blackbelt who came up with his own sparring move, called a 3 point blitz, in which he gets into a 3 point football stance, and then as the ref says "fight", he lunges from the crouched position and blitzes his opponent with the crappiest set of backfists I have ever seen.

This is what I have the problem with. You should not be scored on points like this. If the point is a valid hit, then yes, but not these stupid love taps. TKD is not about who's faster at hitting the other guy first with bad moves, it's about how to protect yourself by using the power of the moves that are taught.

To me, if you spar with your hands down, you're not sparring. You're not practicing true TKD. You're not even practicing a legit martial art. It should be labled as what it is: a game. It is not WTF TKD, ITF TKD, ATA TKD, or any other branch of TKD. It's tag. Tag with people wearing doboks.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not making light of what the game is at all. I don't agree with it, but then, I don't have to. But it's certainly not any kind of martial art under the definition of the word, and I don't believe it's fair to those of us who train as hard as we do to be regarded as "gamers" simply because we happen to train in the same artform.

And, as a side note, I know I've had this discussion with Sylo previously, but when I found out that TKD was going to be in the Olympics for the first time, I envisioned the tournement to be something out of the movie "Best of the Best". To me, that is how the tournement should look. I mean, watch the Judo competitions in the Olympics. There is no difference from the way the martial art is trained traditionally and the way that the Olympic judges score the matches.

Why can't TKD be the same?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Brandon, this is the same thing that happened in fencing.

It used to be that to score, you had to either make a successful thrust (foil and epee) or a successful thrust or cut (sabre) to a valid target area. With the advent of electric scoring and ever more flexible blades (no real duelist would have ever used a sword with such a light, flexible blade), moves like "the flick" became popular. The flick is where the blade is whipped and points can be scored by literally touching your opponent in the back by whipping the blade in such a way that it wraps around from the side to make a strike. You don't even feel the touch; you only know because the scoring lights light and the buzzer sounds.

The flick is a move that games the game. All sorts of other athletic contortions are done to score points that would not only not hurt an opponent is a real duel, but would leave the attacker open in such a way that the opponent would easilly finish them off (in strip fencing, once a point is scored, the action stops). Such a move, again, games the game. There is even a mentality that if you're ahead, if you score and your opponent scores simultaneously, then that is okay. Certainly, in a real duel, such a mentality would be considered highly foolish. Some rules also exist that affect timing and such in order to make the sport more viewer friendly.

Just like Olympic taekwondo, I have the highest respect for the athleticism of modern fencers and am saddened that I missed being able to watch the fencing as it happened. I am aware that Olympic fencing is a sport and I am okay with that. I have my little peeves, which I mentioned above, but overall, I enjoy and respect modern sport fencing.

One difference between sport fencing and sport taekwondo is that a sport fencer has all of the tools necesary to actually fight a duel. Techniques are not restricted in weird or artificial ways (if one understands the history of the weapons, the target areas make sense).

On the other hand, doing exclucively sport taekwondo will not provide you with all of the tools that one needs to defend themselves, though I do believe that a straight sport taekwondo player has a huge advantage in a fight over an untrained individual.

Ultimately, I believe that both sports suffer due to the lure of sponsorship dollars and the attempts to gain them by making the sports friendly to a television audience that has neither the understanding nor the interest to be able to follow them, regardless of how viewer friendly it is made to be.

Daniel

 

[BrandonLucas]

I don't think I could agree more with your post.

It's a very hard thing to not feel animosity toward the gamers for the way things have turned out. But, after thinking about it, I've realized that it's not them, it's the politics involved that turn things sour.

I read someone's post before that if TKD was taken out of the Olympics, then the mentality would start changing. I agree with that. I think that if you take away the reason for the governing bodies to create absurd sparring rules, then the mentality of the gamers will change.

But, what if the ruleset changed, and the "tapping" was no longer considered scoring? That would leave alot of these gamers in a bad position, and it's not fair to them, because they have been training this whole time to fit the ruleset of the game thus far. They are being put at a disadvantage because of the rules of the game.

I do agree that they would be better off than an untrained fighter, but then so would a football player. It's all about conditioning on that level, not technique and fighting skill.

Again, I'm not taking away anything from the people who play the points game, because I would certainly lose if I were to enter the competition.

I guess it all comes down to what you're after in this whole thing: are you wanting a SD martial art, or are you wanting to win trophies?

The gripe that I have with it is that the trophie side of things is still being marketed as a "martial art", which it is not. Art, maybe, but not martial.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

To a certain extent, I think that the system gamers are a necessity. When rules are made to regulate competition and players game the system regularly, that is the indication that the rules need to evolve. If nobody gamed the system, then the deficiencies in the system would never be addressed.

