Wing Tsun Vs Modern Arnis

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by Toasty
Paulie...
How's it going man?

You are not really telling him to attempt to beat a Wing Chun guy with Mod. Arnis style trapping hands are you?!
Wing chun specializes in trapping hands (and legs & body for that matter) and has for several hundred years.
I would think that Mod. Arnis must have other things in its arsenal to compete against a trapping specialist. Perhaps the joint locking & throws?


later dude
Rob

Am I telling him to use Modern Arnis Trapping on a Wing Chun Guy.....why yes!

Here is why...

#1 Trapping is trapping...whether it is Wing Chun, Modern Arnis, or what have you. I've out trapped Wing Chun people before. I am sure that there are some Wing Chun people who can out trap me. I know that Wing Chun people primarily do trapping, however, this doesn't mean that a Person of another art can't out trap them. It all depends on the skill of the practitioner. "It's all da Same..." as Remy used to say to us.

#2 Trying to out do someone at a skill who may be better at that skill then you is a great way to improve that skill within yourself. I sometimes learn the most when I play by the other persons rules.

#3 Speaking of Rules...I posted with the thought that they probably have peramiters set for their sparring...they probably aren't allowed to do joint locks. However, even if they are, in a controlled sparring circumstance it can be very difficult to put a joint lock on an opponent who is throwing controlled strikes in sparring; Joint locks generally require committed attacks. Regardless, even if the attacks are committed enough, even then most joint locks require an innitial attack or distraction of some sort....a softening technique. So getting some sort of strike in still may be a requirement.


Now, I do agree that there are other strategies that one can use; you don't have to play the trapping game with a trapper. If your accustomed to ground fighting, you can do take-downs. If you are accustomed to the distance game, like a tournament sparrer, you can force him into a ame of tag. There are other strategies...but that just depends on what your good at.

PAUL

 

[streetwise]

Engage high like you want to duke it out, draw a response, shoot low for the double leg. I like WC, but this works over and over, especially against the aggressive chain punchers.

 

[Rocky]

As a person who incorperates much Wing Chun Do into my art, I have always found that traditional Wing Chun (Tsun) have a hard time dealing with anyone who takes their corner, as do most martial artist from Judo to Ju Jitsu to Eskrima, which is why CDM concentrates so much on learning to take an opponents corners away from them. If you can take a Wing Chun mans corner, their traditional foot work doesn't work to well for them. You might also try to come in low and under his center point while taking the corner on him.

Paul. sorry dude you relly need to work with some Wing Chun people, it is ill advised to try to out trap a Wing Chun man, thats like bringing a knife to a gun fight, or dating a girl who just broke up with Ron Jeremy, you may think you're up to the task, but you may find yourself coming up a little bit short!!!!!!!! You will probably be playing right into their strong points. In my own personal experience their is much difference between a MA practioners trapping and a Wing Chun mans trapping.

Of course you could learn our trapping and you would have the best of both worlds


Rocky

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by Rocky
{quote]or dating a girl who just broke up with Ron Jeremy, you may think you're up to the task, but you may find yourself coming up a little bit short!!!!!!!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Mike

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by Rocky
As a person who incorperates much Wing Chun Do into my art, I have always found that traditional Wing Chun (Tsun) have a hard time dealing with anyone who takes their corner, as do most martial artist from Judo to Ju Jitsu to Eskrima, which is why CDM concentrates so much on learning to take an opponents corners away from them. If you can take a Wing Chun mans corner, their traditional foot work doesn't work to well for them. You might also try to come in low and under his center point while taking the corner on him.

Paul. sorry dude you relly need to work with some Wing Chun people, it is ill advised to try to out trap a Wing Chun man, thats like bringing a knife to a gun fight, or dating a girl who just broke up with Ron Jeremy, you may think you're up to the task, but you may find yourself coming up a little bit short!!!!!!!! You will probably be playing right into their strong points. In my own personal experience their is much difference between a MA practioners trapping and a Wing Chun mans trapping.

Of course you could learn our trapping and you would have the best of both worlds


Rocky

Rocky- In your oopinion, what would be the best way to defeat a WC guy? One thing that you dont want to do is play their game. IMO, I'd have to say clinch and take it to the ground. I've seen a few NHB fights with WC guys and once the grappler gets the clinch and takes it down, its the beginning of the end for the WC guy. And yes, before anyone says, "Why do you want to go to the ground? There might be broken glass and rocks there!" Sure there just might be. But, if its a matter of getting a little scrapped up or getting my a** kicked, I'm gonna go to the ground.

