Wrist manipulation in MMA

[Skpotamus]

Congratulations, it sounds like you school does a great job. Recall that I said MOST, not ALL.

I do have a few questions for you though. How do you increase resistance? Do you simply grab your vicitm as hard as you can and stand there while they try to do the lock like most schools do (I've only been to about 30 or so schools and all but one did their techniques this way) or do you make your attacks realistic? Outside of a dojo, a person will not grab your wrist and stand there looking at you while you try to break their wrist. People grab other people to push or pull them into something. Typically either a van, alley, wall, punch or weapon, the attacker isn't going to stop if you block that first attack and let you try to break their arm, they keep on coming with more and more attacks until you stop them by hurting them. When you soften up your opponent by striking them, they typically let go and you lose the lock anyways.

I have yet to see a wrist lock work when someone grabbed the other person and tried to actually attack them in an unrehearsed manner (meaning the defender didn't know what the attacker was going to do before they did it).

Out of curiousity, have you ever fought in a MMA match before? If you have, or been around many mma matches, you'll find that wrists aren't heavily taped. Some places and fighters don't use it at all. Wraps go around your metacarpals and carpals to compress the bones in your hands and pad the knuckles a little bit, not so much around your wrist. If you put too much around the wrist, it actually makes the gloves a pain in the butt to slip on and leaves them loose, as well as creates a great fulcrum to break your wrist while punching.

When I first started fighting mma, it was under pancrase rules, we didn't wear gloves or wraps, and could only strike with open palms. I never saw any wristlocks work during pancrase matches, although I did see a few attempted (from failed juji-gatame armbar attempts where the defender grabs their own hands to stop the arm from being extended), none succeeded because they slipped off while trying due to the sweat and the opponent moving. We did have a Aiki-Jiu-jitsu black belt come in to fight a challenge match though... he never even got close to getting a lock on his opponent (to be fair, he was fighting a guy who already had 3 fights and was only 45 lbs lighter). Wearing gloves does make it very hard to grab anything though, and since it's ILLEGAL TO HOLD ANOTHER FIGHTERS GLOVES IN MMA, it makes it much more difficult to get a wrist lock.

When I teach Defensive Tactics to Indiana Law Enforcement, wrist locks and armbars are used as restraining tools against passively resisting subjects, both of the locks are taught from the escort position (for a right handed officer, subject on officers right side and slightly forward (officer roughly 7-8 o'clock relative to subject facing direction), subjects left wrist being gribbed by officers left hand, with officers right hand on subjects' triceps). When the subject attempts to curl their arm, the officer goes into the transport wrist lock or "gooseneck hold", if the subject tries to pull their arm out straight, they go into an armbar. If the subject gets their arm out, they abandon the lock and proceed up to the next force level.

I got my information from my real world experience in real altercations working security for frat parties, in real fights, in teaching prison guards and police how to stop bad guys from trying to kill them, as well as my professional fighting career (brief and unspectacular as it was), my instructors experience from a liftetime of training and working in both the military and law enforcement and my own experience training since 1989. Oh, and I read a few books too

 

[DavidCC]

old addage : grappling counters striking, qinna counters grappling, and striking counters qinna.

So trying to lock up somone intent on striking you is not the most appropriate use of qinna techniques.

 

[Selfcritical]

I also train in BJJ, and to be honest I am surprised that they don't train in more wrist control techniques. I have seen many oocasions where someone is trying to "post up" when in someone elses guard, and they leave their arms straight out grabbing onto their opponents clothing. It seems that this would be the perfect opportunity to grab the wrist, but unfortunately we don't do too much real sparring in my class so I haven't had many opportunities to try it.

A BJJ class where you don't do much sparring? Buh?

 

[allenjp]

A BJJ class where you don't do much sparring? Buh?

We do spar, but I am still just a newbie there and at the lower levels they don't really let us "go at it", most sparring we do at this level is limited to specific sweeps, chokes, and locks that we are learning that day...It's a Gracie Barra school.