The problem is, as you pointed out, in the judging and scoring methods, not the gamers. The biggest problem is that, it seems to me, organizations tend to not want to change their rules, and so they praise those who game the system as superior athletes who have 'advanced the sport' by changing the way that it is played.

This is very different from the evolution of martial arts, which is driven by the effectiveness of techniques and evolves as practitioners of an art encounters opponents with differing styles and need to develope techniques to counter them.

Unlike sport fencing, in which a good sport fencer would also be a very good duelist, quirky scoring aside, sport taekwondo (exclusively) cannot develope an actual fighter. And also unlike fencing, where the ability to win a sword duel is obsolete, there is still, perhaps now more than ever, a huge need for regular people to be able to defend themselves with their hands and feet.

And that is why we in the martial arts community point out the lack of 'martial' in martial sports: fencing is no longer relevant. Unarmed defense is still very, very relevant and needed in modern society.

Daniel

 

[kaizasosei]

i would not think hightly of an average fighter with his hands down. i would also scold myself for letting my guard(arms) down completly in a given situation.
however, i have heard of extreme korean arts that use 'only feet' techniques. that means they don't use hands at all.
mind you, it is possible to block just about anything with the soles of feet, shins,,etc. if you are flexible and skillfull enough

j

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Most arts that are feet only were developed for some artificial reason. In other words hand techniques were either unusable or the intent was specifically to focus on the kicking techniques.

Taewondo doesn't have a background like Capoiera, where it was developed by slaves who's hands were frequently tied, nor does it have a background of taekyon (whatever taekyon's background, taekwondo's is not the same).

While a kicking only art certainly has value and legitamacy, just as learning to shoot pistols only does as well, taekwondo was not developed as a kicking only art, and in an SD application, unless you're armless, restricting some of your most valueable defense tools borders on suicide.

Daniel

 

[Sylo]

Most arts that are feet only were developed for some artificial reason. In other words hand techniques were either unusable or the intent was specifically to focus on the kicking techniques.

Taewondo doesn't have a background like Capoiera, where it was developed by slaves who's hands were frequently tied, nor does it have a background of taekyon (whatever taekyon's background, taekwondo's is not the same).

While a kicking only art certainly has value and legitamacy, just as learning to shoot pistols only does as well, taekwondo was not developed as a kicking only art, and in an SD application, unless you're armless, restricting some of your most valueable defense tools borders on suicide.

Daniel

makes you wonder if any ITF fighters have ever entered a WTF style tournament. From some of the vids I've seen. I'd wipe the floor with them.

round house to the head!

axe kick to the head!

backfist to the head!

spin hook kick to the head!

I can see it now!

 

[Shaolin Bushido]

I just think it's dumb. Spawns bad habits that will get you KO'ed in a self defense situation.

WTF= "What the F___?" That's precisely what I read when I see WTF and Taekwondo together. Perhaps that will change if they ever reconcile with the martial side of Tae Kwon Do.

No offense to anyone; it's just me thinkin in print. I'm sure some of you understand what I'm trying to say.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

makes you wonder if any ITF fighters have ever entered a WTF style tournament. From some of the vids I've seen. I'd wipe the floor with them.

round house to the head!

axe kick to the head!

backfist to the head!

spin hook kick to the head!

I can see it now!

Hmm, I don't know.

Our dojang trains fairly traditionally, but as a WTF school, we spar that style. I'm disinclined to think that I could go in and mop up in another sparring style just because of my own foundations. Anytime an athlete or martial artist goes from one set of rules into another which with they are either unfamiliar and/or unpracticed, they nearly always have a learning curve before they start mopping up.

Top USFL players who transitioned to the NFL had difficulty adapting. A couple of years ago, an LPGA golfer competed in the PGA. She was able to drive as good as any of the gents, but had trouble simply because the men were much more focused on their putting game; and hers wasn't exactly bad. And this was in the same game with the same rules.

Expectations that being ITF would enable you to mop up at WTF tourney are not well founded: no punches to the head are allowed, so one of the attacks you listed would be unavailable to you. Not only that, it is difficult to score with a fist when striking the torso where punches are allowed. And don't you think that WTF competitors roundhouse, axe, and spinning hook kicks are probably pretty well developed?

Daniel

Edit: to address your first question, I'm sure that some ITF practitioners have transitioned to WTF and done well, but when people transition to a different style with the intent of sparring in that style, they generally train and prepare very dilligently in order to be able to do so, and generally show well but don't start really mopping up until they've been in the new style for a bit.

 

[BrandonLucas]

The sad thing is that it is basically an apples/oranges discussion at the competition point. I could not go in and compete using WTF rules and expect to beat the top ranked WTF fighter.