Mike

 

[Cruentus]

Paul. sorry dude you relly need to work with some Wing Chun people, it is ill advised to try to out trap a Wing Chun man, thats like bringing a knife to a gun fight, or dating a girl who just broke up with Ron Jeremy, you may think you're up to the task, but you may find yourself coming up a little bit short!!!!!!!! You will probably be playing right into their strong points. In my own personal experience their is much difference between a MA practioners trapping and a Wing Chun mans trapping.

In your oopinion, what would be the best way to defeat a WC guy? One thing that you dont want to do is play their game.

Guys...it really depends on your objective. When ArnisNewbie posted, I wasn't under the impression that they were fighting, I was under the impression that he was training with and sparring with a Wing Chun guy. There is a huge difference. If I am fighting a Wing Chun guy, meaning no rules, then I like Hartmans answer, "Just hit him with a stick."

But since I believe we are talking about sparring with rules and peramiters, I guess your strategy will depend on those rules and peramiters, now won't it? If the rules are designed so you have to play the Wing Chun game...then what will you do?

Also...what is the objective here? With ArnisNewbie's only a few months of training, he should be trying to play the Wing Chun game...then he would learn their traps and improve. If his objective is to spar, have fun, and learn, then I would say that by playing the trapping game with a trapping specialist, what better way to improve? Now if his objective is to win, then I would agree that you might want to not play the trapping game.

I still say that playing the trapping game with a wing Chun guy can be a great idea...depending on what your objective is.

btw...I have played with both JKD and Wing Chun people before, but I know very little of the art myself. In my younger days, I enjoyed playing the trapping game with them because it helped me learn how to trap better, even though I was frequently beat. Now, in my older days, I am not beat as much, if at all. Somethin' to think about.....

 

[Tapps]

The stick thing does have it's appeal !

 

[arnisandyz]

Hi,

Anyone familiar with WC butterfly knives and how it compares to arnis-escrima doble baston/sinawali? I've rented a couple videos, but it was primarily forms. Alot of the things were very similar, but it had a different 'feel" to it. (less flow?)

Thanks

Andy

 

[Rocky]

Paul Wrote:

Guys...it really depends on your objective. When ArnisNewbie posted, I wasn't under the impression that they were fighting, I was under the impression that he was training with and sparring with a Wing Chun guy. There is a huge difference. If I am fighting a Wing Chun guy, meaning no rules, then I like Hartmans answer, "Just hit him with a stick."

Yep your're right Paul it does depend on what you objective is. Which is a great tie in for what follows.

Rocky- In your oopinion, what would be the best way to defeat a WC guy? One thing that you dont want to do is play their game. IMO, I'd have to say clinch and take it to the ground. I've seen a few NHB fights with WC guys and once the grappler gets the clinch and takes it down, its the beginning of the end for the WC guy. And yes, before anyone says, "Why do you want to go to the ground? There might be broken glass and rocks there!" Sure there just might be. But, if its a matter of getting a little scrapped up or getting my a** kicked, I'm gonna go to the ground.

Well like Paul said it depends on what you are doing. If its a street fight and we are one on one with each other no one else around I might try to take him to the ground.

But contrary to what the BJJ worshippers think, the UFC is still not street fighting , the last place you want to be in a bar or crowd somewhere is on the ground, while you are trying to do your best Royce Gracie imitation, someone will be stomping the the back of your skull in and you end up with a nick name like "ROCKY"

And if you end up on the ground with someone who might have a knife in his pocket, he might serve your liver up with a little onion and some Farva (SP) beans if you know what I mean!!


Rocky

 

[Tapps]

the last place you want to be in a bar or crowd somewhere is on the ground,

Good Point !

 

[ArnisNewbie]

Hey Guys...