 

[Bodhisattva]

I know that "small joint manipulation" as in finger locks are against the rules, but what about wrist locks? Almost all the TMA's use wrist locks that seem to be at least fairly effective, but I have never really seen any used in MMA competition, is this because it is against the rules, or because they are just not as realistically effective as they seem. Or maybe it is because they are difficult to execute when someone is wearing gloves? Any ideas?

I don't think wrist locks are typically effective against aggressive, athletic opponents, with even a bit of wrestling ability.

They are also not great for self-defense, either, against a determined opponent.

To stop a determined opponent, you have to break a major joint. The wrist won't do.

They are also fairly easy to prevent, and fairly easy to escape.

I can only think of a few situations where I like a wrist lock.. no.. wait.. I actually can't.

 

[zDom]

Congratulations, it sounds like you school does a great job. Recall that I said MOST, not ALL.

We like to think so As far as I know, nobody has ever quit because of a lack of faith in the techniques, but because the workouts were too hard.

I do have a few questions for you though. How do you increase resistance? Do you simply grab your vicitm as hard as you can and stand there while they try to do the lock like most schools do (I've only been to about 30 or so schools and all but one did their techniques this way) or do you make your attacks realistic?

Basic movements are learned without resistance to start with. Learning the correct movement is the goal early on.

Advanced training is progressively more realistic.

Outside of a dojo, a person will not grab your wrist and stand there looking at you while you try to break their wrist. People grab other people to push or pull them into something. Typically either a van, alley, wall, punch or weapon, the attacker isn't going to stop if you block that first attack and let you try to break their arm, they keep on coming with more and more attacks until you stop them by hurting them. When you soften up your opponent by striking them, they typically let go and you lose the lock anyways.

FWIW, the day I got my jaw broke (before I started martial arts), the two guys held on to my wrists for an extended period while the third worked me over with a tire tool. Sure wish I had known some basic wrist locks on that day.

And while basic wrist locks are introduced from a opponent's grab, more advanced techniques we grab THEM and apply the lock. Some of these movements start from 6 feet away.

I have yet to see a wrist lock work when someone grabbed the other person and tried to actually attack them in an unrehearsed manner (meaning the defender didn't know what the attacker was going to do before they did it).

While usually these take a great deal of training to "make them work," you'd be surprised. A recent example of something that surprised us is, a brown belt's little brother had been shown in passing a variation of what JMAs call "kote hono gaeshi" from a shirt grab — an adductive wristlock that breaks or causes significant pain through extreme ulnar deviation.

Although he didn't have any training to speak of, he successfully applied this lock while being assaulted. It put that guy completely out of the fight. He doesn't know if it sprained or broke the guy's wrist, but that guy was DONE. He ended up walking away from that altercation (after also dealing with the second attacker) unhurt.

Out of curiousity, have you ever fought in a MMA match before? If you have, or been around many mma matches, you'll find that wrists aren't heavily taped. Some places and fighters don't use it at all. Wraps go around your metacarpals and carpals to compress the bones in your hands and pad the knuckles a little bit, not so much around your wrist. If you put too much around the wrist, it actually makes the gloves a pain in the butt to slip on and leaves them loose, as well as creates a great fulcrum to break your wrist while punching.

I didn't know that. I have covered local MMA fights for the newspaper I work for; they tape their wrists. MMA events on TV I've watched also tape their fighters' wrists. I thought it was standard fight preparation for that sport. It's good to hear that some fight without taped wrists.

Haven't fought in any MMA matches; at 40 years old I value my well-being too much. Win or lose, there is always the risk of a significant injury.

Hapkido is focused on self defense and it is hard to defend yourself or train to defend yourself while recouperating from an injury.