By the same token, any WTF fighter that would attempt to enter into an ITF style sparring match would fair the same.

And that's the point of this, to me. WTF style sparring should not still be considered a legit martial art. It's a game. Nothing more.

In ITF, we spar and have some rules and regulations, but it's much more combat-oriented than the WTF style of sparring. The two ways of sparring are so vastly different because the WTF style is in no way, shape, form, or fashion "martial". That is the biggest disadvantage as far as I can see.

I think that it should be seperated from traditional TKD because there are still schools out there that profess that the WTF tournement style is the actual way the martial art is practiced. If someone were to come in off the street not knowing anything about the martial arts at all and attempt to learn this as a form of self defense, then it would not work.

I don't have a problem with anyone who goes into the tournement style of sparring with the understanding that it's nothing more than a game with a set of rules. It's when the game is marketed as a SD art that I have a problem with it. Football does not teach people how to competently defend themselves during a fight, and it does not claim to. It's a game. Same thing applies here.

 

[mango.man]

makes you wonder if any ITF fighters have ever entered a WTF style tournament. From some of the vids I've seen. I'd wipe the floor with them.

round house to the head!

axe kick to the head!

backfist to the head!

spin hook kick to the head!

I can see it now!

LOL. As far as I know there is nothing that stops you from registering for any open tourney out there. Just remember to play by the rules (IE, No backfist to the head) and don't forget to videotape and post the results on Youtube, win or lose I am sure we would all love to see it.

Definitely go with the axe kick though as that seems quite effective especially if you chamber your axe kick to "disguise" it:

Back (Left) Leg Axe Kick -

Front (Right) Leg Skip Axe Kick -

 

[BrandonLucas]

I'm just curious here, but doesn't it bother you that if either one of the people getting kicked in the head had bothered to even attempt to block, the point wouldn't have scored? Or, at the very least, a possible concussion could have been avoided?

I understand that it's supposed to make you faster, but I really don't see the application of speed in those videos.

Those kicks were sharp, though.

 

[Sylo]

LOL. As far as I know there is nothing that stops you from registering for any open tourney out there. Just remember to play by the rules (IE, No backfist to the head) and don't forget to videotape and post the results on Youtube, win or lose I am sure we would all love to see it.

Definitely go with the axe kick though as that seems quite effective especially if you chamber your axe kick to "disguise" it:

Back (Left) Leg Axe Kick -

Front (Right) Leg Skip Axe Kick -

I probably could enter. But, at the same time... as brandon pointed out. I'd have to follow the "tag" rules. I don't spar like that. Does WTF even allow hands to the head? I can't do a "axe kick" and hope it lands.. so we can "stop" and try again. I like to run combos and outsmart my opponent by being more skilled at it than they are. All this tappity tap style of sparring does is makes you better at whack a mole.

 

[mango.man]

I probably could enter. But, at the same time... as brandon pointed out. I'd have to follow the "tag" rules. I don't spar like that. Does WTF even allow hands to the head? I can't do a "axe kick" and hope it lands.. so we can "stop" and try again. I like to run combos and outsmart my opponent by being more skilled at it than they are. All this tappity tap style of sparring does is makes you better at whack a mole.

WTF does not allow hands to the head, so you would have to remove that tool from your arsenal.

However, WTF (more specifically Olympic style) sparring is continuous, not point / stop. So if you miss with your axe kick, be prepared to have a follow up kick.

Feel free also to run all the combos you can. Remember that the first person to 12 or to establish a 7 point gap, is the winner so if you can bust out a few combos and rack up points fast, all the better for you.

Also feel free to not play tappity tap and hit your opponent as hard and fast as you can.

So if the "no hands to the head" rule is all that is stopping you, I think you should reconsider and give it a go at a tourney or 2.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I probably could enter. But, at the same time... as brandon pointed out. I'd have to follow the "tag" rules. I don't spar like that. Does WTF even allow hands to the head? I can't do a "axe kick" and hope it lands.. so we can "stop" and try again. I like to run combos and outsmart my opponent by being more skilled at it than they are. All this tappity tap style of sparring does is makes you better at whack a mole.

Actually, according to the rules, each blow is supposed to deliver a 'trembling shock,' while light tapping blows are not supposed to be counted. I spar regularly and block kicks regularly and I can tell you, with serious competitors, those aint no taps. In fact, GM Kim won't count points that are just taps, though I'm sure that there are judges who do. Good WTF competitors also run combos and use strategy to outsmart their opponents.

While WTF sparring has its flaws, being tappity tap is not one of them. Some of those kicks may not look like that much more than a tap, but considering that the competitors are wearing hogu and train to take hits, I'd guarantee that they aren't just taps.

Daniel