I am sorry i haven't had time to post for a while...but i have read the discussion and found it very interresting...

and as Paul said...my first intention was to spar with the guy and check out the way the WC guys fight and learn something from him...I know that he is more experienced than me and all that but as i stated in earlier....i fell that i learn something each time i get my **** kicked when i spar....i mean it is important to know what your opponent is capable of doing if you should meet a WC guy on the street...but then again if i meet him i would probably have some sort of equalizer a pen or something else at hand which i can put to use...

it is difficult to put one art up against another but the reason i wanted to know about WC was because i had heard that they were almost unbeatable but they must have some weak points all classical arts do have a few...but as of the guys pointed out i would take a WC guy down if it was only him...

now you mention that he would have a knife...but if you look at it...it might be very unlikely that he would have a knife...he knows how to defend himself in hand to hand and he is freaking good at it...what the chance he has a knife
Where i live people have a knife because it serves as an equalizer and they can hide behind the weapon....it is not very often you meet a guy with a knife you knows how to use it....people who's train martial arts feel more confident about themselfves so they won't need a knife and esp. not a WC/WT guy

you can disagree but that just my opinion.....

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by ArnisNewbie
Hey Guys...

I am sorry i haven't had time to post for a while...but i have read the discussion and found it very interresting...

and as Paul said...my first intention was to spar with the guy and check out the way the WC guys fight and learn something from him...I know that he is more experienced than me and all that but as i stated in earlier....i fell that i learn something each time i get my **** kicked when i spar....i mean it is important to know what your opponent is capable of doing if you should meet a WC guy on the street...but then again if i meet him i would probably have some sort of equalizer a pen or something else at hand which i can put to use...

That's what I sorta thought...which is why I responded like I did. If I thought you were asking me how to beat up the wing chun guy who kicks your @$$ and steals your money every day on the way to the bus station, we would be having an entirely different conversation. Since I figured you were looking to learn something from him, I'd play his game. When he tags you, pause the match, and ask him to teach you what he just did, SLOWLY. I can say from experience, this is a great way to learn, especially while your training in primarily in another art. In a different thread, you mentioned the idea of crosstraining, but that you've only been training for a fea months. I say stick to one art that's versitile, like modern arnis, but spar and "play" with people from other arts like this Wing Chun guy. You'll learn how other arts move, and how you can use what you know to counter. You can find solutions to problems you have when sparring/playing with others within' Modern Arnis. You can experience different styles w/o having to break away from learning your base. This is a great way to learn, and become a better fighter!

it is difficult to put one art up against another but the reason i wanted to know about WC was because i had heard that they were almost unbeatable but they must have some weak points all classical arts do have a few...but as of the guys pointed out i would take a WC guy down if it was only him...

No style or practitioner is unbeatable at anything. Wing Chun just happends to focus on hand trapping, the same way Brazilian Jujitsu focus' on grappling, and Sayok Kali focus' on knife work. It's all the same. This doesn't mean that you can't take what you've learned from your style to try to beat them at their specialty. It all depends on your strengths and weaknesses, and by playing the game of the other style, you'll strengthen your own weaknesses.

now you mention that he would have a knife...but if you look at it...it might be very unlikely that he would have a knife...he knows how to defend himself in hand to hand and he is freaking good at it...what the chance he has a knife
Where i live people have a knife because it serves as an equalizer and they can hide behind the weapon....it is not very often you meet a guy with a knife you knows how to use it....people who's train martial arts feel more confident about themselfves so they won't need a knife and esp. not a WC/WT guy

you can disagree but that just my opinion.....

I don't know what its like where you are from in terms of weapons laws and such. But I will say that I am confident enough with 19 years of training in the martial arts that my empty hand ability is good enough to defend myself against MOST people who would attack me. However, I still carry a knife in case the odds are against me. I still have a firearm in my home. I still carry a nice heavy rattan in the car. And if I am attacked and I am not carrying my own weapon, I'll bet I'll find a weapon of opportunity in my environment that resembles a blunt, bladed, or flexable weapon. I guess I am just saying that I wouldn't underestimate the idea that a skilled empty hand person would use a weapon.

However, lucky for you and me, the odds are extremely low that we will be attacked on the street by someone who is trained, so we have very little worries. We are more likely to be attacked by someone who has a weapon, yet who has little to no formal training. Just something to think about.

Train well....

