WTF TKD sparring hands down?

[slingblade01]

Ah, intelligent discourse!

Anyhow, I disagree about the competition and the traditional being separated. I know that I'm probably the odd one out on that, but I feel that the sport competition is extremely useful for developing kicks, probably the single most effective tool for developing effective kicks in real time. While I feel that the woes of one affect the other, the reverse is also true; tradition and sport can enhance eachother.

I would have agreed with you about 10 years ago.
However, the more I learn, the more I revise my opinions.

First point, if we look at a successful model to guide us, look at our academic structure. Some individuals don't go to college. Some go to tech schools while others go on to college. Let's focus on college. The first two years, you obtain a well rounded education - core classes. The next two years, you focus on your field of study - your major, and that is usually fairly specific. If you choose to continue a post-grad education, then you may specialize even further.
So you can see, based on this simplified academic model, a chemical engineering student concentrates on his specialization after two years of a well rounded education. He's not bogged down with english, poli-sci, history, etc. This is how we build professionals in industries. This model is centuries old and global accepted. Without this model, we would not have professionals and high achievement/ advancements in industry.

Second point, how much time do you think it takes to become a world/olympic champion? How long do you think the journey takes?
Hint - they are professionals in their industry.
Let me appproach this from adifferent angle. Many of you may know or are training under Grandmaster so-and-so who was a former world champion. Some of you may be shocked to learn that once they aquired their black and were able to make the elementary/ middle school team, they were done with poomse, one steps, kyuk-pa, whatever. All they did was train for tournaments. This is the model currently, and sinces the 70s, used today in Korea. Prior to then, in the old kwan days, some athletes did do a limited amount of poomse to keep up appearances. Now another question, did G.M. so-and-so turn out so bad? Is he a bad instructor/ person?

I do feel that sport only schools should dispense with belts and that tournaments should be like fencing, with a-e and u ratings (a being the top competitors and e being the lowest rating, while u simply means unrated). Ratings in fencing go up and down depending on competition record and competition frequency (if you're undefeated for five years and then don't compete for two after that, you aren't 'a' rated anymore).

I completely agree!
Gymnastics uses a similar method. I seriously wish this would happen but I honesty don't think it will in this country, nor will Korea allow it to happen.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Ah, intelligent discourse!

Thanks! And likewise.

I would have agreed with you about 10 years ago.
However, the more I learn, the more I revise my opinions.

Yes, but it would take less effort to get the two in sync than it would to completely divorce them, which I think would ultimately be a huge blow to the sport (my opinion). The mechanism is already there for having a bit more 'tradition' (for lack of a better word) with belt testings and an existing KKW curriculum that is more comprehensive than just the sport aspect. And things haven't gotten nearly so different since 98. Trying to take TKD back to 1970 would be impossible, but trying to tighten it up and improve the overall art, sport and SD together, is still within reach.

First point, if we look at a successful model to guide us, look at our academic structure. Some individuals don't go to college. Some go to tech schools while others go on to college. Let's focus on college. The first two years, you obtain a well rounded education - core classes. The next two years, you focus on your field of study - your major, and that is usually fairly specific. If you choose to continue a post-grad education, then you may specialize even further.
So you can see, based on this simplified academic model, a chemical engineering student concentrates on his specialization after two years of a well rounded education. He's not bogged down with english, poli-sci, history, etc. This is how we build professionals in industries. This model is centuries old and global accepted. Without this model, we would not have professionals and high achievement/ advancements in industry.

Second point, how much time do you think it takes to become a world/olympic champion? How long do you think the journey takes?
Hint - they are professionals in their industry.
Let me appproach this from adifferent angle. Many of you may know or are training under Grandmaster so-and-so who was a former world champion. Some of you may be shocked to learn that once they aquired their black and were able to make the elementary/ middle school team, they were done with poomse, one steps, kyuk-pa, whatever. All they did was train for tournaments. This is the model currently, and sinces the 70s, used today in Korea. Prior to then, in the old kwan days, some athletes did do a limited amount of poomse to keep up appearances. Now another question, did G.M. so-and-so turn out so bad? Is he a bad instructor/ person?

