Wing Chun/Tsun and FMA's

[tellner]

Rice. That's about all I see in common between [V,W]ing [Ts,Ch]un and the FMA. The cultures they came from both eat a lot of rice.

What similarities do you see between them?

I see radical differences in the footwork, the use of center, angles, body mechanics, how they employ weapons, ranges, how levels are employed and a dozen other basic things.

As for WC and Silat, all I can say is that there are many, many styles of Silat. The ones I'm familiar with are not much like WC. There may be others that are.

 

[arnisador]

The trapping is the most obvious thing. Close-in stick styles tend to trap and block-the-block in a way similar to what WC is known for--the pak sau, lop sau, etc. These aren't just specific moves I'm referring to but rather a whole strategy of getting in close and getting several quick hits in on your opponent to stun/off-balance him before the big blow, removing obstructions (we use exactly that term in Modern Arnis) as we go along.

Stances and footwork are generally different, though you might be surprised...take a very close-in style like Balintawak Eskrima and you'll see weight-shifted-back stances and more linear footwork. That style emphasizes punyo ("poke-poke" or butt-end of the stick) strikes that will come right down the center and one defends it in a somewhat similar way. Certainly, lots of simultaneous block-and-defense (use of both hands at once for defending and counterstriking) appears in each, and the need for punches at a short range and with limited twist of the torso (your stick may be holding anothre stick away from you so you can't put your whole body weight into a left cross without losing that, making a WC-style punch or snake strike a good option as a distraction for you to change hand positions). Not blocking outside your body is always a good idea, but WC's approach matches well with setting up a stick-based defense around your body.

For a FMA at long range, and often at medium, there are many fewer similarities. Certainly, the way some WC ideas are incorporated in JKD is much closer to the FMA feel, for so many reasons. But training WC will help your FMA in close. I'm less sure about the other way around.

Certainly, I agree that you can find many differences also. But the success of JKD with WC and the FMA (and much else) mixed in is one piece of evidence that they can be mixed successfully. I recommend studying some WC to FMAers--the focus on the trapping hands and related punch/block material will help.

 

[Danny T]

As to commonalities in wing chun and fma, it would depend upon which filipino martial art you are looking at. I'm continually bewilder how so many seem to consider FMAs as all the same yet don't do the same for JMA or CMA. I would agree that many FMAs appear similar but the same certainly can be stated for many CMAs as well as JMAs.

When looking a Pekiti-Tirsia for instance many of the largo range and some of the medio range movements seem to have little similarities to WC however the principles of controling the center, angling and face are very much the same especially when in corto range. Elbow down to control center and covering the line become previlent. The trapping aspects are very similar though there is a bit more of circlar movement as the body moves once contact is made. I do have some training is several other FMAs and at a low level again there are appearances that it is very different yet as one progress and the movements move from a gross action into smaller and smaller movements one sees more similarities again especially at the very close ranges.

Long range movements provide for greater footwork and angles. Close range the angle are still there however they are reduce in length and one has to face into the opponent otherwise the back and kidneys become very hard to defend. In espada y daga action much of what one can get away with at long range become detrimental at medio and corto range. Therefore the footwork and body facing again changes into more of a centerline facing and weight shifting more often over the rear foot rather than the front.

Again it really depends on what art one is looking at even within the FMAs.

Danny

 

[geezer]

As to commonalities in wing chun and fma, it would depend upon which filipino martial art you are looking at.

This is an excellent point. My foundation in the FMA's is with Rene Latosa's "Escrima Concepts". In many ways it is outwardly very different from my experience in Wing Tsun. However the underlying combat concepts in both systems have much in common--efficiency, economy of motion, directness, forward energy, constantly pressing the attack, and so forth. Rene's escrima system places much more emphasis on developing raw power than Wing Tsun and isn't shy about using it, provided you have edge. One commonality not previously noted is the development of "short power". Latosa teaches how to generate explosive power in a very short distance, like Wing Tsun/Chun's famous "one-inch punch". This is teriffic for fighting at close-quarters. Other systems have their own strengths to share. I think Arnisador had it right when he referred to the informality typical of many FMA's. My FMA contacts are usually very open to adapting their arts and happy to share with people from diverse martial arts backgrounds. The Chinese tradition is typically more closed. It was easy for me to move from Wing Tsun to Escrima. Going back has been tougher.

 

[CatNap]

I must be in the minority here. My first WC sifu taught a blend of WC and FMM, specifically Arnis. It was the worst mistake I've ever made to stay with him for as long as I did - it totally messed up my footwork, my rooting, and my WC drills which were seriously flawed as I learned when I found a strictly WC teacher. I had to start all over again. Maybe studying such a different style is fine when you're at an advanced level but I find that FMM is in no way compatiable with WC - but that's my experience. In my case, I've met few WC guys that have studied FMM for long or at all.

