Wrist manipulation in MMA

[allenjp]

I know that "small joint manipulation" as in finger locks are against the rules, but what about wrist locks? Almost all the TMA's use wrist locks that seem to be at least fairly effective, but I have never really seen any used in MMA competition, is this because it is against the rules, or because they are just not as realistically effective as they seem. Or maybe it is because they are difficult to execute when someone is wearing gloves? Any ideas?

 

[terryl965]

I believe it is to hard to get control of the wrist during a MMA bout. This is just my opinion.

 

[tellner]

There have been times in grappling class where I had the forearm perpendicular to the ground and put my weight on the bent wrist. It never got a tap, but sometimes it reduced the other guy's mobility enough for me to get a better position

 

[allenjp]

I believe it is to hard to get control of the wrist during a MMA bout. This is just my opinion.

I see you train in Hapkido so I am sure that wrist locks and control is an integral part of your training. Do you think that this is difficult because of the style of fighting? Do you think these moves are more viable in a SD situation? If so, why?

 

[terryl965]

I see you train in Hapkido so I am sure that wrist locks and control is an integral part of your training. Do you think that this is difficult because of the style of fighting? Do you think these moves are more viable in a SD situation? If so, why?

Actually I am TKD and Okinawa Karate but have done both Combat and regular Hapkido. I believe they are not done because of the sport side of MMA , but they can be a vital asset to you SD stituation if you work them on a regular basis.

 

[FearlessFreep]

wearing gloves makes it a bit hard. Your gloves makes the grip harder to get and the opponents glove protects their wrist.

 

[D Dempsey]

I know that wrist locks are perfectly legal in MMA, but you rarely see them. I've pulled them off a few times in BJJ, but it isn't a real high percentage thing. The degree that you have to isolate the limb is much higher than if you were setting up an armbar, so there is a lot more room for error. I still use the wrist attacks I learned in CMA in BJJ, but I use them as break grip. Strangely enough that works great.

 

[DavidCC]

it is illegal by most MMA rules to hold on to the gloves of your opponent. This probably makes most wrist locks illegal in MMA bouts.

 

[allenjp]

I know that wrist locks are perfectly legal in MMA, but you rarely see them. I've pulled them off a few times in BJJ, but it isn't a real high percentage thing. The degree that you have to isolate the limb is much higher than if you were setting up an armbar, so there is a lot more room for error. I still use the wrist attacks I learned in CMA in BJJ, but I use them as break grip. Strangely enough that works great.

I also train in BJJ, and to be honest I am surprised that they don't train in more wrist control techniques. I have seen many oocasions where someone is trying to "post up" when in someone elses guard, and they leave their arms straight out grabbing onto their opponents clothing. It seems that this would be the perfect opportunity to grab the wrist, but unfortunately we don't do too much real sparring in my class so I haven't had many opportunities to try it.

 

[allenjp]

it is illegal by most MMA rules to hold on to the gloves of your opponent. This probably makes most wrist locks illegal in MMA bouts.

This makes more sense to me since most wrist manipulation techniques are performed by holding onto the hand...which would of course be holding onto the gloves.

 

[allenjp]

wearing gloves makes it a bit hard. Your gloves makes the grip harder to get and the opponents glove protects their wrist.

I kinda figured this would come into play, I've never competed with gloves so I didn't know for sure...

 

[jks9199]

I'd also suspect that the handwraps under the gloves and the design of the gloves, even for MMA, limit the usefulness and ability to attack the wrists.

 

[D Dempsey]

it is illegal by most MMA rules to hold on to the gloves of your opponent. This probably makes most wrist locks illegal in MMA bouts.

This doesn't really apply to wrist lock, this just bans you grabbing the inside of the gloves. I have seen a few, and I mean just a few, wrist lock submissions in MMA. One of them was by Royce Gracie in Pride.

I'd also suspect that the handwraps under the gloves and the design of the gloves, even for MMA, limit the usefulness and ability to attack the wrists.

You know I never considered that. Your probably right.

 

[theletch1]

One of the biggest mistakes that I see new aikido-ka do when going for a wrist manipulation is allow their fingers to slide down a little onto uke's wrist. This splints the wrist and detracts greatly from the effectiveness of the manipulation. Add gloves and hand wraps to the mix and you've effectively nullified any gain that you'd make from sankyo or ikkyo.