When I first started fighting mma, it was under pancrase rules, we didn't wear gloves or wraps, and could only strike with open palms. I never saw any wristlocks work during pancrase matches, although I did see a few attempted (from failed juji-gatame armbar attempts where the defender grabs their own hands to stop the arm from being extended), none succeeded because they slipped off while trying due to the sweat and the opponent moving. We did have a Aiki-Jiu-jitsu black belt come in to fight a challenge match though... he never even got close to getting a lock on his opponent (to be fair, he was fighting a guy who already had 3 fights and was only 45 lbs lighter). Wearing gloves does make it very hard to grab anything though, and since it's ILLEGAL TO HOLD ANOTHER FIGHTERS GLOVES IN MMA, it makes it much more difficult to get a wrist lock.

When I teach Defensive Tactics to Indiana Law Enforcement, wrist locks and armbars are used as restraining tools against passively resisting subjects, both of the locks are taught from the escort position (for a right handed officer, subject on officers right side and slightly forward (officer roughly 7-8 o'clock relative to subject facing direction), subjects left wrist being gribbed by officers left hand, with officers right hand on subjects' triceps). When the subject attempts to curl their arm, the officer goes into the transport wrist lock or "gooseneck hold", if the subject tries to pull their arm out straight, they go into an armbar. If the subject gets their arm out, they abandon the lock and proceed up to the next force level.

This principle is trained in our HKD system beginning in the middle gup (under blackbelt) ranks. We train many techniques so that, if resisted, we go into another technique — could be another wristlock, could be a throw; strikes are often involved.

I got my information from my real world experience in real altercations working security for frat parties, in real fights, in teaching prison guards and police how to stop bad guys from trying to kill them, as well as my professional fighting career (brief and unspectacular as it was), my instructors experience from a liftetime of training and working in both the military and law enforcement and my own experience training since 1989. Oh, and I read a few books too

What works for prison guards and police who train techiques on occassion is going to be much more limited than what works for someone who dedicates themselves to a lifetime of regular training.

As mentioned in previous posts over the years here, I've been assaulted many, many times over my lifetime since I was in 2nd grade at the bus stop to potentially lethal assaults at bars.

Wrist locking is not for everybody. It is a long-term investment, for most people. Some people will never be able to use them effectively, perhaps.

But doesn't that also ring true for say, a basic punch? Doesn't mean punching is ineffective; it just means some people can't punch well.

But for those who "get it" and train diligently, wrist locks are a VERY useful tool that can still be used long after the ability to kick, throw or punch hard have fallen by the wayside.

 

[allenjp]

I watch a lot of videos of street fights because I like to see what will really happen if attacked. It surprises me sometimes but it is a VERY common tactic for an attacker to grab onto the victims clothing and hold it with one hand while punching with the other. Most of the time this is difficult for the victim to overcome, because they don't know how to take a punch or two and when they get hit they do nothing other than try to shield their face from the blows. Obviously I don't think most pro fighters would employ this tactic, but I don't anticipate getting attacked by many pro fighters. Most of them are too worried about their careers to be fighting on the streets. And if one does attack me one day, I'd like to think I could recognize the fact that I was dealing with a trained fighter and adjust my tactics accordingly. There are also ways to use feints and other such techniques to trick your opponent into exposing their arm to you.

 

[Odin]

Wrist locks do not work in MMA because of the hand wrapes and the glove rule simple as.

Saying that though im sure i have seen some wrist lock tap outs in Pride.

I think one thing everyone is missing her is when they talk of resisting opponents is the skill level, someone who doesnt know what they are doing can resist all they want your still more then likely will get the hold but if you have someone resisting that knows what he is doing and knows escapes then this is a different matter all together and since we are talking about MMA here most do.

 

[Skpotamus]

Basic movements are learned without resistance to start with. Learning the correct movement is the goal early on.

Advanced training is progressively more realistic.

That's how we prepare as well, we have them start with no resistance, and only light grabs, then work up to full out attacks with some padding


FWIW, the day I got my jaw broke (before I started martial arts), the two guys held on to my wrists for an extended period while the third worked me over with a tire tool. Sure wish I had known some basic wrist locks on that day.
[/quote]
Ouch, having three people attack you with weapons is a nightmare scenario, congrats on surviving (many people don't). Do you think any of your wrist locks you know now would've helped you in that situation?