 

[arnisador]

I don't think you're wrong. Classical WC footwork and stancework isn't really compatible with the FMA. Some other aspects are though, and WC as adapted into JKD is very compatible with FMA.

As usual, getting a base in one art first is often a good idea!

 

[geezer]

I must be in the minority here. My first WC sifu taught a blend of WC and FMM, specifically Arnis. It was the worst mistake I've ever made to stay with him for as long as I did - it totally messed up my footwork, my rooting, and my WC drills which were seriously flawed as I learned when I found a strictly WC teacher. I had to start all over again. Maybe studying such a different style is fine when you're at an advanced level but I find that FMM is in no way compatiable with WC - but that's my experience. In my case, I've met few WC guys that have studied FMM for long or at all.

I understand your position, and in fact, I didn't begin Escrima until I was already advanced in WT. Like you I found that the footwork in the FMAs I've studied (Latosa and DTE) to be very different from my WT footwork. For example, the escrima stances weight the front foot while WT weights the rear when advancing. I would definitely advise against "blending" the two arts. As I tell my students, you might as well try to take parts from a Porsche and try to tack them onto a Ferrari. You'll just ruin two beautiful pieces of engineering. On the other hand, I feel that Escrima concepts have really enriched my understanding of combat and self-defense. However I do try to keep the techniques of the two arts separate. It would be interesting to ask some of the rest of you who do both Wing Chun/Tsun and FMAs to share your views on how you maintain the integrity of each art.

 

[Danny T]

I understand your position, and in fact, I didn't begin Escrima until I was already advanced in WT. Like you I found that the footwork in the FMAs I've studied (Latosa and DTE) to be very different from my WT footwork. For example, the escrima stances weight the front foot while WT weights the rear when advancing. I would definitely advise against "blending" the two arts. As I tell my students, you might as well try to take parts from a Porsche and try to tack them onto a Ferrari. You'll just ruin two beautiful pieces of engineering. On the other hand, I feel that Escrima concepts have really enriched my understanding of combat and self-defense. However I do try to keep the techniques of the two arts separate. It would be interesting to ask some of the rest of you who do both Wing Chun/Tsun and FMAs to share your views on how you maintain the integrity of each art.

In the early stages of my training in Pekiti I found many differences from Wing Chun. As I progressed into intermediate areas I began to see far more similarities than differences. As I continue to grow today I find WC and Pekiti very similar. The major differences were/are in the methodologies of the training. Because the method of training is different I find maintaining the integrity of the training simple. The art is the individual and in the final analysis one must lose the method or be limited by it.

In a discussion with Tuhon Bill McGrath someone asked about the training of Tuhon’s son and what arts would he most likely have the son train if not Pekiti. There were several discussed with Tuhon strongly resounding about not training Wing Chun. When asked why not WC Tuhon remarked that he felt WC resembled Pekiti so much that he felt it would be better to work something that Pekiti didn’t already have and develop different attributes and abilities.

Now, as to the weight over the front foot or rear foot? At the lower levels of my training in both WC and Pekiti it was always over the rear foot with the front foot being very light or with no weight. As we learned more about our bodies and the proper use of the hips were in-trained and ingrained the weight was shifted more and more forward until it became more of a 50-50 weight distribution. The shifting of the weight from being centered to front foot or back foot became more of a hip movement rather than a body movement. In other words the hip placement is what shifts the body and its center of gravity. Due to the very close quarter nature of Wing Chun and Pekiti their usage of the hip and body are very similar. At the longer ranges due to wider and longer footwork movement there is more weight forward usage. Each usage has its advantages and disadvantages and must be used at the proper range and time.

 

[CuongNhuka]

Now, as to the weight over the front foot or rear foot?

Yah, I still don't even understand how you could advance with weight on your lead foot, unless you were just walking forward. Which would be a no-no from little of the Martial Arts I know.

 

[geezer]

IDue to the very close quarter nature of Wing Chun and Pekiti their usage of the hip and body are very similar. At the longer ranges due to wider and longer footwork movement there is more weight forward usage. Each usage has its advantages and disadvantages and must be used at the proper range and time.

Good points. I have used a similar approach. When fighting at a longer range, with a stick for example, I assume a forward weighted Escrima stance. In close I shift into a Wing Tsun stance, even when using a weapon. The WT really takes over as I move inside.

 

[Seidogirl]

This is an interesting thread. I've been taking karate for 2 years and recently started FMA and I feel like they complement each other really well, but I don't know if I'd take karate and WC at the same time. My best friend's husband teaches WC and I've watched some of his classes and the way they do things is so opposite of what I've learned in karate that I think it would be a mess to try to take them at the same time. He also teaches some FMA though so I figure there must be some connection between WC and FMA or else he wouldn't have FMA as part of the curriculum.