 

[Perpetual White Belt]

The the hand wraps and gloves both brace the wrists, so it makes it almost impossible to get the full range of motion in a wrist lock.

 

[Skpotamus]

It's actually pretty hard to grab anything at all with MMA gloves on. Especially if you have wraps on underneath. They fill the palm up quite a bit to make a sturdier fist, but leave you little room to actually grip something. Making just grabbing an arm for an armbar difficult (you have to hook a lot more than grab), Making manipulations of the wrist a lot harder.

In modern MMA, grabbing the gloves are illegal. Which makes wrist locks almost impossible.

If you watch a newer UFC, you will hear the ref constantly yell at the guy on bottom to not grab the gloves, when the guy on bottom is trying to control the wrists to not get punched. Basically, anything from wrist forward is a no grab area.


The other big problem is that MOST wrist locks taught in TMA's don't work on resisting opponents. Getting them to work on trained, resisting opponents is almost impossible. Especially standing. Being able to strike with the knees, the other arm etc makes them very tough to get (joe schmoe on the street can be a different matter though, but it's still a lot harder than most schools train).

Getting them on the ground is a bit easier, but still hard even without gloves.

 

[jks9199]

The other big problem is that MOST wrist locks taught in TMA's don't work on resisting opponents. Getting them to work on trained, resisting opponents is almost impossible. Especially standing. Being able to strike with the knees, the other arm etc makes them very tough to get (joe schmoe on the street can be a different matter though, but it's still a lot harder than most schools train).

I disagree with this. Many traditional wrist locks do work; for example, most cops are quite familiar with the "gooseneck" lock, which is a basic wrist lock and which does work, quite well, so long as the subject is feeling pain.

The difficulty is that many places don't teach the student to apply them well, and with an emphasis on how it works when you meet resistance. That's not nearly the same thing as saying they don't work.

 

[SilatFan]

As far as BJJ goes ive seen Ronaldo ‘Jacare’ Souza use the wrist lock in competition successfully and I believe Fredson Paixao won a gold medal in the mundials by using a wrist lock in the finals. I know that experts like Professor Osvaldo Alves and Sergio Penha also advocate using them a lot as well.

 

[Skpotamus]

The "gooseneck hold" as taught from the escort position when the armbar is resisted by the subject attempting to curl out of it can and does work in that context, you escorting a subject and them passively resisting by curling and pulling away from you.

However, I have yet to see one MMA fighter escort another fighter around the cage.

Most TMA's teach the majority of their locks from static assaults, IE, the guy comes in with a punch and stops while you deflect and catch their wrist, then step into a wrist lock of some variety while the attacker stands there and lets you. Or the most common attack in almost ANY dojo in america.... the dreaded wrist grab and stand there while they lock you up.

While you can get some of the traditional wrist locks to work, you can't do them the way most schools teach them. Too many never get past the introductory teaching phase of a student sticking out their arm and letting you lock them up. If they aren't doing it in unrehearsed free sparring, then the locks are worthless to that individual. Very few schools I've seen teach locks where they work best from, the clinch with a lot of body contact to off balance your opponent. Think of it as Judo Kuzushi with Jiu-Jitsu or Aikido locks. It's ugly, and "bad technique" as I was told on many occasions, but it works.

In BJJ or any type of submisison grappling, the wrist lock is a lot easier to apply since you can grab the hands and you aren't hampered by wraps and gloves.

 

[zDom]

The other big problem is that MOST wrist locks taught in TMA's don't work on resisting opponents. Getting them to work on trained, resisting opponents is almost impossible. Especially standing. Being able to strike with the knees, the other arm etc makes them very tough to get (joe schmoe on the street can be a different matter though, but it's still a lot harder than most schools train).

Oh really? That's funny, because our dan ranking curriculum includes training wrist locks with a FULLY RESISTING partner.

My instructor says, "If you still have hair on your lower arm after training these, you aren't resisting hard enough." Sucks because the harder you resist, the more it hurts.

I don't know where you get your information — from people learning/teaching wrist locks out of a book? — but you are completely wrong.

Poorly trained people using wrist locks undoubtedly fail — as they would with many other techniques.


But someone who is well trained in wrist locks knows not only how to correctly apply a lock, but WHEN to apply a lock. And what makes you think they aren't applied after softening up a target with strikes?

I won't sit by and let unsubstantiated ******** be posted like this.

The main reason wrist locks aren't effective in MMA matches are the wrists are heavily taped. Period.