I am very fortunate; my GM is the 1992 Korean national champion, but he teaches a strong traditional base and his classes have a big focus on poomsae. In fact, our tests have comparatively little sparring as compared with the rest of what we are tested on. Consequently, our tournament and competition junkies are still very well rounded fighter. Of course he was also a hapkido instructor in the ROK special army, so we get a pretty solid SD curriculum. He enforces the same etiquette that our kendo students must display in tournament on taekwondo students. Just to make this touch a little on the topic, we are not taught to spar with our hands at our waist, though we don't hold them as high as a boxer.

Like I said, I've been fortunate, but what you observe is, sadly, more the norm than not.

I completely agree!
Gymnastics uses a similar method. I seriously wish this would happen but I honesty don't think it will in this country, nor will Korea allow it to happen.

You're right on the money there; too much money in belt testings and too little incentive to suburbanite moms and dads who intend for little Johny and Suzy to have blackbelts in a year and a half to two years.

Daniel

 

[Sylo]

Hey.

If people want to win tournaments thats great.

as long as their black belt has "Sport TKD expert" on it, and not "TKD master" on it.. I'm more than thrilled.

You can't go to medical school, dissect a few frogs very well, and call yourself a doctor.

I think the same applies.

 

[mango.man]

Hey.

If people want to win tournaments thats great.

as long as their black belt has "Sport TKD expert" on it, and not "TKD master" on it.. I'm more than thrilled.

You can't go to medical school, dissect a few frogs very well, and call yourself a doctor.

I think the same applies.

I am sure I can find a school somewhere that offers a PhD in disection. And then I could call myself a Doctor.

 

[terryl965]

Hey.

If people want to win tournaments thats great.

as long as their black belt has "Sport TKD expert" on it, and not "TKD master" on it.. I'm more than thrilled.

You can't go to medical school, dissect a few frogs very well, and call yourself a doctor.

I think the same applies.

Sylo I have to say without adoubt that is the most riduculas thing I heard. But each there own. Does your Black Belt say Master of Tae Kwon Do or are you just making blanket statements? I mean you are so against anything to do with sports or tournament type of sparring, did you get beat by one of these types of players? :rofl: I guess we all have our reason to not like the sport aspect as well as like it, what I find funny is sports in the US is the biggest money maker than any other business, little league, volleybal, football, basketball and a few more. I guess there is no room for the sport in Martial Arts, wait do we not have the Ultimate fighter and shows like that damm the all, bring out the cannons and get rid of everybody.:asian:

 

[Sylo]

Sylo I have to say without adoubt that is the most riduculas thing I heard. But each there own. Does your Black Belt say Master of Tae Kwon Do or are you just making blanket statements? I mean you are so against anything to do with sports or tournament type of sparring, did you get beat by one of these types of players? :rofl: I guess we all have our reason to not like the sport aspect as well as like it, what I find funny is sports in the US is the biggest money maker than any other business, little league, volleybal, football, basketball and a few more. I guess there is no room for the sport in Martial Arts, wait do we not have the Ultimate fighter and shows like that damm the all, bring out the cannons and get rid of everybody.:asian:

I'm not trying to make enemies here. We all have opinions. Mine are not wrong, and neither are yours. Yeah I kind of have this pent up aggression against sports. Why? Because I live in redneckville where the world revolves around football and basketball. Noone cares if you have an education, just as long as you can do either of those 2 things very well. Our entire city shuts down during football season. So yeah I kind of have an animosity towards sports..

However, that animosity has nothing to do with my comments on this subject. You guys are either missing my point all together, or just wanting have a reason to discredit anything I say.

So let me try to clear this up one more time.

1. I do not dislike sport karate. I do not dislike people who partake in sport karate. I think that it has its place.

2. I have competed, and will compete again at some point. I will train the way my instructor has me train, and I will train on my own. I will follow the rules as they are set, regardless of whether I agree with them and I will see how far my training takes me. I'll win some and lose some.