 

[CuongNhuka]

(warning, voice of experince moment), I find that merging techniques between Karate and Wing Chun is all but impossible (well, effectivly, anyway). However, there are few things more amussing then using Shotokan with the concepts form Wing Chun. Really messes with people.

I suppose that's what conversations like this come down to, are you trying to merge technique or concept? Are you trying to merge technique directly, or are you blending? Lots of subtleties to these kinds of conversations.

 

[arnisador]

Yes, Uechi is about the only style of Karate I could imagine fusing with WC, and that's only because Uechi-ryu Karate-do is Southern Chinese Kung Fu, as WC is. Shotokan and WC are very far apart in technique and strategy and power generation and...well, pretty much everything!

 

[Spartan]

While I don't consider kenpo karate to be one of the true karate styles, from what I've heard and read I do see it possible to mesh this art with certain wing chun concepts with very good effect.

 

[geezer]

This is an interesting thread. I've been taking karate for 2 years and recently started FMA and I feel like they complement each other really well, but I don't know if I'd take karate and WC at the same time. My best friend's husband teaches WC and I've watched some of his classes and the way they do things is so opposite of what I've learned in karate that I think it would be a mess to try to take them at the same time. He also teaches some FMA though so I figure there must be some connection between WC and FMA or else he wouldn't have FMA as part of the curriculum.

Good observations, Seidogirl. I agree with Arnisador that hard-style karate and Wing Chun/Tsun are too contradictory in their approaches to be practiced together. Hoewever, I've seen both of these styles work together with Latosa Escrima. The Karateka and Wing Chun/Tsun stylist each adapt the fundamental concepts of Escrima to complement their respective strengths. And, through Escrima, each expands their understanding of combat beyond what is typical for their other system. The Karateka benefit by exploring the fluidity and adaptability of escrima, while the Wing Chun/Tsun stylists expand their knowledge about generating power and working at longer ranges. Both stylists benefit by learning how to adapt everyday objects as weapons to augment their combat effectiveness. For me, the FMAs have made me a better martial artist, and have been a bridge to connect with martial artists from many backgrounds.

 

[Doc_Jude]

Rice. That's about all I see in common between [V,W]ing [Ts,Ch]un and the FMA. The cultures they came from both eat a lot of rice.

What similarities do you see between them?

I see radical differences in the footwork, the use of center, angles, body mechanics, how they employ weapons, ranges, how levels are employed and a dozen other basic things.

As for WC and Silat, all I can say is that there are many, many styles of Silat. The ones I'm familiar with are not much like WC. There may be others that are.

Yep yep.

 

[Seidogirl]

Good observations, Seidogirl. I agree with Arnisador that hard-style karate and Wing Chun/Tsun are too contradictory in their approaches to be practiced together. Hoewever, I've seen both of these styles work together with Latosa Escrima. The Karateka and Wing Chun/Tsun stylist each adapt the fundamental concepts of Escrima to complement their respective strengths. And, through Escrima, each expands their understanding of combat beyond what is typical for their other system. The Karateka benefit by exploring the fluidity and adaptability of escrima, while the Wing Chun/Tsun stylists expand their knowledge about generating power and working at longer ranges. Both stylists benefit by learning how to adapt everyday objects as weapons to augment their combat effectiveness. For me, the FMAs have made me a better martial artist, and have been a bridge to connect with martial artists from many backgrounds.

I REALLY like what you said in the last sentence. I'm very new to FMA, but I can see already how adaptable it is to just about any situation and it's making me a better karateka. I just think it's so cool that FMA is able to do that. In the style of karate that I practice, we don't learn anything about weapons until black belt, so I was so surprised when I started using weapons on the first day in FMA. I asked the instructor and he said, "Filipinos are born with a weapon in our hands" so I was glad to be able to learn to use weapons and as you said, "through Escrima, each expands their understanding of combat beyond what is typical for their other system". This is so true! I feel like I'm getting from escrima what I'm not getting from karate and it's making me a more complete martial artist.

I originally wanted to take Wing Chun as my first MA, but my friend lives too far from me for me to be able to take classes from her husband, so I settled on karate since the dojo is right near me. I don't regret taking karate at all and I've met some wonderful people, but I do question it's effectiveness for self-defense. Escrima has everything I'm looking for and seems to be a more complete MA.

 

[arnisador]

I REALLY like what you said in the last sentence. I'm very new to FMA, but I can see already how adaptable it is to just about any situation and it's making me a better karateka.

I have heard this a lot. The FMAs are good for Karateka in terms of additional weapons work but also, what I hear more often, is the footwork/mobility the FMAs bring out.

By the same token, I started out in Karate and when I started the FMA I was often complimented on my precise stances and solid punches because of it! It works both ways.

The "using weapons to teach empty hand" approach of the FMAs is very different but as you can imagine I am a believer!