And while basic wrist locks are introduced from a opponent's grab, more advanced techniques we grab THEM and apply the lock. Some of these movements start from 6 feet away.

That's actually how i teach most of my locks, instead of reactionary defenses, as initialized attacks entering into your opponent with strikes and initiating a clinch.

While usually these take a great deal of training to "make them work," you'd be surprised. A recent example of something that surprised us is, a brown belt's little brother had been shown in passing a variation of what JMAs call "kote hono gaeshi" from a shirt grab — an adductive wristlock that breaks or causes significant pain through extreme ulnar deviation.

Although he didn't have any training to speak of, he successfully applied this lock while being assaulted. It put that guy completely out of the fight. He doesn't know if it sprained or broke the guy's wrist, but that guy was DONE. He ended up walking away from that altercation (after also dealing with the second attacker) unhurt.

That's impressive, I'm not up on my names anymore, but if it's the lock I think it is, it's a very unpleasant one. His ability to apply it is impressive.

I didn't know that. I have covered local MMA fights for the newspaper I work for; they tape their wrists. MMA events on TV I've watched also tape their fighters' wrists. I thought it was standard fight preparation for that sport. It's good to hear that some fight without taped wrists.

Haven't fought in any MMA matches; at 40 years old I value my well-being too much. Win or lose, there is always the risk of a significant injury.

When i first started fighting, it was under pancrase rules, when they switched over to full NHB (at the time it was still called that) rules, we were allowed to wear gloves, but couldn't wrap. I've caught quite a few UFC events that showed fighters not wearing wraps under their gloves (matt serra comes to mind)

This principle is trained in our HKD system beginning in the middle gup (under blackbelt) ranks. We train many techniques so that, if resisted, we go into another technique — could be another wristlock, could be a throw; strikes are often involved.

What works for prison guards and police who train techiques on occassion is going to be much more limited than what works for someone who dedicates themselves to a lifetime of regular training.

True, but people who find themselves in those jobs have to justify their actions to a disciplinary board and a lawsuit after the fact. When teaching LEO's and prison guards ( a large number of our school) we have to keep that in mind. If they can't claim that they used a portion of the PPCT curriculum that is taught, the department and the officer can be held liable. So we have to be careful that any of the locks we show them are similar to the transport wrist lock (gooseneck hold), or variations of the armbar, so that if they injur a suspect, and the suspect sues, they can still be covered by their department. It sucks, but then, the justice system is designed to protect the criminals and the wallets of the dept, not the officers.
For instance, in Indiana, a LEO isn't allowed to strike the head of a subject unless deadly force is justified. However, a subject striking an officer in the head isn't considered deadly force in most cases (unless large discrepency of force issues).

As mentioned in previous posts over the years here, I've been assaulted many, many times over my lifetime since I was in 2nd grade at the bus stop to potentially lethal assaults at bars.

Wrist locking is not for everybody. It is a long-term investment, for most people. Some people will never be able to use them effectively, perhaps.

But doesn't that also ring true for say, a basic punch? Doesn't mean punching is ineffective; it just means some people can't punch well.

But for those who "get it" and train diligently, wrist locks are a VERY useful tool that can still be used long after the ability to kick, throw or punch hard have fallen by the wayside.

Agreed, wrist locks can and do work, especially if you train them properly (using a logical progression from just learning the movements to using them against a full out assault), they do take a lot of work to get down, but can be worth it. (I've had a few instances of using joint locks successfully in real situations), I just have found far too many schools that don't train realistically. The local hapkido school is a prime example, their classes never go beyond the learning level of joint locking (no resistance), and they never even spar or drill, just use pads for striking and slow motion SD.

 

[zDom]

Yep. The ability to apply wrist lock or wrist escape would have made a significant difference in that situation. It is probably why I find that hapkido is the art for me, among other reasons.