3. I agree that having traditional and sport training mixed together, can be a valuable tool. I do not believe one should train soley for the sport part without first having learned the core. You can't learn algebra without learning basic math first. If I ask you what a poomse, tae guk, or chang hon pattern is.. you should be able to answer my question without hesitation.

4. I disagree in someone walking in off the street, coming into a school and saying "teach me how to win tournaments, I don't care about the other stuff". I disagree with them holding, rank unless it partains to the sport aspect of it only. Such as what was already mentioned, similar to fencing.


Basically I want to see people learning martial for the SD and art part of it first, sport as an extracurriculur activity. Thats just what I am used to. There are unfortunately, no right or wrong answers here.. only opinions.

I mean no offense to anyone who chooses to skip the tradition, and go straight to scoring points at tournaments. If thats how you choose to train, then all I can do is disagree with you and move on. Noone every agrees with everyone about everything. If we did, we'd be a dull bunch.

 

[bluekey88]

4. I disagree in someone walking in off the street, coming into a school and saying "teach me how to win tournaments, I don't care about the other stuff". I disagree with them holding, rank unless it partains to the sport aspect of it only. Such as what was already mentioned, similar to fencing.


Basically I want to see people learning martial for the SD and art part of it first, sport as an extracurriculur activity. Thats just what I am used to. There are unfortunately, no right or wrong answers here.. only opinions.

I mean no offense to anyone who chooses to skip the tradition, and go straight to scoring points at tournaments. If thats how you choose to train, then all I can do is disagree with you and move on. Noone every agrees with everyone about everything. If we did, we'd be a dull bunch.

I guess in my 20 some odd years studying 5 different arts...I've never seen this. I've never seen a place where oyu can walk in off teh street and ONLY study competition sparring. I know there are TKD schools that focus on the sports competition stuff...but typically you don't walk in there as a rank beginner. Nope, they scout the tourneys for prospects and let more traditional schools instill strong basics.

I guess what I'm saying that the folks at the top of the tkd competition heap are not as one dimensional as you and others amke them out ot be. I've had the pleasure o fmeeting some of them, training with a few...they are good marial artists who have made a decision to pursue a particular path. They deserve respect and not derision.

Peace,
Erik

 

[Sylo]

I guess in my 20 some odd years studying 5 different arts...I've never seen this. I've never seen a place where oyu can walk in off teh street and ONLY study competition sparring. I know there are TKD schools that focus on the sports competition stuff...but typically you don't walk in there as a rank beginner. Nope, they scout the tourneys for prospects and let more traditional schools instill strong basics.

I guess what I'm saying that the folks at the top of the tkd competition heap are not as one dimensional as you and others amke them out ot be. I've had the pleasure o fmeeting some of them, training with a few...they are good marial artists who have made a decision to pursue a particular path. They deserve respect and not derision.

Peace,
Erik

thats what I am saying. I respect those people 100%. I do not have any problem with people competing. For some reason though much like everything else around this horsecrud town.. people like to skip straight to the "good stuff".

We've had people come in wanting to learn MMA.. and scoff at us when we explain to them what our school teaches.

We've had people come in (had one today) wanting to put their gymnastics daughters in so that they can learn some kicks and punches for sparring and forms. The one today was sorely dissappointed when Mr instructor told him we didn't have an XMA program, and that she would have to follow the curriculum just like everyone else.

I think I need to move.

 

[BrandonLucas]

I think that somewhere along the way we have all gotten off the original topic of this thread: keeping your hands up while sparring.

I don't agree with the way sport TKD gamers keep their hands down while they spar, but in their ruleset, I guess it allows them to play the game easier and more efficiently.

Would I teach this method in SD applications? NO! Would I advise other martial artists to keep their hands down to stay faster in anything OTHER than the SPORT aspect? Never.

I just worry that people that get wrapped up in the sport are going to train to keep their hands down, and when the time comes to defend themselves, they may try to keep their hands up to protect themselves, but it won't be as "second-nature" as it would for people who train that way everyday. I'm not saying that they won't be smart enough to defend themselves, but, we all know that if you don't train correctly, problems can occur.

As far as the sport aspect goes, as Sylo has stated before, I don't disagree with competing in a martial art. I do disagree with the ruleset that's in place, but, to be fair, it is the safest way to compete with minimal injuries.