PAUL
:asian:

 

[ArnisNewbie]

Hey Paul

Yeah thanx for ya advice...i love to learn from people who are more experienced than me....they always have an advice or two to give...i think the mentality and community is much different in Denmark than in the states...it really amazes me that you have that many weapons at hand...i have none but my fists...as about guns...i don't even know a person who owns a gun...only the police and the military carry firearms here...and they are extremely carefull when they use it....but i understand why you carry the weapons....i respect and fear weapons a lot...but i think that you would be better to defend youself agains one if you know how to use it yourself...as is the philosophy in Arnis....

there was also another reason why wanted to know aboyt WC.....it is becomming a very populair martial art in Denmark...like it is the new fashion...i know a enough about arts like karate, thai boxing, Aikido, Jiu jitsu...but with WC/WT i know almost nothing...and that is why i spar with that guy.....and also for fun...that is primarely why i train..to have fun and meet new people.....

though There are many paths
At the foot of the mountain
All those who reach the top
See the same moon

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by Rocky

But contrary to what the BJJ worshippers think, the UFC is still not street fighting , the last place you want to be in a bar or crowd somewhere is on the ground, while you are trying to do your best Royce Gracie imitation, someone will be stomping the the back of your skull in and you end up with a nick name like "ROCKY"

Agreed. But, a few things to keep in mind here.

1- Not every fight is going to take place in a bar or crowded area.

2- Not every fight is going to have mult. attackers.

3- If you do go to the ground, you will need the skills to get back to your feet.

4- If you are in a place that is that crowded, a good portion of the things that you might try doing, will probably go out the window cuz there wont be that much room to move anyway.

And if you end up on the ground with someone who might have a knife in his pocket, he might serve your liver up with a little onion and some Farva (SP) beans if you know what I mean!!

Yeah, that is definately something to worry about. A knife is something that is easy to conceal. Getting back to your feet is the best option there.

Mike

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by ArnisNewbie

it is difficult to put one art up against another but the reason i wanted to know about WC was because i had heard that they were almost unbeatable but they must have some weak points all classical arts do have a few...but as of the guys pointed out i would take a WC guy down if it was only him...

I dont know who told you that WC guys are unbeatable! If that was the case, then there wouldnt be any other art around, only WC. Sure, they have some good stuff, but it definately not the ultimate art.

Mike

 

[Cruentus]

But contrary to what the BJJ worshippers think, the UFC is still not street fighting , the last place you want to be in a bar or crowd somewhere is on the ground, while you are trying to do your best Royce Gracie imitation, someone will be stomping the the back of your skull in and you end up with a nick name like "ROCKY"

I don't know why I found this one so funny...I literally laughed out loud and pop came out my nose when I read this!

:rofl: :rofl:

 

[ArnisNewbie]

MJS

hmm guess i have to rephrase that one...what i meant was that dominate the centerline very good...and that they are not to be joked with in a fight...and yeah i got ya point...but again...WC is a tool just like most other arts and in the hands of the right person it can be very deadly.....

and i know that no one i unbeatable...i was just putting things on the edge so people could understand my point...sorry...

 

[Rocky]

Getting back to your feet is the best option there.

True Dat! True Dat!


The most important thing about ground fighting is the ability to get back to your feet as soon as possible!!


This is a philosophy I found to be true in more than just the martial arts!! " No when to go down and when not to go down!!"

And of course fights will not always be in the bar or a crowd, nor will the ground always be soft and fluffy. Falling on a rock, bottle or what ever can make of a very painfull experience. This is why I teach my fathers type of take downs, he always said if a man can fight after you take him down or throw him down, then you get what you deserve. Another saying he was fond of when people would ask him about break falling, he would say yes!! you should make him break when he falls!!!


Rocky

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by ArnisNewbie
MJS

hmm guess i have to rephrase that one...what i meant was that dominate the centerline very good...and that they are not to be joked with in a fight...and yeah i got ya point...but again...WC is a tool just like most other arts and in the hands of the right person it can be very deadly.....

and i know that no one i unbeatable...i was just putting things on the edge so people could understand my point...sorry...

No disrespect meant. Sorry if I came across that way. A friend of mine trained in WC for a while. I had the chance to meet with his Inst. and talk with him, and I have to say, that I was very impressed with his skills. IMO, there is something that can be learned from every art. WC is definately good when it comes to trapping. I would have to say that the best thing to do when facing someone, is to take them out of their game. If they want to stand and punch, close the gap and take them to the ground. If they want to grapple, try to stay up and strike. In the long run, I guess its just like a game of chess---one person has to out think the other.

Mike

 

[sercuerdasfigther]

w.c. and fma empty hands really aren't that different. the angulation is a bit different becuse fma doesnt stick to centerline, but there are many things in common and in tight they resemble each other. both arts are good trappers(w,c. on centerline,fma off centerline) both arts develop sticking hand fighting and both chain strikes together. many wing chun guys train fma becuase they blend well.