I just imagine TKD tournements should be like "Best of the Best". Or, for that matter, to make it more modern, watch Chuck Norris's World Combat League. It's pretty much full contact, but I think the "Best of the Best" scenerio would work best.

I also disagree with only training in TKD to compete in it. To me, it's just like the MMA mindset that you are only there to compete, and there's no other reason to learn a martial art.

To me, TKD has always taught me how to avoid fights, it makes me feel good physically, mentally, and emotionally, and takes away the need to prove myself to others. It's not about competing all the time. That's not to say that martial artists shouldn't compete. But I don't think that it should be the reason anyone would join.

Now, as far as the blackbelt thing goes, I have ran into several "gamer" TKD practitioners that knew none of the poomse, the taeguk, or any of the rest of the traditional side of the martial art, and yet, they had a 3rd or 4th degree blackbelt around their waist. And, when asked how long it took them to achieve the rank of 3rd degree black belt, their response was "Oh, about 2 years or so. I had to work quickly so that I could get out on the tournement circuit and compete. If I win enough tounements, I could get picked to be on team Paul Mitchel."

A blackbelt is not something that should be taken lightly, and yet, some of the people who see TKD as a sporting game and nothing more seem to acheieve the highest levels of the martial art quicker than it took me to get to red belt. Notice I said some of the people. I'm not saying that all gamers are this way, but, unfortunately, this is what people (that I've talked to that are not martial artists in any way, and not all from the area that I live) think of when they hear TKD. I'm not saying that ALL people think this, but alot of people that I have personally talked to think that. And Im also not saying that the public has any knowledge of TKD as a sport and not a martail art, or viceversa, or that everyone knows what it is, or that no one knows what it is. I'm saying that people that I have spoken with that do not practice martial arts and do not follow TKD regularly know of it as a sport.

And if only a few people think that about it in those terms, then it could potentially spread. And then we're left with a dying martial art that has turned completely into a sport competition that's watered down. But that's only what COULD happen. I'm not saying that it will.

It just worries me.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I'm not trying to make enemies here. We all have opinions. Mine are not wrong, and neither are yours. Yeah I kind of have this pent up aggression against sports. Why? Because I live in redneckville where the world revolves around football and basketball. Noone cares if you have an education, just as long as you can do either of those 2 things very well. Our entire city shuts down during football season. So yeah I kind of have an animosity towards sports..

However, that animosity has nothing to do with my comments on this subject. You guys are either missing my point all together, or just wanting have a reason to discredit anything I say.

Actually, I think you've made a lot of good points in a lot of your posts. I do appreciate you sharing your perspective.

Daniel

 

[Sylo]

Actually, I think you've made a lot of good points in a lot of your posts.

In any case, living in redneck-ville isn't the only place where sports are king. I live in what was once redneckville and is now suburbia (Grew up with farms all around me, but the farmers harvested houses over the years). Yuppie suburbanites bring the same sort of nonsense to their kids football games that they do to the dojang. Education is not the problem. In fact, there are a lot of people who have more education than sense. And plenty with more money than sense.

Every level of social strata has its own peculiarities and presents its own unique challenges to the MA community. Believe me, sometimes I'd rather have redneckville than suburbia.

Daniel

Yeah, in the end I think they 2 can coincide. You can control some things, but location is not one of them.. there are different types of people everywhere.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Yowch! I edited my own post and accidentally deleted most of it!

Daniel

 

[slingblade01]

Would I teach this method in SD applications?

No one in this entire thread has suggested such a thing.

Besides, the need to block kicks in SD is virtually non-existent

Now, as far as the blackbelt thing goes, I have ran into several "gamer" TKD practitioners that knew none of the poomse, the taeguk, or any of the rest of the traditional side of the martial art, and yet, they had a 3rd or 4th degree blackbelt around their waist. And, when asked how long it took them to achieve the rank of 3rd degree black belt, their response was "Oh, about 2 years or so. I had to work quickly so that I could get out on the tournement circuit and compete. If I win enough tounements, I could get picked to be on team Paul Mitchel."

This is misleading since Team PM only sponsors sport karate not TKD.

 

[slingblade01]

I guess in my 20 some odd years studying 5 different arts...I've never seen this. I've never seen a place where oyu can walk in off teh street and ONLY study competition sparring. I know there are TKD schools that focus on the sports competition stuff...but typically you don't walk in there as a rank beginner. Nope, they scout the tourneys for prospects and let more traditional schools instill strong basics.

I guess what I'm saying that the folks at the top of the tkd competition heap are not as one dimensional as you and others amke them out ot be. I've had the pleasure o fmeeting some of them, training with a few...they are good marial artists who have made a decision to pursue a particular path. They deserve respect and not derision.

Peace,
Erik

Folks, read it again. This has been my experience as well.

I couldn't had said this any better. (derision - now that's a $5 word :wink2: )

 

[BrandonLucas]

First, there is no disrespect meant to anyone, whether they are a "gamer" who attends tournements or not.

Secondly, I was only using Team Paul Mitchell as an example of the mentality of the "gamers" that I have come in contact with. If this is misleading, then I appologize, but I do not keep up with these tourney teams, and was merely throwing the only name that I could think of out there. So, instead of Team Paul Mitchell, let's go with Team (insert popular TKD team). Better?

Thirdly, I have, in fact, had to block kicks in fights before. Not only that, but keeping your hands up in SD applications and situations assists in blocking punches as well. Either way, it would make absolutely no sense at all to go into a SD situation or fight in general with your hands down. I'm merely trying to state that if you train with your hands down constantly, that's the way you're going to be used to doing things. That's not to say that a person trained that way would definitely fight that way, but we all know that if you train incorrectly long enough, the effects can be damaging.

Fourthly, it doesn't matter whether anyone has suggested that they would actually teach the hands down method or not. I'm saying that it's something that I don't agree with, and that I'll never teach.

I have had experience with "gamers" that try to say that they are able to use what they know in SD applications and scenerios, and I've proven them wrong. These people tend to get angry when they realize that they can't walk into a fight with their hands hanging at their sides, and it angers me that they are being taught that way.

I'm not saying that everyone who takes from WTF or who spars in these tourneys is this way. This is the experience that I've had, and I can only speak from my experience.

Again, no disrespect is intended towards ANYONE. Gamer or martial artist. I respect everyone equally until they give me a reason to not respect them.

 

[terryl965]

First, there is no disrespect meant to anyone, whether they are a "gamer" who attends tournements or not.

Secondly, I was only using Team Paul Mitchell as an example of the mentality of the "gamers" that I have come in contact with. If this is misleading, then I appologize, but I do not keep up with these tourney teams, and was merely throwing the only name that I could think of out there. So, instead of Team Paul Mitchell, let's go with Team (insert popular TKD team). Better?

Thirdly, I have, in fact, had to block kicks in fights before. Not only that, but keeping your hands up in SD applications and situations assists in blocking punches as well. Either way, it would make absolutely no sense at all to go into a SD situation or fight in general with your hands down. I'm merely trying to state that if you train with your hands down constantly, that's the way you're going to be used to doing things. That's not to say that a person trained that way would definitely fight that way, but we all know that if you train incorrectly long enough, the effects can be damaging.

Fourthly, it doesn't matter whether anyone has suggested that they would actually teach the hands down method or not. I'm saying that it's something that I don't agree with, and that I'll never teach.

I have had experience with "gamers" that try to say that they are able to use what they know in SD applications and scenerios, and I've proven them wrong. These people tend to get angry when they realize that they can't walk into a fight with their hands hanging at their sides, and it angers me that they are being taught that way.

I'm not saying that everyone who takes from WTF or who spars in these tourneys is this way. This is the experience that I've had, and I can only speak from my experience.

Again, no disrespect is intended towards ANYONE. Gamer or martial artist. I respect everyone equally until they give me a reason to not respect them.

Excellent post and believe me I agree with alot of what you have to say.

 

[slingblade01]

First, there is no disrespect meant to anyone, whether they are a "gamer" who attends tournements or not.

Yet, you repeatedly refer to them in a derogatory fashion as "gamers".

Concerning SD, nobody cares. Most parents of potential students are looking respect, discipline, or exercise.

If I were so paranoid about SD, I certainly wouldn't be practicing TKD.

You obvisously don't compete in WTF sparring (the title of this thread), so why are you trying to sell your bad advice to those who do?

Try starting another thread titled "SD sparring - Hands-up or Hands-down?"

I'm sure you'll hear what you want to hear.

Enough.

 

[Sylo]

Yet, you repeatedly refer to them in a derogatory fashion as "gamers".

Concerning SD, nobody cares. Most parents of potential students are looking respect, discipline, or exercise.

If I were so paranoid about SD, I certainly wouldn't be practicing TKD.

You obvisously don't compete in WTF sparring (the title of this thread), so why are you trying to sell your bad advice to those who do?

Try starting another thread titled "SD sparring - Hands-up or Hands-down?"

I'm sure you'll hear what you want to hear.

Enough.

I don't see how calling them "gamers" is any different than calling an MMA practicioner a "fighter". Different titles for different jobs.

What they do is a game. You can't call them fighters, because they aren't. They are gamers, because what they do requires that they learn a minimalist version of TKD that only includes moves that work under the rules. In this case, its 3-4 kicks and hands down to the side.

The only thing that we are trying to say is that the "sport" side of TKD should be made very clearly seperate from the traditional/SD side. They are apples and oranges. Ranks in one should not be compared to the other. My teacher is a 5th dan under one of Gen. Choi's first students. He knows the art inside and out and has been teaching it for the past 30 years. He'd never be able to do the things that say mango man's daughter can do. But I can bet he knows the art of TKD better than anyone that currently competes. How is it fair to put him on the same level as her, when its obviously 2 different things. WTF competitors (gamers) are very good at what they do. They take a very small part of TKD and capitolize on it, so that they can make it fit the mold of the rules. Its not their fault, more so than it is the ruleset. The ruleset forces them to have to "game" the system in order to compete with everyone else who is.

I know for a fact that If I tried to compete in those style matches. In order to win, I'd have to break the rules. All they are being taught is how to stay within the confines of the rules, and win. Its not the same thing.

Its 2 different things. They should not be compared as one.

I respect anyone who takes the time to become good at something. As long as it stays a "sport" and doesn't mesh over into other things. I have no issues with it.

There will be traditional folks who are amazing, and there will be sport folks who will be good at what they do.

 

[BrandonLucas]

Yet, you repeatedly refer to them in a derogatory fashion as "gamers".

Concerning SD, nobody cares. Most parents of potential students are looking respect, discipline, or exercise.

If I were so paranoid about SD, I certainly wouldn't be practicing TKD.

You obvisously don't compete in WTF sparring (the title of this thread), so why are you trying to sell your bad advice to those who do?

Try starting another thread titled "SD sparring - Hands-up or Hands-down?"

I'm sure you'll hear what you want to hear.

Enough.

You sound very jaded, and have offered nothing of any use to anyone. And, I'm willing to bet that you are one of the "gamers" that I'm referring to.

I am not using the term "gamer" to be derogatory. It's what people who compete in the "game" are. "Gamers". If this was a full contact tourney, then they would be "fighters"...until they learn how to "game the game", at which point they will become "gamers" as well.

And why on earth would anyone join a martial art if not to learn the SD side of it?

You are actually correct about the fact that I do not compete in WTF competition. And, yet, I don't see how that's relevant, as I am a 2nd degree black belt in ITF TKD. People post on here all the time that do not have experience in WTF. If you insist on calling the Olympic style of sparring TKD, then I have every right to post on these forums.

Maybe you should go back and actually READ some of the other posts in this thread instead of posting on here like you know what you're talking about.

I think you're on these forums to pick fights. I would suggest either you start contributing to these threads with some substance, or let the grown-ups talk.

 

[kaizasosei]

anyone with two good feet and enough funk can learn to kick like a tiger.

wtf. block no block....what's the big deal? kick good no block.

block good no kick.... where's the mystery? block bad kick bad no good.



j